Dry Run?

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Really, the level of hysteria being displayed over some lounge lizard's backup band is just absolutely hilarious.
Though not nearly as hilarious as the lack of "hysteria" expressed for student pilots who only wanted to learn "how to steer" passenger liners. Not to mention the high-larity of said students showing up at various airports - in small groups - at the last minute to buy one-way tickets in order to fly across a country they weren't even citizens of with no luggage to speak of.

A real gut-buster that. :barf:
 
Al-Qaeda must be chuckling through their beards at their newest unwitting minion, Fred Hansen, and his attempts to get legitimate musicians chucked off planes while they hire some freckle-faced lass from the IRA to spread anthrax through the Mall of America and have some disaffected ex-Baader Meinhoff member on Osama's payroll shoot up the suburbs of Sacramento.

Hilarious, indeed.

Maybe www.stormfront.org would be more receptive to your "turd world barbarian" rantings and "barfie" smilies? Just a thought...
 
Get back to me when groups of "freckle-faced lass(es)" start milling about and standing around on airplanes.

One other thing: Muhamed Atta was a "legitimate" former engineering grad student in addition to being a "legitimate" student pilot. It didn't stop him from helping to kill 3,000+ Americans.
 
Fred,

Get back to me when groups of "freckle-faced lass(es)" start milling about and standing around on airplanes.

Well, the first time I remember it happening was on our flight to Prestwick to do missionary work in Europe back in '83. Unlike the musicians in question, us girls understood Engrish just fine, we were just young and obnoxious.

Obviously they shouldn't have used spices on us; they should have blown us away. :rolleyes:

One other thing: Muhamed Atta was a "legitimate" former engineering grad student in addition to being a "legitimate" student pilot. It didn't stop him from helping to kill 3,000+ Americans.

Thank gawd those "turd world barbarians" are so dumb that they'll keep using guys named "Mohammed" to perpetrate the ol' airliner attack. If'n they were smart Aryan types, they might try something new the next time while we were all prepared to fight the previous battle. :rolleyes:
 
What good will it accomplish if we save the Constitution and lose the country? Somewhere along the line we will have to make a decision and it will be a difficult one. I’m sure there were officials who agonized over rounding up the Japanese-Americans too, but it happened anyway. Looking back on those times (I remember them) I don’t see what else we could have done and if… no, when it happens again, I’m sure we’ll go through much the same painful debate.
Nice to know that there will always be those who will take away my rights to protect me. So now you are going to pick and choose which rights you get? I assume when you post here you are a supporter of 2nd Amendment rights. If/when those get suspended, don't complain.
What is the point in keeping the country if we don't save the Constitution? We will no longer be the people we were and will be further away from what we think we are, a country of freedoms. I'll take the risk - and professionally I have flown multiple times weekly, lived neer a major airport hub close to a large city.
In regards to WWII, once again anybody familiar with Japanese culture would have known that they would be more loyal to their new home. More danger was to be had from German and Italian immigrants.
Apologies to those of you who can't live without a middle eastern minstrel show, but for now my country is more important.
I don't need white power extremists who blow up government buildings either (or whatever the final story was in Oklahoma City), lets kick out any who might fit the general description.
You folks who think that airplanes will not be used again as modes of attack are comatose.
Whoever said that they didn't believe that planes would be used as guided missles again? When it happened, I was suprised that nobody (including myself) had thought of it before.
 
Croyance:

I don't remember (nor do I find by re-reading my post) any acceptance of picking, choosing or otherwise restricting Constitutional rights. I merely pointed out that it happened once before and it will happen again. Unless things happen faster than I think they will, I probably won't even be around when it happens but that won't change anything. All civilizations and all govrnments fall-- eventually. the more entrenched the civilization or government, the harder the fall. Neither our civilization nor our government is immune.
 
Well, the first time I remember it happening was on our flight to Prestwick to do missionary work in Europe back in '83. Unlike the musicians in question, us girls understood Engrish just fine, we were just young and obnoxious.
What does that have to do with this argument? Pre-9/11 it wasn't against airline regulations to mill about, or stand in groups. Now every passenger receives instructions not to do so. Yet for some reason these folks get a pass?
Thank gawd those "turd world barbarians" are so dumb that they'll keep using guys named "Mohammed" to perpetrate the ol' airliner attack.
Are you trying to say that Atta wasn't involved in the 9/11 attack?

