Easter Bunny Shoot

*sigh* So much for trying to be polite.

I couldnt agree more about "raping the land" by humans. But, you need to look at what you say. The rabbit was introduced by Humans. Therefore, it is humans responsibility to deal with the problem.

Mate, your comment about if "they were truely a problem they would die out" is astoundingly naive. Rabbits just wont up and die once they reach a large number- they will maintain at whatever level the land will support them- to the exclusion of all else.

And honestly mate, I just about fell off my chair laughing when you talked about introducing natural predators into New Zealand. That has been tried! Stoats and Weasels were introduced in the 1920's soley to deal with rabbits- and guess what? they would mauch rather tuck into the native flightless birds than Peter Rabbit. Been there, done that, abject failure. And as for introducing wolves! Your grasp of nature is , I am afraid to say, lacking. One cannot introduce snakes (!!) into a country that does not have them lightly. (its too cold for snakes anyway) Do you know where New Zealand is?

There is no possibility whatsoever of rabbits ever becoming extinct in New Zealand. Indeed, in the 1930's there was a serious attempt to completely eradicate them from the Country- kill every, single one. It cant be done.

There are extremely serious penalties for killing the large number of endangered birds in this country- endangered in part because of the introduced animals. To give you an idea- and maybe you should google rabbits and australia to get an idea- there is no season whatsoever for introduced rabbits, possums , deer and so on. The only game in this country that has a season is waterfowl. Everything else can be shot all year round.

Finally mate, your logic is lacking. It is OK to shoot one rabbit- but not 900. So what do you say? should I only shoot one a year? Is that your argument? Its OK to kill one rabbit but wrong to shoot more? I estimate this year alone I have shot about 750 rabbits. Have I reached my bag limit?

And to suggest this give hunters a bad name- this competition was covered in all the national newspapers- see that URL I posted- and the main TV news. I doubt any Kiwis got upset by 14,000 rabbits getting shot. In fact, we gave hunters a good name.

From your NBC:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12265571/
 
He is not amused........:eek:

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Revenge of the Rabbits :eek:
 

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Proselytizing for PETA, lc?
When you find mouse poop in your pantry, you set a trap, in order to kill the mouse. You clean house, because if you don't do so the pests overrun your habitat and make your home unliveable.
The appropriate target for your distain is/are the idiot(s) who released the pests on the land in the first place. 'Course, they are all dead by now - Death from Afar is just part of the clean-up crew.
Bet you're a city boy. Sorry that you've become so disconnected from reality you conflate pest control with murder.
Why does it matter that there are a million rabbits or only one to change your attitude toward the life of an individual rabbit?
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News alert: Because a million is a lot more than just one.
Absolutely pathetic. Hey, if we humans are the problem, at least demonstrate your sincerity by offering to take the first step off the pier.
 
My apologies...

Hey, if we humans are the problem, at least demonstrate your sincerity by offering to take the first step off the pier.
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I got carried away with his anti-human rant and it was rude to have suggested that.
But I still think he's entirely disconnected and is no authority on the problem our friends in NZ face.
 
leadcouncil-
Care to tell me what what leads you to believe coyotes are "rare" in N.A.?

As for wolves, they weren't excipated from most of their range because of people wanting to go kill something, but because of fear (even if that fear was unreasonable which is a different debate.) Reintroductions have been successsfull to point of being counter productive. (Hint: you might want to do some research before decide to try to counter this point) And yes I know that wolves will most likely never repopulate a large chunk of their original range for the simple fact that its its not compatable with the modifications humans have made to the landscape. Anyway, around it wolves are still not "rare" in N.A.

Bears: same story as wolves. Again we aren't going to see grizzly bears over much of their traditional landscape because of ecosystem changes in addition to the fact that grizzlies don't play well with humans. In areas that can support Grizzly populations: Canada, Alaska, Yellowstone, the Northern Rockies, etc; research tends to show they are doing quite well.

Black Bears- Whiskey Tango Foxtrot is your deffinition of rare Mate? Rare in Iowa? Yes. Rare in N.A.? Your on crack

Mountain Lions? I don't think you want to go there.

Whales: Research market hunting. I'll give you a hint: its the same thing that did in passenger pigeons and pretty much crashed the waterfowl, deer, and turkey populations of much of the U.S. Hate to burst your bubble but it wasn't a bunch of "good ole boys" sayin "hey lets go out and kill a whale today, that sounds like fun."


