"Drop in" 1911 Match Barrel

Bob,

I think you realize that your response absurdly avoids the question. Or do you actually believe that the countless loose fitting 1911s out there (as originally built) are all eating their lugs like that bad run of Colts?


The question was: Can a well fitted link improve accuracy? Your answer suggests you have no experience with the question. I'm certain you are very good at producing tightly fitted 1911s, but for you to disagree with Dave on this point you'd actually have to have some firsthand knowledge. And saying that a loose gun will just destroy itself does not suggest you have that knowledge.

Further, the mention of timing also suggests you haven't thought about this. The only real way to create a timing issue is with an overly long link.
 
Handy catches me every time! I used to be married to a Catholic Girl who could spell any word there was, but she is long gone and my spelling has suffered a great deal. Thanks for keeping me on the straight and narrow. I no longer own one of those things so I couldn'r look at the slide to check spelling! I will make a note of the correct spelling and I won't shoot one again until I can spell it right!
Bob is right about lock up. He knows that it affects accuracy. To install a gunsmith Kart NM Barrel in a factory gun would be about $225.00 labor and about $ 180.00 for the barrel, bushing, link, and pin. I am slow and careful so it takes about three hours of my time and I charge $75.00 per hour. I would require a very well built , tight gun to start with or I would not waste my time or my client's money. That would give the shooter about 2-3 inches at 50 Yards. The $35.00 fix with a decent gun would deliver about 4-5 inches at that distance. Take your pick! I could do it either way, and did. I will stand by what I said to start with. Most factory guns can be improved by the intallation of a new link, a new link pin, and a NM Barrel Bushing. Take it or leave it, or argue about it. Makes no difference to me!
 
Handy,
I'm not sure if you want an honest answer or are just trolling. Maybe I misunderstood what you were asking but my knowledge of 1911 guns goes much further than what you believe. That being said I do not claim to know it all, but over the years I have gained a reasonable amount of knowledge of 1911 guns. I'm not avoiding answering any question, I was trying to explain barrel fit but I take it thats not what you are interested in. To answer the question you just ask. Does a well fit barrel link improve accuracy in a 1911 gun? To some degree yes. I believe my original comment on this was, if a barrel link is changed for another barrel link of the same size on a loose fit barrel it does nothing to improve the mechanical accuracy in a 1911 gun. I'm not sure what part of that statement you can't comprehend. Now to go further in hopes that you can comprehend what I'm saying, I do concur with Dave, a well fit barrel bushing will improve accuracy in a 1911 to some degree. If memory serves me correctly I do not ever recall saying it did not.
Now my question is. If a barrel is loose in areas other than the link and bushing what makes you think the lock up is consistant?
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
 
Now my question is. If a barrel is loose in areas other than the link and bushing what makes you think the lock up is consistant?
Click to expand...
Browning lock up relies on the barrel being held between several fixed points, which I'm sure we both agree on. In the original 1911 design (pre gunsmithing), those points might be summerized this way:

1. Bushing: Provides vertical and lateral stability to the front of the barrel. Provides no longitudinal or fore/aft stability.

2. Lower lug and link: Provides the forward limit of the barrel and slide, as well as longitudinal stability because the link is pulling the two lower lugs down and level against the slide stop pin. This also provides vertical stability to the back of the barrel, but little lateral stability since the frame cut and lower lug have some lateral play and are well below centerline.

3. Hood: Provides the forward pressure on the barrel to allow the link to time the barrel into the upper slide lugs. Provides no longitudinal stability (unfitted).

4. Upper lugs: Provides fixed fore and aft lockup to insure consistant headspace during cycle. They provide no lateral or longitudinal stability.

5. Slide and barrel: The curved upper surfaces mate to provide lateral stability.


When you fit a barrel in 1911 you are not doing something that wasn't being done before. Now you are ADDING increased longitudinal stability with an oversized hood, and increasing the horizontal stability by greatly increasing the down force on the lower lug using the slide. But looking at the "loose" 1911s design you can see that all the elements of consistancy are there, if play is kept out of the link, bushing and foreaft upper lugs.


Your statement about "same size link" is the confusing part. Same length - if it is the correct length to begin with, then that is the link to use, and that length is determined solely by the lower lug surface (if the barrel lugs are also in spec). But the size of the link HOLES determine the amount of play both vertically and longitudinally that will be seen between slide stop and lower lug. THAT is the point of using a nicer link, and why I (and Dave, I guess) believe a tightly fitted link with no play will increase consistancy.