Al-Qaeda members are indeed barbaric, but they aren't stupid. Why abandon a system that has shown that it will work? Airlines have spent fortunes in cabin door retrofits and other nonsense, and yet it is common knowledge that pilots aren't armed, and that flight attendants still have the pilots open the doors for beverage, snack and food service.

While it is true that the "Shoe-bomber" was stopped by a combination of a flight attendant and some passengers, there is no reason whatsoever to believe that a group of people would not be successful in taking a flight deck in a mad rush. The aisles are only a few inches wide, how hard could it be to block them? Essentially all that need happen is 3-4 guys getting into the flight deck. Very little chaos needs to occur on the flight deck before the plane goes hopelessly out of control.

The fact that we are arguing about something as silly as IRA members being recruited by Al-Qaeda for suicide missions should tell them all they need to know about our country's willingness to be vigilant against actual threats to America. The IRA loves this country. In fact, if it weren't for the folks in Boston, New York, Chicago, and a few of the other urban blights in North America, the IRA wouldn't even be able to exist. Go into almost any Irish bar in those areas and see if there isn't an "Irish Orphan's Fund" jug kicking around with a few bucks in it. IRA shares cowardice in common with Al-Qaeda, but little else. When one of the IRA bombers die, it is almost always because of miscalculation. Not because suicide missions are a hallmark of IRA. Distributing anthrax in the red-herring manner you describe would quite likely result in suicidal side-effects.

I have heard credible evidence of what you would call Aryan types being recruited in the Balkans region. I think Al-Qaeda rightly believes that the muslim population in that area would make a fine place to recruit suicide Jihadists. I've heard no credible evidence that they are recruiting Roman Catholics though, or Eastern Orthodox folks for that matter.

I'm glad you brought up the thread on Deputy Herzog. He came to a scene that looked exactly like what it was. A psychotic naked drug addict in the street hell bent on rape and murder. Deputy Herzog had been trained to disregard what was in front of his own eyes. He's dead. The psychotic drug addict (now murderer... I guess batting .500 is nothing to sneeze at) is no longer naked (except on occasion - prison rules & such) but he's still alive, and stealing my oxygen.
 
I don't need white power extremists who blow up government buildings either (or whatever the final story was in Oklahoma City), lets kick out any who might fit the general description.
I don't need any either, but kicking them out is one thing, having a government policy of importing people into our country from places that have essentially declared war on us is quite another.

If someone wants to come here from one of those countries in order to gain political asylum, I'm all for it if they can prove their case.

If they want to come and play me a tune, it's gonna need to wait for a while. While we are fighting for our lives and our civilization a CD or cassette will have to do.
 
The point that I was trying to make earlier still has
not been addressed. What are we as a nation in general and as citizens in particular supposed to do now. Sure, the terrorists are laughing at us because our paranoia and xenophobia are causing us to chase shadows and constrict the normally free and open society that is our birthright. They don't care if our preferences lean to DU or Stormfront or any one of hundreds of stops on the spectrum in between...they want us all dead. They are, as Tamara alluded to, thinking up clever ways to beat the profile and still deliver a telling blow. What do we do?

Let's stay on task here, avoid the thinly veiled racist
slurs, sarcasm and ad hominem attacks. WE, as in ALL of us, are being targeted.
 
What do we do?
There is little that "we" can do. This problem has been allowed to fester far to long, and our countrymen have spent far too much time living in the bliss of ignorance. Most of the people that live in this country don't realize that we are in the midst of a long-term war. We know by the very need for this board that not enough Americans believe in the RKBA, much less the exercise of what the RKBA implies -- self defense.

Meanwhile we're told that we should probably ignore a guy with a typical middle-eastern name in the belief that freckle-faced celtic pixies are the real threat. Maybe we should just keep an eye peeled for squadrons of hampsters with their cheek pouches stuffed with methyl ethyl ketone peroxide, ready to explode at the drop of a hat.

Historically the terrorists allied to Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezzballah, etc. have used similar tactics over and over again. Even after some murder-bombers are thwarted, the terrorists still employ the technique. They have no reason not to. Just as they have no reason not to try to take control of passenger-liners. Who will stop them? Unarmed passengers with zero experience in the art of unarmed combat? What if the (unlikely) person(s) with combat experience are 7,8,9... 12 seats back? How sure are we that they could reach the terrorists in time to be effective? Should we count on the practically non-existant Air Marshalls? How about the unarmed pilots; are we going to count on them to fly the plane and fight off a few men? And even if the terrorists were completely unable to gain control of a plane, part of their success would be measured in how much terror they strike into the hearts of the flying public. As inveterate cowards the Islamists have no chance against us militarily, but they could be very effective in crippling our economy. Mere attempts to take planes would be sufficient at least in the short term.

