Empty chamber for safety - good idea or not?

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I received a letter from Ruger many years ago offering the transfer bar modification to my Super Blackhawk. I chose not to have the gun modified, even though It is reversible. I just wanted It to remain original. I already had been loading only 5 rounds with the hammer down on the empty chamber, so It was no change for me. I don't see the need for that sixth round in a hunting S/A handgun, and when shooting at the range I am shooting 5 round groups anyhow.
 
Howdy

I always find photos to be a big help in explaining these concepts.

This is a photo of an older Smith that was made before hammer blocks were added to the design. The part that has the patent date on it is called the rebound slide. S&W incorporated the rebound slide into their revolvers in 1902 and they still use them. In this photo the rebound slide is in its furthest forward position, pushed there by the coil spring inside it. There is a slight hump at the bottom of the hammer, as well as a hump on the top of the rebound slide. In this photo the hump at the top of the rebound slide has wedged itself under the hump at the bottom of the hammer, forcing the hammer and firing pin back about 1/8". You can see the space in front of the hammer. The gun is incapable of firing in this condition. When the trigger is pulled or the hammer is cocked, the rebound slide is forced back pulling its hump out of the way so the gun can fire.

38MPmechanism.jpg




Sometime later, S&W decided to add an internal hammer block in addition to the hump on the rebound slide, to make their revolvers even safer. The hammer block was pinned inside a slot in the side plate.

reassembled.jpg




This photo shows the hammer block pinned inside the side plate. It was made from a piece of spring steel. The arrow on the left is pointing to a ramp on the hand that would engage a tab on the hammer block. When the trigger rotated and the hand rose, the ramp on the side of the hand pushed the hammer block out of the way. Since it was spring loaded, when the hand returned to its normal position, the hammer block sprung out again to block the hammer.

triggerandsideplatewitharrows.jpg





This system worked out very well until World War Two. In a freak accident, a Victory Model Smith fell to the deck of a destroyer, landed on its hammer, and discharged, killing a sailor. It was a freak accident, but the Navy demanded S&W come up with a solution, which they did in a week's time. Here is the result, the modern S&W hammer block, which is still incorporated in all S&W revolvers today. When the hammer is cocked or the trigger is pulled, the pin on the rebound slide pulls the hammer block down diagonally away from the hammer, allowing the hammer to fall all the way. Notice in this photo, it is actually the hump on the rebound slide that is keeping the hammer rotated back slightly. The hammer block is actually a redundant safety, the hammer is not resting on the hammer block at all.

44handejector4thmodelhammerblock.jpg




In this photo I have removed the hammer block in order to see what is going on underneath it. I am holding back the trigger. This keeps the rebound slide pushed back and the hammer is now free to fall all the way.

44handejector4thmodeltriggerback.jpg



Gotta start another answer to show how unsafe a single action revolver was when fully loaded.
 
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Those are nice pictures, but not what the OP asked about.

What about if you don't have time to pull twice?
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Then you probably should have chosen a faster gun than a DA revolver, if the amount of time you're talking about is so critical.

Every safety procedure or device is a trade off. This isn't a very large trade off. ClickBANG is not a lot slower than BANG, and maybe it will save a life if things don't go as planned.

Of course, everyone always seems to know exactly how those self defense show downs are going to go down. ;)
 
Because of their solid frame, it is impossible to see inside a Colt Single Action Army without cutting viewing windows in the frame. However S&W revolvers had removable sideplates.

Here are some photos of a Smith and Wesson Russian Model.

Sorry, the photo is a little bit out of focus, but in this photo the hammer is all the way down as it would be after the gun had fired. You can just see the firing pin poking through the recoil shield.

hammerdown_zps22c3b804.jpg




This is the so called 'safety position' most single action revolvers had. The hammer has been pulled back about 1/8" and the tip of the trigger has popped into a notch in the hammer. The notch has a lip on it, trapping the trigger so it cannot be pulled. Unfortunately the cross section of the parts is quite thin and they are not very strong. It would not take too much of a blow to the hammer spur to shear off either the hammer notch, or the tip of the trigger, causing the gun to fire.

halfcock_zpsd66dbdee.jpg



And here is the hammer at full cock, ready to fire.