Its also nice to know that you "make every attempt to purchase meets, eggs, etc. that were humanely raised." Do you ask your t-bone when you pick it up at the store if it was humanely raised? How bout the guy behind the meat counter cause I bet he would know.

Do yourself a favor and do some research on the problems Death from Afar and his mates are having with rabbits, cats, and other non-native species. And no, your PETA newletter doesn't count as "research"
 
It all boils down to a wasteful attitude and knowing right from wrong, my man...

(This text is copied from a similar post about varmint hunting that I wrote in today. I'm pasting the relevant text here and adding other thoughts.)

It's no secret that I'm against the wholesale murder of these "varmit" creatures so "man" can get his kicks or whatever he says to justify their destruction.

Nothing gives us the right to be so wasteful with natures' gifts of life and resources. Yet, we are. I understand the food chain and partake in it too. But I am not wasteful. Waste is a concept of greed and selfishness and it's just a shame.

Yes, we humans continue to really **** up nature, don't we. We've done a fine job of overharvesting the oceans of fish and polluting the seas, lakes and streams with poisons produced from much of the garbage we don't and never did need. And, we are extremely wasteful. Over the last 100 years we've been particularly grand in the US of eliminating the larger animals of the food chain such as coyotes, wolves, and predatory birds, etc. due to our careless waste of these "varmints" lives. They were inconvenient and in the way. So, instead of studying them and peacefully co-habitating with them, our ignorant ancestors killed them; much like we slaughtered the Native Americans and enslaved Africans. What a proud history, huh? In just a couple hundred years we stole this nation, destroyed its human inhabitants, over forested the landscape, and polluted the air, water, and soil with our filth, and have driven into near extinction any species which didn't serve a purpose or taste good. So, since we've murdered in cold blood all of the natural predators, it's no surprise that their food (the smaller varmits) begin to overpopulate. So our reaction could either be to reintroduce the natural predators OR more wholesale murder of the smaller varmits. Seems that our collective failure to understand the food chain will aid in our downfall, or at least succeed at the extinction of all but a handful of animals that we keep in cages to study or eat.

I implore any of you to consider your individual actions on a larger scale. Imagine you were your ancestors looking out over the great plains seeing amazing wild buffalo and scores of other wild animals. At one time beautiful wolves roamed the land; now they are fighting extinction becuase they were plentiful varmits. It's really quite shameful that we've practiacally destroyed so many of the beautiful resources which we have been given.

Before you judge me as anti-American or a PETA member, let me put your mind at ease. I"m as red blooded of an American as they come. I'm just not always proud of the actions of my fellow man. Am I guilty. Yes. Am I a consumer who uses harmful products. Yes. Am I a carnivore? Yes. Am I proud of it. No. Do I make attempts to NOT consume as much, to not be as wasteful and to recycle and help sustain the lives other creatures and also to eat food that is humanely processed where possible. Yes. For example, last week I rescued an injured Malard Duck which had a broken leg and delivered it to the Avian Rescue in Denver. Some of you would kill a mouse in your house. I am of the viewpoint that if I can capture it alive with a live trap, I'll do just that and release it into a field. I have to say that I've rescued a handful of injured animals in my life and that golden feeling of SAVING a life is a feeling that no amount of money can buy; it's a feeling that some of you will never understand. I pity those of you who truly enjoy murder of any creature for the sake of murder. Your wasteful attitudes mirror those of our ancestors which have delivered us to the point in history where we lose a species of animal to extinction at an alarming rate. Someday there will be no more of X animal that you so courageously shot. I hope you'll be satisfied.

Being one to objectively see both sides.... I propose that where there is a problem with rodents or varmints the solution is to reintroduce the varmints natural predators e.g. owls, snakes, birds of prey, coyotes, wolves, etc. Problem solved. Teach people to be able to co-exist with nature rather than exterminating it. As humans we have a great responsibility to pass along a pleasant world to live in and I, for one, would like my ancestors to be able to see wild animals outside zoos and menus.

As far as wolves, coyotes, whales, deer and other animals are concerned: Each has their own tragic stories. Bottom line is that whether it is sport killing, being plain ignorant or being wasteful or greedy it's still W-R-O-N-G. I feel sympathy for a thinking person that cannot see that wasteful murder for the sake of entertainment (clearly people here enjoy the "hunt") under the guise of doing some public service is ethically WRONG.

