Dumb newbie question
- Thread starter circa81
- Start date
Holy Crap this thread is funny.
I don't know why I feel like trying to explain what so many have already...
dude when firing a revolver in Double Action it NEVER self cocks EVER. no shorter lighter nothing same pull again and again.
Single action is where you cock the hammer separately thus removing a stage of the trigger pull. This WILL make the trigger lighter and shorter. (you will see the trigger move and cylinder turn as you cock the hammer) but after that shot it will revert back to a Double Action pull.
DA/SA in a revolver means It is DAO but has the ability of manually being placed in Single Action.
DA/SA in a pistol means DA first pull SA there after.
I don't know why I feel like trying to explain what so many have already...
dude when firing a revolver in Double Action it NEVER self cocks EVER. no shorter lighter nothing same pull again and again.
Single action is where you cock the hammer separately thus removing a stage of the trigger pull. This WILL make the trigger lighter and shorter. (you will see the trigger move and cylinder turn as you cock the hammer) but after that shot it will revert back to a Double Action pull.
DA/SA in a revolver means It is DAO but has the ability of manually being placed in Single Action.
DA/SA in a pistol means DA first pull SA there after.
circa81 said:
No, because you have to release the trigger nearly 100% for the trigger to re-engage the hammer sear. Re-pull the trigger before this point "short strokes" the trigger.
circa81 said:
Yeah, you'll see a lot of that on youtube. DA is harder to shoot well, so you'll see less of it if you do a youtube revolver search. If you want to see some good DA shooting, search youtube for "IDPA revolver" or "USPSA revolver". Here's one for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v_TbAOUOoE&context=C3a021e0ADOEgsToPDskJ0XJeTFmAev8_Zv0MOSNLb
Pvt. Pyle said:
The SA sear breaks with less movement, so it's easier to release the shot while maintaining your sight picture. Most don't appreciate the Great SA Compromise, though: The hammer has a longer arc to travel when shot in SA, which presents 2 problems. The first is a longer lock time - the time between when the sear breaks and the shot goes off. The longer the lock time, the more time the shooter has to disturb the sights before the shot actually leaves the barrel.
Second, the longer the arc, the more oompf the hammer has as it hits the frame, and the more it jostles the muzzle & alters sight alignment. Below's alink to a video demo of this effect. The revo in the video has a radically bobbed hammer, and is dry fired in DA. This gun is reliable with anything I've shot through it, and is a real tack driver, help in part by reduced hammer strike.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmy5mkjpUNI
Pvt. Pyle said:
Chill, Pyle.
Maybe this will help...and remember that the terms DA and SA apply only to the trigger action....
Double action (DA); the trigger performs Two functions, cocking, AND releasing the hammer. This is true for both revolver and DA autopistols.
Single Action (SA); the trigger only performs ONE function, releasing the hammer (or striker, in a striker fired auto pistol).
Now, here's where it gets a little confusing, until you get to know handguns a bit better...
DA handguns also operate in two different modes, DA or SA. In a DA revolver (like a S&W, for example) you have a choice of how to fire it. Starting with the hammer down, you can choose to fire it DA mode (just pull the trigger, the hammer will cock and be released,firing the gun), OR you can fire it SA mode (where you cock the hammer, THEN pull the trigger, releasing the hammer and firing the gun).
Either way, after the gun fires, the hammer is down (NOT COCKED).
With a DA autopistol, loading the chamber leaves the hammer cocked, and the gun ready to fire in SA (single action) mode. Each time you fire, the slide will recock the hammer, leaving you ready to fire the next round, in SA mode.
DA autos also have a safety or decocker, which lowers the hammer, leaving the gun ready to fire in DA (double action -meaning the trigger cocks and drops the hammer when pulled) mode, IF you have a decocker, and ready to fire in DA mode, but on safe, if you have a hammer dropping safety.
DAO (DA Only) means there is no provision built in for single action fire. Every shot must be done DA mode, with the trigger cocking and then dropping the hammer when pulled.
Double action (DA); the trigger performs Two functions, cocking, AND releasing the hammer. This is true for both revolver and DA autopistols.
Single Action (SA); the trigger only performs ONE function, releasing the hammer (or striker, in a striker fired auto pistol).
Now, here's where it gets a little confusing, until you get to know handguns a bit better...