The 1911 slide/barrel relationship is fairly unique - one of the only Browning type pistols where the barrel tilts out of horizontal to lock, but is level with the slide in the unlocked position. Gunsmiths like yourself have developed some fairly drastic and interesting methods to make the original design work in a fundamentally different way than intended and have netted accuracy results that are as good as other, simpler designs that don't require hand fitting. My hat is off to you, but don't confuse the work you do with all the other ways of achieving consistancy. One has only to look at the seemingly sloppy "lock up" of a P38 or Beretta 92 to realize that consistancy can be had without the expense of extremely small clearances. The no clearance method works, but one can also keep the clearances where they matter least and tighten up the parts that do the most work.


FYI, I'm called lots of things, but rarely troll.
 
Jeeeze Handy! I now have cable and this thing is so fast it skipped to you and I did it again. I am going to have to go back to dial-up if this keeps up. I am really sorry I get you mixed up here. I still think it was a funny post and we have to give him five points for it. And take away five atta-boys for my mistake!
 
Storm Lake Springfield Armory 1911 kit

Purchased 3 SLM 45 acp barrels....finish is superb, equal to my Bar-Sto, and the price ($89.00) each with link and SS bushing was too good to pass; anyway, I purchased these barrels to replace the 2 piece SA barrels in my GI and Mil-specs, which I have mildly customized with all the internals dumped for Ed Brown, Caspian, and Wilson parts, MS housings replaced with S&A arched checkered SS, and solid alum triggers; the barrels "dropped in" as advertised, with only a vigorous cycling of the slide 20-30 times to insure proper seating of the lugs. The fit is definitely tighter than the factory barrel, but not so much so to cause problems when racking the slide. Put 250 rounds through one of the pistols without a hitch. Is there such a thing as Drop in? ;)
 
Changing link length toa longer one typivcally results in the barrel ridinh the link.
Instead of the barrel feet pushing it into the slide, the link does the pushing.
It is not really designed for this and a broken link is usually the eventual outcome.
If there is enough depth on the lugs to shorten the link, and then cut the barrel feet again, you can improve the vertical lockup.
 
The barrel feet will now be correctly riding on the stop pin and wil cme to a consistent position.
The lugs are not supposed to ever 'top out' in the slide. This will just cause a jamb and break a link very quickly (and if frced enough bend the slide stop pin).
Vertical position is not controlled by the slide, you just have to have enough lug engagement to take the load produced when fired.
The vertical battery is controlled by the barrel feet.
 
So......you are saying Nowlin, Barsto, Kart, Miller and Kuhnhausen are all wrong?
I've got to wonder, where did you get your info? :confused:
Do you work as a gunsmith? :(
 
I think Kuhnhausen says exactly the same thing I am saying.
Riding the link and not having the barrel feet produce teh vertical lockup has always been seen as incorrect.
Before the ready availability of aftermarket barrels with oversized feet we used to weld them up and then cut them back using a small milling cutter riding in the slide stop holes. The jig is available from Brownells now, but for many years they had to be made.
Guess you think all the years of welding and the now oversized barel feet are not required?
 
Had me going, Brick. You said the lugs should never top out in the slide. I now think you were saying the lugs should never top out in the slide by riding a long link. Rather the barrel feet and slide stop pin should provide the vertical lock up. When I fit the barrel feet, they will lift the barrel up as far as the lugs will allow, and also lift the slide to remove any play in the rails while in battery. Then I measure for the correct link size. Right or wrong? What say you guys?
 
Iron Bottom,
I agree with you 100%.

I DO NOT agree with the following:

"If there is enough depth on the lugs to shorten the link, and then cut the barrel feet again, you can improve the vertical lockup."

"The lugs are not supposed to ever 'top out' in the slide."

"Vertical position is not controlled by the slide,"

I do not see how removing even more material from the lower lugs will improve lock-up.
Also, if a shorter link is fitted in an attempt to 'improve' lock-up, the rear travel of the barrel may be stopped by the link instead of the vertical impact surface of the frame. This is what will break links.
A good technical discussion of this can be found at:
www.scheumann.com
 
If the lugs top out in the slide (go to zero clearance) the oddds of things operating correctly for any length of time are pretty darn small.
The barrel feet are cut to ensure enough lug engagement for safety (80-90% is good enough).
It would take an awful bad setup to have the lug stop the downward travel of the barrel before it hits the frame.
I see more broken links from cheap links (punched out not machined) and too much length being used.
The barrel strikes the slide as it rises and the load is transfered to the link and the slide stop cross pin as the link swings over vertical.
Many stock guns have enough play in the sldie frame vertically to allow the slide to bump up nad over the lug, but they seem, to break pretty quickly from the extra beating.
 
Well..................
your experiences and techniques certainly differ from mine.
Maybe we are from different parts of the country?
Shall we just agree to disagree?
:)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top