"Drop in" 1911 Match Barrel

Chapter II

The “Fly in the Ointment”

Still, this was a nice, tight 1911- and I thought it should have shot a little better. When I got it home I tore it down again, and started looking for anything which might have inhibited accuracy. The first thing I found was a small imperfection in the barrel’s exterior, located right on top about an inch ahead of the front locking lug.
milspec1denta8or.jpg


This alone wouldn’t amount to a hill of beans, but after scrubbing the bore I also found a corresponding defect in the barrel’s interior. It appears that whatever force caused the exterior defect, crushed the barrel enough to form a ridge into one land and groove of the rifling.
milspec1gouge1ua.jpg

milspec1gougeb8um.jpg


Folks, this cannot be good for accuracy. I doubt it would ever be a safety issue given the .45 ACP’s low operating pressures- but hey, this was a NEW gun. This should have been caught by Springfield’s QC inspectors.

I notified SFA of the barrel problem on 02/01/05, and shipped it to them on 02/02. I simply asked that they ship me another one-piece stainless barrel, sans the problems, that miked a full 0.580 at the muzzle. Megan Klavon at SFA handled the service matter, and I must say she was a pleasure to work with. When I received the new barrel on 02/16, my first impression was that it was a superb piece of manufacturing. Finish was first-rate and execution was perfect, inside and out. It was also a dead-perfect, drop-in fit; the only thing (aside from the finish) notably different, was that the replacement was a tad longer, and protruded from the bushing slightly. When I asked Megan which model this particular barrel was typically furnished with, her reply was “We use that barrel in our Trophy Matches and TRP’s.”

Nice! But did it shoot?

Yes it did. Even with the 0.005 oversize stock bushing, it was grouping three 230 HydraShoks in an inch and a half. The 200 LSWC load, mentioned above, ran just over two inches for five; not bad for a bulk load put-up in mongrel, range pick-up brass… particularly from a service-grade pistol.

I ran out of Universal Clays, and have been fiddling HS-6 in several calibers, including the .45 ACP. This particular load was 8.1 grains under the Sierra 230 JHC. Range was about 43 yards, rested on the side of a handy tree-

hs645tgt7tv.jpg


Four of the five are inside 3.5 inches, and the stray was definitely mine. My assessment is that this barrel alone, improved the MilSpec’s mechanical accuracy close to 100%.

This new barrel was really showing promise, so I went ahead and fitted a Maryland Gun Works match bushing per Kuhnhausen's shop manual. I got a chance to bench the gun at 50 yards, and I believe it is going to be a real shooter. The 3-shot cluster is probably what the gun can do; the flyers were the best that I could do, on this particular day. Still, it went under 3.5 inches, which makes me pretty proud of the reload if nothing else. I don't shoot much better than that on my best day, with match ammo and full-blown centerfire target pistols. The load was 8.1 grains of HS-6 under Sierra's excellent 230 grain JHC.

The Navidrex grips aren't bad for "cheapies" either.
hs6wmgw6kw.jpg
 
Mr. Hunter

Thanks for the offer, but I already have one in 9x21 :D

Carries fairly well from a Yaqui; sight radius makes my shooting straighter; sixteen hundred with a 115g R-P JHP (vaporizer).
I call it my "Goin' to Chicago" piece.

Except that's the frame I just buggered LOL..........


(Actually, my all-time fav when wearing its 41 AE tube. Boyohboy does THAT thing shoot straight; still gotta respectable stash of Speer's 180g Gold Dot bullets. HS6.)
 
Invssgt: Nice informative writeup.

Sounds like you have a decent 50 yarder there with the right loads...with a "drop in" bbl and fitted bushing.

Accuracy wasn't bad with the defective bbl either.

It wouldn't surprise me to see Springfield the number one seller of 1911's in a couple of years.
 
Dave,
I have found through the years that most 1911 have pretty good barrels and that they can be inproved by re-linking and fitting a NM Bushing
Maybe they thought you were. What did you mean by "re-linking"? Fitting a shorter link? Or just one with tighter dimensions through the holes?
 