Taken a different angle... maybe it's not the animals that are the problem. Maybe it's the HUMANS that are the sprawling vermin that need to be controlled... I'm not advocating anything nor do I believe it to be necessarily true, I'm simply stirring the pot a little with some controversial thoughts. To take the debate one step further, when it gets to be to the point where we are constantly battling with RABBITS and OPOSSUM and PRAIRIE DOGS for resources, maybe we ought to put on the brakes, step back and examine the situation. What the **** is going on. WE, collectively, have TOO MANY people! We have too many roads, too many buildings, too many parking lots, too many cars, too many homes, too many of EVERYTHING. Where the heck is a wild animal suppose to live without fear of being too close to humans? Without being hunted at night with flashlights from pickup trucks? Without being sniped from 300 meters and left for dead?

As far as the state of affairs for any of the animals you've listed. Name all of the reintroduction or recovery statistics you'd like. The truth is that it is NEWSWORTHY when someone sees a bear or wolf in COLORADO, which was crawling with them a couple centuries ago! That is NOT a good state of affairs my friend. I've been here for nearly 8 years and spend a decent amount of time outside and in the mountains. I have heard coyotes only a few times, have only seen one or two, and have never seen a bear. I find that terribly sad.

If WE could understand their plight and communcate effectively with them, and if given the choice, I'm willing to bet they'd prefer HUMANS to vacate.

Lastly, Websters dictionary defines "Varmint; Vermin: a person or animal regarded as troublesome or objectionable." Interesting.
 
Mate, you still havent answered a single point I made- what is so unethical about shooting in large numbers an introduced pest that is a major risk to native species?

Put this another way- what other options are there? If you can name a single sensable one, you would find full time employment down here in a flash.
 
Lead, you haven't been wearing your helmet lately have you? Your ignorance of the problems caused by an introduced species is considerable for a learned man. When dealing with an introduced species that is making an extreme ecologic impact, the last thing one should do is introduce additional alien species. You suggested bringing in snakes, whoa really bad advice. Do you know what a brown tree snake is? Check this site for the problem one little snake can do to an island ecosystem. www.fort.usgs.gov/resources/education/bts-home.asp

It seems that whenever someone proclaims their love of animals and the environment, they forget that humans are a part of it! Is a beaver dam that floods 70 acres of hardwoods looked at in the same way as when humans change their habitat? If not,why not? Didn't the beaver just kill thousands of trees and flood the homes of millions of earth dwelling insects and animals? That is natural is the wrong answer if you don't say the same thing about peoples' impact on the earth.

We seem to be awfully egotistical when we reference our ability to impact this planet. A volcano puts out more hydrocarbons in one eruption than we can in years of burning fossil fuels. We may screw up the planet for our own use, but we can not destroy all life on it. No different than the impact the beaver has, just a grander scale. The forces of life will continue on and that's just natural.
 
Taken a different angle... maybe it's not the animals that are the problem. Maybe it's the HUMANS that are the sprawling vermin that need to be controlled... I'm not advocating anything nor do I believe it to be necessarily true, I'm simply stirring the pot a little with some controversial thoughts.
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Bolding mine.

I call BS. You absolutely believe this drivel. You've made the same point in more than one post in this thread... and I'm sure elsewhere.

Why don't you take it upon yourself to start cleansing the earth of the human filth?

I feel sympathy for a thinking person that cannot see that wasteful murder for the sake of entertainment (clearly people here enjoy the "hunt") under the guise of doing some public service is ethically WRONG.
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Own any leather shoes, belts, coats... et cetera? Noooo, of course you don't. :rolleyes: Oh, I see it's righteous to murder for fashion, but not to save the land from being overrun by pests.
 
Yes, we should all just sit around a campfire and peacefully coexist with our animal brothers. Like the little girl in the Cherokee National Forest who was trying to peacefully coexist until a black bear killed her earlier this week. Like the farmers in NZ who can't grow crops as they see fit because of a pestilence of rabbits.

The ability to use our property the way we want, to grow crops or herds, etc., is our right. By your attitude you apparently believe that farmers shouldn't destroy reintroduced wolves who bring down their flock or herd. You also probably object to the killing of the bear that killed the little girl. You obviously think the rabbits' rights are superior to the farmers' rights to use their land as they see fit.