DA handguns also operate in two different modes, DA or SA. In a DA revolver (like a S&W, for example) you have a choice of how to fire it. Starting with the hammer down, you can choose to fire it DA mode (just pull the trigger, the hammer will cock and be released,firing the gun), OR you can fire it SA mode (where you cock the hammer, THEN pull the trigger, releasing the hammer and firing the gun).
Either way, after the gun fires, the hammer is down (NOT COCKED).
With a DA autopistol, loading the chamber leaves the hammer cocked, and the gun ready to fire in SA (single action) mode. Each time you fire, the slide will recock the hammer, leaving you ready to fire the next round, in SA mode.
DA autos also have a safety or decocker, which lowers the hammer, leaving the gun ready to fire in DA (double action -meaning the trigger cocks and drops the hammer when pulled) mode, IF you have a decocker, and ready to fire in DA mode, but on safe, if you have a hammer dropping safety.
DAO (DA Only) means there is no provision built in for single action fire. Every shot must be done DA mode, with the trigger cocking and then dropping the hammer when pulled.
Lost Sheep
New member
Lost of information, sprinkled with some misinformation
Circa81,
44Amp got it right. Almost every other post in this thread has some defect, either in terminology, definitions, omitted features or assuming you have knowledge that you may not have.
As I said, 44 Amp got it right, but even he left out the fact that three things happen with a DA (double action) revolver (as opposed to a semi-automatic's two things). With a DA revolver, the cylinder rotates in addition to "cocking" (or drawing back) the hammer and releasing the hammer.
Remember, (at least in my dictionary) a double action revolver does not "cock" the hammer. It draws the hammer back, compressing the hammer spring (mainspring), but in my dictionary, cocking the hammer involves catching the hammer with the sear. Double action draws the hammer back and lets it fall, firing the gun. Single action involves drawing back the hammer by some other device than the trigger (your thumb usually), locking the sear. The gun is now cocked. This act also draws the hammer back, allowing a very short movement of the trigger to release the sear.
Rotating the cylinder to bring the next chamber into firing position occurs whenever the hammer is drawn back. EXCEPT: After firing, the hammer is down and stays down. The trigger is back all the way and must be released to its fully forward position in order to the inside parts of the gun to reset for the next set of operations. If you simply keep the trigger back (after firing), you can draw the hammer back manually and drop it, but it will not catch on the sear and since there is a spent cartridge in firing position, not much will happen.
So, you have to let the trigger go forward (under the action of the trigger return spring) before you can fire again.
All this is accomplished by a bunch of parts, pawls, sears, hands, arms, levers and stops.
Do you have access to a double action revolver? Actually handling one is far more informative than reading a description or even watching a video.
Hint: A revolver (with rare exceptions) operates exactly the same with or without ammunition in it.
Lost Sheep
Circa81,
44Amp got it right. Almost every other post in this thread has some defect, either in terminology, definitions, omitted features or assuming you have knowledge that you may not have.
As I said, 44 Amp got it right, but even he left out the fact that three things happen with a DA (double action) revolver (as opposed to a semi-automatic's two things). With a DA revolver, the cylinder rotates in addition to "cocking" (or drawing back) the hammer and releasing the hammer.
Remember, (at least in my dictionary) a double action revolver does not "cock" the hammer. It draws the hammer back, compressing the hammer spring (mainspring), but in my dictionary, cocking the hammer involves catching the hammer with the sear. Double action draws the hammer back and lets it fall, firing the gun. Single action involves drawing back the hammer by some other device than the trigger (your thumb usually), locking the sear. The gun is now cocked. This act also draws the hammer back, allowing a very short movement of the trigger to release the sear.
Rotating the cylinder to bring the next chamber into firing position occurs whenever the hammer is drawn back. EXCEPT: After firing, the hammer is down and stays down. The trigger is back all the way and must be released to its fully forward position in order to the inside parts of the gun to reset for the next set of operations. If you simply keep the trigger back (after firing), you can draw the hammer back manually and drop it, but it will not catch on the sear and since there is a spent cartridge in firing position, not much will happen.
So, you have to let the trigger go forward (under the action of the trigger return spring) before you can fire again.
All this is accomplished by a bunch of parts, pawls, sears, hands, arms, levers and stops.
Do you have access to a double action revolver? Actually handling one is far more informative than reading a description or even watching a video.
Hint: A revolver (with rare exceptions) operates exactly the same with or without ammunition in it.