Let's say for the sake of argument that 3-4 men congregate in the aisle of an aircraft. Then let's say they chose a moment to strike. Would/could/should they have any less effect on that flight than a cat had on this flight?

Cat in Cockpit Forces Emergency Landing


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Aug 10, 9:33 AM (ET)
BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) - A Belgian airliner made an emergency landing after an agitated passenger - a cat - got into the cockpit and attacked the co-pilot, the airline said Tuesday.
The SN Brussels flight from the Belgian capital to Vienna, Austria, had been in the air about 20 minutes Monday when "it was noticed" that a passenger's pet had escaped from its cage, "although it is not yet clear how," according to an airline statement.
"Once free, the animal proceeded to wander around the cabin," slipping into the cockpit when meals were being delivered to the two-man flight crew, it said.
"At this stage the animal became agitated and nervous," it said. An airline spokeswoman added that the cat scratched the copilot's arm.
The pilot decided to return to Brussels as a precaution, and the 58 passengers departed once more two hours later on another flight.
The cat had been checked in Oslo, Norway, in an internationally approved "flight transport bag," but the airline said it may end up changing its procedures for pets in the cabin once it concludes its investigation.
"At no time throughout the incident was the passengers' security affected in any way," it said.
Sound silly? To me it sounds silly when I'm asked to ignore that Islamic fanatics in over a dozen places around the globe are the cause of pitched battle. It sickens me that as I write this, hundreds of terrorist cells are performing reconnaissance, planning, and plotting, and doing so with impunity right under the noses of most people. It disgusts me that for as long as I've been alive this obvious problem has not been addressed.

In the meantime I will keep an eye peeled for auburn haired beauties from the Emerald Isle bearing envelopes of powdered death, in much the same way that I keep an eye peeled for bands of Apache warriors sneaking up to massacree me and mine. :rolleyes:
 
Well, so much for avoiding racism and sarcasm. We have one vote for 'we can do nothing'.

Anyone else wanna take a whack at it?
 
I say that, unlike Fred's suggestion, we keep a close eye on Nezar Hindawi's fiancee's suitcase. ;) (Even if she was a freckle-faced celtic pixie. ;) )

Oh, and rather than depending on the hysteric post-game reports of easily-panicked blissninnies like Annie, we need to get the guns into the hands of the pilots (if we're still too nancy to let the passengers carry theirs), keep the frickin' doors locked, and beat the livin' crap out of anybody who dares to try and hijack the plane with smuggled-aboard toenail clippers. I realize that this is probably too complicated a strategy, and that we'll probably need to rely on another huge government bureaucray and a bunch of new laws instead, but still...
 
I say that, unlike Fred's suggestion, we keep a close eye on Nezar Hindawi's fiancee's suitcase. (Even if she was a freckle-faced celtic pixie. )

Oh, and rather than depending on the hysteric post-game reports of easily-panicked blissninnies like Annie, we need to get the guns into the hands of the pilots (if we're still too nancy to let the passengers carry theirs), keep the frickin' doors locked, and beat the livin' crap out of anybody who dares to try and hijack the plane with smuggled-aboard toenail clippers. I realize that this is probably too complicated a strategy, and that we'll probably need to rely on another huge government bureaucray and a bunch of new laws instead, but still...
I've made unarmed pilots part of my criticism from the beginning. I've also said that rather than bother to keep an eye on someone's suitcase - when they have known ties to terrorists/terrorist harboring countries - that we simply keep them out of our country. That way I don't have my life hanging on the (in)competance of a TSA flunky. How hard is that to understand?
 
No, not so hard to understand. Don't be so defensive.
I agree about keeping the immigration of folks from countries who are not with us to a bare minimum. The problem is that they are already here. What do you do about that?
 
I agree about keeping the immigration of folks from countries who are not with us to a bare minimum. The problem is that they are already here. What do you do about that?
Revoke their visas for a start. Issue zero new ones to boot. If a person is here as a legal alien then just keep (better than pre-9/11) track of them. Simple stuff. The existing system issued a visa renewal for one of the 9/11 hijackers posthumously. Not good. Not good at all.