The problem is that you don't even have the courage of your convictions, that you eat the critters you mourn for. You most likely wear leather too. Isn't that supremely hypocritical?

I suggest that you become very successful and make a lot of money. That way you can buy a lot of land. Then you can create the place you apparently dream of. Just don't try to impose your miniscule minority views on the rest of us.
 
about the rabbits,
Sorry for the damage to you country side in NZ. Lots of us ,I am sure, wish we could bring a few rifles and help. keep up the good work..

for the anti-gun/hunter in our mist,
aren't you lost and in the wrong forum?

I learned a long time ago, among other things, to never argue with fools.
 
Three points:

1: The SOLUTION to your rabbit plague is to REINTRODUCE NATURAL PREDATORS AND THEN LET THEM STICK AROUND and don't shoot them! Seems that it would be a great feeding ground for some wolves or coyotes or snakes or predatory birds.

2: YES, I do eat meet. However, the leather I wear is from cows that I've eaten. The chicken and fish that I eat has byproducts that go into dog food that my dog eats. Is this a perfect world? Certainly far from it. I just try to have a more ying/yang attitude about life than many, including to my disappointment fellow gun rights enthusiasts who get a thrill from what I view as cold blooded murder on a grand scale.

3: Regarding property rights: It's a tough ethical dilemma (for some, clearly not for others) but it's clear that if rabbits are destroying crops than the introduction of predators would fix the problem. Is it always practical to not kill those that prey on your property. No. The PROBLEM I have is that you rednecks get such a hoot out of blasting critters as fast as you can reload without a single moment of remorse. I sincerely believe that wasteful and destructive attitude is in need of psychiatric help!

A major problem with humans is our collective ignorance and wasteful attitude. It's interesting that I'm accused of being the ignorant one here, yet it's YOUR wasteful attitudes that have contributed to the wholesale downward spiral and destruction of the earth, environments and species of life. In Denver the wise city council has arbitrarily placed a ban on a certain breed of dog for its alleged violent behavior based on a few media intense news reports. The dog is not substatially statistically more violent than others... but despite this and logical arguments to in support of the dog, these dogs are rounded up and destroyed based on one characteristic; their breed. It doesn't matter that they may be the best dogs or pets in the world. IF they look a certain way, they're destroyed by the hundreds. Now, I ask you, isn't that ignorant, senseless, and wasteful?

Do we have property rights? Of course. Are we mightier than all creatures? Yes, in many ways. Do we have the power of life and death at our whim over all creatures? Absolutely. Can you exercise that power ethically, humanely, compassionately, and wisely? I certainly try to. Do you?
 
PLEASE, leadcounsel, learn some FACTS! There WERE no predators for the introduced rabbits, in the very beginning! That's WHY the rabbits are a problem. SO: How do you REINTRODUCE what was not there in the first place?

Here's my deal for you: Write no more of your opinions until you've gone back and reviewed this thread for the questions people have asked you.

Answer those questions as best you can.

I will delete any further rudeness toward you. I will delete any more of your opinions until you've answered the questions.

Seems to me that's fair to all of us.

TO ALL: Comments WILL meet the standards of TFL. This is a worthwhile thread and I'm glad leadcounsel showed up. But act like grownups.

:), Art
 
The SOLUTION to your rabbit plague is to REINTRODUCE NATURAL PREDATORS AND THEN LET THEM STICK AROUND and don't shoot them! Seems that it would be a great feeding ground for some wolves or coyotes or snakes or predatory birds.
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Mate, have you read what I have said? There were never any natural predators here. Never. The only native animal in the entire country that may eat rabbits is the rare and endangered native falcon, who have a very small range, and that is in the Southern Alps...not farm land. There have never been wolves, coyotes or snakes here. Ever. And, as I pointed out, all the animals that were introduced to look after rabbits tend to chomp on native birds instead ( most of which are flightless, like the Kiwi itself) .

Do you actually know where new zealand is? (It is not part of the continental united states, which you seem to think)
 
Lead:
Please read the link I provided for your elucidation and stop making the inane suggestion to introduce natural predators for eradication of the rabbits. There were no natural predators there to begin with, thus the over population of the equally unnatural rabbits. It clearly shows how the introduction of a foreign species creates ecological bedlam. Does one pour gasoline on a kerosene fire?