Lost Sheep
Lost Sheep
New member
Double action video
This is a link to a nice video showing (in schematic) how a typical (GP-100 from Ruger) works, firing in double action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj7NNkbjgF8&feature=related
The text is in Spanish, but the video is without sound, so watching it does not require language skills.
After you have watched it for a while, you will notice that the hammer's rear projection engages an arm attached to the trigger, lifting it and drawing the hammer back. Just behind and below that arm is another part of the trigger. That is the sear that is used when the revolver will be fired in single action mode. Note that it is NOT engaged whatsoever when firing in double action.
Here is another video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXliIJ_66FQ&feature=related
Lost Sheep
This is a link to a nice video showing (in schematic) how a typical (GP-100 from Ruger) works, firing in double action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj7NNkbjgF8&feature=related
The text is in Spanish, but the video is without sound, so watching it does not require language skills.
After you have watched it for a while, you will notice that the hammer's rear projection engages an arm attached to the trigger, lifting it and drawing the hammer back. Just behind and below that arm is another part of the trigger. That is the sear that is used when the revolver will be fired in single action mode. Note that it is NOT engaged whatsoever when firing in double action.
Here is another video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXliIJ_66FQ&feature=related
Lost Sheep
First I want to apologize for sounding so dumb, but because of a law here, I can't even touch a gun without buying an expensive permit that I can't afford right now, so all my knowledge about firearms is from reading. Believe me, I'd love to have first hand knowledge. But anyway, if I understand you guys right, trigger wise, without thumb cocking, there's no difference between a double action revolver and a DAO semi auto. Is that right?
A double action revolver CAN be fired in a Single Action Mode. A Double Action Only (DAO) semi-auto CAN ONLY be fired in a Double Action Mode. The semi auto with DAO is a safety feature because it requires a long trigger pull to cock the hammer and then release the hammer to fire the gun.
Lost Sheep
New member
Correct
Semi-Auto arms are more complex because there are so many other choices.
Lost Sheep
Right. A DAO revolver's operation is indistinguishable from a DA/SA revolver until you manually cock the hammer.circa81 said:
Semi-Auto arms are more complex because there are so many other choices.
Lost Sheep
Yes, when you pull the trigger on a DA/SA revolver, the effect is the same as pulling the trigger on a DA/SA semiauto or a DAO semiauto, assuming that semiauto actually has a hammer and is not striker-fired. That is, pulling the trigger all the way back causes the hammer to go from rest to "pretty far back" and then to fall once it gets a certain distance back. The internal mechanics may be different but the practical effect is the same. The difference between DA/SA and DAO is that in a DA/SA you can thumb the hammer back a little further than the point at which it drops during DA fire, and it will stay there. Then you can shoot the revolver SA, once. After every shot of a DA/SA revolver, you get to decide how the next shot will be all over again - DA or SA.
Here's a decent youtube video. Except that he refers to one striker-fired mechanism as SAO instead of the more conventional DAO and another as SA/DA instead of "striker fired with restrike capability".
Anyway I'm sure there are a billion more videos. The second one posted by LostSheep above is good, although it may help to see an actual person handling an actual weapon.
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Here's a decent youtube video. Except that he refers to one striker-fired mechanism as SAO instead of the more conventional DAO and another as SA/DA instead of "striker fired with restrike capability".
Anyway I'm sure there are a billion more videos. The second one posted by LostSheep above is good, although it may help to see an actual person handling an actual weapon.
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Lost Sheep
New member
The cycle time on a semi-auto is finite and cannot be reduced past a certain minimum without changing to a stronger recoil spring, but there is a limit to that, too. If the spring is too strong, the cycling of the slide does not go far enough and the gun jams. (Failure to Eject, or Failure to Feed)circa81 said:
With a revolver, as fast as you can pull the trigger is as fast as the gun can fire. If you have a strong trigger finger (lots of practice) you can go really fast. If you go too fast, you start introducing excessive wear, though and possibly might break some of the more delicate parts. But you have to pull REALLY hard to do that.
Lost Sheep
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But you didn't say that DA/SA revolvers *are* known for their speed, you simply said you wondered how folks can fire a DA revolver quickly. I'm not saying any particular weapon is necessarily fast (or not). That all depends on the shooter. With any weapon, some folks can fire them quickly, some can't - even SAO weapons. It takes more effort to fire a DAO semiauto or a DA/SA revolver. But if you have the finger strength you can do it rapidly.
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