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Although Colt parts were very differently shaped than these S&W parts, the 'safety notch' was no stronger. That is why it has been recommended for over 100 years to keep the hammer down on an empty chamber in a single action revolver with a Colt type lockup, including modern replicas and the old Three Screw Ruger single action revolvers.

The modern design of Ruger single action revolvers that incorporates a transfer block makes them completely safe ro carry fully loaded.
 
Now THAT'S what I call an in-depth explanation of the inner workings of a revolvers' safety mechanism! Holy smokes!:eek: Thanks for posting the pics. And thanks again to everyone else who contributed to the conversation. It helped quite a bit with my question.

Mike
 
I'm not sure if it's been explicitly stated yet, but a proper holster is also a big part of safely carrying any gun.

If you're just shoving a gun down your pants or throwing it into a bag with a bunch of stuff, then accidental discharges are more likely.

When carrying a revolver, a holster can cover the the trigger, limit access to the hammer, and/or limit the movement of the hammer. So these can be viewed as "safeties" as well.

Practice is a huge thing as well, but that's been mentioned.
 
I'm pretty sure I started the thread in the Tactics and Training section that the OP stated he was reading about "Condition 3." Unfortunately, that thread was closed because it was getting a little snipey :(

At any rate, I spent this whole past weekend running about town carrying my Smith 686 - with all 7 charge holes filled. It's funny, I haven't been able to bring myself to carrying condition 1 with a semi-auto; but have no problem with a revolver. I guess I'm just a revolver guy. Fair enough.

The thought of carrying my revolver with the "next" round empty has never crossed my mind. Wouldn't do it. No way.
 
I'm not sure if it's been explicitly stated yet, but a proper holster is also a big part of safely carrying any gun.
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Along with the condition of the holster. I believe there was a documented case of an incident where a loose piece of leather on a well used holster got inside the trigger guard of a Glock while reholstering. It managed to depress the trigger safety, and trigger causing a discharge. Not intended to be a slam against Glock. Just a point for the OP that there are so many things to be aware of.
 
Modern revolvers do not require the user to keep one chamber empty.
Modern revolvers have a mechanism to prevent the firing pin from striking the cartridge primer whether it be by "hammer block safety," or by "rebounding hammer" design.
Any MODERN, double-action revolver is safe to carry with all chambers filled.
 
"When carrying a revolver, a holster can cover the the trigger, limit access to the hammer, and/or limit the movement of the hammer. So these can be viewed as "safeties" as well."--ckpj99
Good point. The 'Tom Threepersons' style revolver holster with the trigger completely exposed always made me uncomfortable.
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"It's funny, I haven't been able to bring myself to carrying condition 1 with a semi-auto; but have no problem with a revolver."--NickCS
With a thumb strap under the hammer, I'm OK with Condition 1.
 
Yeah, I read it. Keeping an empty chamber in the chamber next to the one in battery in addition to the one under the hammer is ridiculous.

That's why I posted all the photos, to show that a modern revolver is completely safe when carried fully loaded. Keeping an empty next to the one under the hammer is just silly.
 
It appears to me that people are just reading the OP, but not reading through the thread to see how the questions have already been answered repeatedly.
 
This topic is one of the oldest and most asked in Internet venues.

It ranks with 9 vs 45 or what gun should I buy my wife/GF/grandmother.

I think this thread has answered it with the standard and sensible answers:

1. Buy a modern gun that has the appropriate safety features to prevent accidental discharge if carried 'chambered' - either a semi or revolver.

2. If you are scared of the gun such that you think that you will shoot yourself or others by accident when carrying a chambered gun - don't chamber and take the tactical risks. Or go get trained to reduce that risk.

Closed.
 
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