Your argument is circular, bring in predators for the rabbits and then what do you do with the predators? What then if they decide a naturally occurring species is easier prey or their numbers become to large? I guess we then bring more predators to eat the first predators and then we....see what I mean?
 
leadcounsel,

gun rights enthusiasts who get a thrill from what I view as cold blooded murder on a grand scale.
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Sorry, but if you check Black's Law Dictionary, murder is
"The unlawful killing of a human being by another with malice aforethought, either express or implied."
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You should have known that. Critters ain't human, at least in any scientific or legal way. Why are you using such inflammatory language counselor?:rolleyes: Objection! Sustained! :D
 
I have no problem shooting wild house cats that eat native birds here in the states.

I think you guys in NZ have something there. You have made pest removal into a sport!

Me and a few Friends do this spear fishing for carp (fish from Europe that is now in Michigan lakes). For a time you could shoot these 40 lb fish in shalow rivers when they would follow native spicies up to eat their eggs, I heard that shotguns where a blast!

Its also great that you have people using the rabbit meat instead of just leaving it.



As for the PETA person here, I have no idea what their problem is. But they have no idea how stupid they are looking. Rabbits are a HUGE problem in AS and NZ, they were brought in for sport hunting about a hundred years ago (in AS anyway), but no one ever though how big a pest they would become.
 
Firstly, I am glad that I have not offended TFL members for the most part. I am sorry that LC has the view that this is some bizarre ritual whereby we all get off on slaughtering millions of bunnies, but I really dont think he has grasped the numbers we have here. The mere fact 400 guys can shoot 14,000 rabbits in 24 hours should give anyone an idea of the problem.

From this http://www.csiro.au/communication/rabbits/qa2.htm website:

Wild rabbits and the environment

The impact of wild rabbits is particularly serious in dry inland areas where trees and shrubs do not germinate regularly. Rabbits are effective at finding and eating tree seedlings and shrubs. Where native species of trees are planted in farm afforestation programs, rabbits (even at low densities) can destroy up to 90 per cent of seedlings. Many species of arid-zone trees and shrubs are at risk of extinction unless rabbit numbers are permanently reduced to much lower levels.

Wild rabbits are implicated in the decline of many species of native animals. In the south-east of South Australia, the wombat population declined markedly once rabbits invaded the area. By increasing grazing pressure, rabbits have changed the types of feed available for wombats: adult wombats can cope, but not the young. The bilby (or the rabbit-eared bandicoot) was once common throughout southern Australia. We now know that bilbies usually disappear from an area within 10 years of rabbits arriving. The bilby is now endangered and only found in isolated areas of central Australia where rabbits are absent. Wild rabbits also affect native wildlife by supporting feral predators particularly the European fox.

Problems caused by rabbits often go unrecognised by the untrained eye until it is too late. Brian Cooke is Australia's leading rabbit ecologist. His article, 'Rabbits - Indefensible on any grounds' (Cooke 1991), emphasises the impact of wild rabbits on Australia's environment.

* In arid and semi-arid parts of Australia rabbits at a density of only one to two per hectare could find and eat all Acacia seedlings (Lange and Graham 1983).
* For the mallee area, where rabbits at a density of little more than three per hectare were eliminated, all sheoaks Allocasuarina verticillata regenerated (Cooke 1987).
* Rabbit densities of six to seven per hectare are common in arid zones.
* Henzell (1988) estimated losses at $17.4 million annually in livestock production due to competition with rabbits in South Australia's arid zone.

David Lord, a primary producer in western New South Wales, can trace damage caused by wild rabbits and the enormous effort and cost involved in rabbit control through experience on his property, Thackaringa Station.