If a person has known links to IRA, Red Brigade, is a former Baader-Meinhoff gang member, NO VISA! But we aren't going to do that, because people's feelings might be hurt. It's 3 years after 9/11 and we don't even bother to keep the "impregnable" magic doors closed on our flight decks. Much less arm our pilots.

So we are left hoping that airport screeners will not only find a weapon of one sort or another on visitors to this country, but we are also hoping that said weapon will be a clue to the fact that a hijacking is about to take place. Which misses the point that the 9/11 hijackers committed their act using only those things - which at the time - did not constitute a weapon!

There are lots of really nice people that live in backward places, and it is sad that they do. It's sadder still that many of those backward places have way too many horrible bi-pedal animals who are completely vested in a sort of cultural/socio-political/theological insanity that makes the Dark Ages look pleasant. But none of that is my, or my country's, fault. We shouldn't be taking the chance of letting people from these easily identifiable places come into this country while we are at war. And as I said earlier, not being able to come to this country to play music (or any other non-essential activity) - and potentially make more $ in one night's gig than one can make in a year of hard labor at home - may serve as an incentive for folks to root out the psychotic death-cultists at home. It's undiplomatic to say "Come back when your country is at least half civilized!", but it's three years after 9/11, and few people are willing to face the fact that parts of our country are still being surveilled by foreigners for future attacks.

By the way, race doesn't enter into this in any way. Islamic extremist Chechens don't necessarily resemble Islamic extremist Syrians or Islamic extremist Filipinos or Islamic extremist Indonesians or Islamic extremist Kosovar Albanians or Islamic extremist Nigerians or Islamic extremist [fill in your personal favorite here], but if we are going to be in denial about the common thread that they share, and that several countries world-wide are currently being stepped on by the elephant in the room, then as I said earlier, there is little (not nothing) that we can do to stop them.

You asked for common sense answers. How is asking to limit (to as near to zero as possible) the number of people coming into our ports from known hotspots antithetical to common sense? Do you not change your awareness of potential threat level depending on what part of town you are in? Do you not (and I'm sure you do, as any thinking person would) limit your exposure to potential threats despite the fact that if you had to, you could/would defend yourself using lethal force if necessary?

The 9/11 savages managed a kill rate of approximately 157 to 1. Even if we could sustain that for centuries, it would still be anathema to do so for the sake of some hurt feelings.
 
Why the continued insistance that everybody is in denial?
The truth is that every country is in a fight for their existance, whether they know it or not. And eventually they will all lose, to be replaced by new nations. The challenged may be economic, military, or environmental.

I like Tamara's suggestions, except I want to issue everybody nail-clippers. You know, so when somebody tries to hijack a plane we can all just go at it. Flight crew will also be issued nail files.

Nobody said to ignore middle-easterners. Not one. Some just want more thinking criteria. I know that asking a government employee to think and use good judgement is pushing the envelope, but it is something I have always hoped for.
 
Not to minimize the deaths on September 11, but the real impact was not the lose in lives, nor the damage to property. It was the fact that foreign terrorists successfully destroyed a symbolic target in the United States.
Tragic though the lose of life was, the "kill rate", as you put it, of 157 to 1 means little. The lose of life on a societal scale was more about the fear and insecurity it generated. In a long term struggle, such a ratio will not be sustained. The sudden feeling of vulnerability that pervaded America was the real goal.
The lose of the buildings themselves in a practical sense meant nothing. New buildings can be built and Manhattan had a huge excess of empty floor space available.
The buisness in the Twin Towers were able to continue on, for the most part. For many, office space there was more symbolic, with the real work done elsewhere. Storage of important documents was usually off-site also.
The lose in confidence, the impact on investment, the added costs from security also had widespread effects.

Do not take this as ignoring the value of the lives that were lost.

When a society feels truely threatened, it will abondon its values. Remember the panic immediately after September 11. Look how easily the Patriot Act passed. When people's backs are to wall, morals will be lost and ethics forgotten.
Possibly the smartest thing that terrorists did was not to continue in a series of follow-up attacks. That would have brought out the worst in everybody.
Instead I get Ridge popping up saying what a great jod they did, when I don't even know if there was anything for them to stop.
 
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