* Rabbit populations of less than three per hectare can maintain the dominance of introduced plants. But when rabbits are excluded, native grasses can replace introduced species. (Annual species cannot withstand drought conditions, so they dry up and expose the soil to winds which can result in dust storms). Perennials are well adapted to the harsh environment but not the intense grazing pressure of the relentless and voracious appetite of rabbits. Perennials (bluebush and saltbush) are high in protein so are better for livestock.
* In "Johnson's paddock" which has a carrying capacity of only 600 sheep 2,000 warrens have been ripped. The number of rabbits per warren vary from 10 to 50, depending on the amount of green feed available. The 2,000 warrens could therefore house 20,000 to 100,000 rabbits. Ten rabbits eat as much as one sheep, the equivalent of at least 2,000 sheep in just one paddock. That's bad news for the land.
* Average warren density on Thackaringa is about one warren every 2.5 hectares. Even if only one rabbit lived in each warren, the population would be enough to prevent the regeneration of native seedlings.
* There is a whole suite of plant species and dependent animals threatened with severe range-contraction or extinction. Rabbits make this problem worse.
* The value of lost production due to rabbits is more than $115 million annually just for the wool industry in Australia. A new study now puts the total cost to the agricultural industry at around $600 million per year. This doesn't take into account environmental damage and the effects on the sustainability of future landuse.
* Rabbits pressure native wildlife by competing for food, particularly under drought conditions.
* Rabbits hinder the regeneration of native plant species. Rabbits eat more seedlings per year in Australia than could be planted in a decade of tree-planting. They also select the most nutritious parts of plants.
* Rabbits can graze plants to ground level and eat roots, which sheep and cattle can't do because of their different grazing abilities.
* Areas heavily grazed by rabbits can lose all perennial plant species like bluebush and salt-bush which can lead to woody weed invasion, pasture instability and reduced carrying capacity of the land.
* Rabbits are implicated in the decline of many species of native animals. For example, there are 13 species of native animals known to be extinct in the Broken Hill region. According to Danielle Ayers of the National Parks and Wildlife Service, these include the western quoll, pig-footed bandicoot, golden bandicoot, western barred bandicoot, bilby, greater stick-nest rat, long-tailed hopping mouse, plains rat, long-haired rat, and probably burrowing bettong, brush-tailed bettong, eastern hare-wallaby and gould's mouse and another 22 species are now endangered.
* The benefits to the land from reduced stocking rates will not be realised unless factors such as rabbits, woody weeds, and destruction of native animals and habitat by feral animals can be brought under control.

Rabbits in New Zealand

Rabbits occupy 55 per cent of New Zealand, from sea level to 2000 metres. In the drier tussock grasslands rabbits have denuded land causing soil erosion and loss of species. In other parts of New Zealand rabbits compete for pasture and impede the establishment of tree crops.

While predators, particularly ferrets, are an important means of rabbit control, they are also known to be infected with Tb (one of the country's greatest agricultural threats) in many areas. If it proves necessary to control ferrets to help reduce Tb in livestock, a significant increase in rabbit control will be required. The maintenance of ferret populations by rabbits also affects the conservation of native species, particularly ground nesting or burrowing species such as penguins.

Most rabbit control in New Zealand is by poisoning using aerial and ground applied baits (1080 and pindone) and shooting. In some areas rabbits now avoid baits and 1080 poison, reducing the effectiveness of these methods.

The cost of rabbit control remains high (over $20 per hectare in some areas) and all control costs are met by landholders. The national production losses and control costs are a minimum of $22 million annually.

Attempts to introduce myxomatosis to New Zealand in 1951/52 were unsuccessful. The failure of the disease to establish was probably due to a lack of biting insects which are an important means of transmitting the myxoma virus. An application to again release the myxoma virus (and rabbit flea) was made in 1993. This application was declined partly due to animal welfare concerns and because initial results of research on rabbit calicivirus in Australia were suggesting that it could be a more effective and humane biological control for wild rabbits.
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One thing I've found about those who get emotional about human interactions with the environment on an individual basis is that they have almost no technical knowledge of environmental issues. I'm an engineer by profession, so what rips me out of the frame is the resistance to learning facts and the meanings thereof.

An example: An elementary school teacher in Austin, Texas, was found to have been telling her fifth graders that the whitetail deer was an endangered species due to all that hunting. About that same time, there were numerous articles in the paper and coverage on television of the way that the northwestern edges of the metro area were being overrun with deer--mostly due to the lack of hunting and the absence of any predators.

Maybe it's our educational system. When you point out that deer, rabbits, rats and hogs have an exponential population growth rate, you get blank looks and no understanding of the meaning.

Art
 
Art, you should come downunder. We can shoot stuff and laugh like maniacs at the sight of those cute, mangled bunnies. ( last bit was a joke BTW)
 
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