Handy; You hit the nail on the head again. I do not like long or short links. I always use the .278 size for what I do. What I have found is that the factory links are sometimes stamped out junk and the people who build these guns do not view this small part to be as important as I do. A quality barrel link coupled with a decent NM bushing fit does much to improve any 1911 factory barrel and the gun will then shoot better than the shooter can shoot it in most cases. I have done this with terrible looking, pitted Systima barrels that you would swear were junk and shot out and have achived the kind of accuracy needed for the purpose at hand. ( Win the fight at 3-7 yards.)
Thanks for helping me clear this up. I use to use Wilson Links that were in the $6.00 range, but Fred Kart has been generous to supply me with a few of his at no charge and I will use them in the future. My tastes are simple! I like the Best.
 
I certainly have nothing against using the best quality parts thats on the market. That being said using the same size link on a loose fit barrel does not change the lockup of the barrel. That's why we used to weld up the hoods and lower lug so we could get a tight lockup, remember barrel and barrel fit is 80% of the mechanical accuracy in a 1911 style gun.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
 
Weld up barrels and then cut them to size. I have some of that junk in my Hall of Shame parts place. I never wasted my time with that stuff when I could buy brand new oversize barrels and fit them. Thanks goodness thoses days are gone. I like Match Barrels.
 
There's not much call for welding up a barrel and fitting it nowadays with the selection of good quality gunsmith fit barrels we now have, but that wasn't the case years back. Then we didn't have the Schuemann, Nowlin, Brown or Bar-Sto barrels to choose from so you welded up a Colt barrel and hard fit it to the gun. A Colt barrel welded up and hard fit the right way by someone who knew what they were doing was a long way from being junk and there was some damm good bullseye guns built using welded up Colt barrels.
All this being said, just relinking a loose fit barrel with the same size barrel link still does nothing for improving barrel lock up or the mechanical accuracy in a 1911 style gun.
Regards
Bob Hunter
(816) 675-2340
www.huntercustoms.com
 
All this being said, just relinking a loose fit barrel with the same size barrel link still does nothing for improving barrel lock up or the mechanical accuracy in a 1911 style gun.
I was given to believe that it isn't the AMOUNT of lockup, but the consistency of lockup. It also strikes me that a link with tighter hole dimensions would contribute to longitudinal stability, and therefore repeatability.

Maybe one of you gentlemen can help me remember the name of a prominent '70s gunsmith who built very accurate, and loose 1911s. I wonder what he would say about the effect of a good link?



BTW, I really dislike it when we have the pleasure of having two knowledgeable gunsmiths disagreeing, and they just back off. The rest of us can learn much from BOTH of you telling your story and sticking to your guns. I give both of you credit for being pro builders (not just self proclaimed tuners), and would like to hear Dave make his point about links. If both of you are polite, there is no problem with disagreeing. But there is a problem if this board ISN'T the appropriate place for such a disagreement. On the contrary, it is the BEST place to disagree.
 
Handy,
You are correct about a barrels lockup must be consistant. That being said a loose fit barrel will not be consistant and lock up in the same place every time. If that was the case no one including my mentor would have wasted time welding and refitting the barrels in the old Colts. You are also on the right path about the barrel link. That being said the point is, if you have a loose fit barrel, which the link is part of the equation just changing the link with the same size link changed nothing in the barrel lockup so the barrel is still inconsistant in its lockup.
I know of no pistolsmith that will claim a loose fit barrel to be accurate, the old Ransom rest will prove that every time.
Now my mentor did claim that slide to frame fit was not as important as some may think it is, maybe this is what you are thinking about when talking of a gun being loose.
Also I'm not here to spar with Dave or anyone , I'm just stating facts from what I know has been proved and taught to me.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
 
I'll find the gent's name who built loose guns.


I'm unsure why you say that a barrel with loose upper lug engagement MUST be inconsistant. If the bushing is somewhat tight, the link and lower lugs bring the barrel to a consistant spot relative to the frame and there is steady forward pressure on the hood, what is inconsistant?
 
I wish to thanks Bob for his input on this subject and to Handy for giving me a chance to say what I need to say to clear this matter up.
I never implied that a badly fit barrel/gun would benefit much by any improvement that I would make in a small way.
I used to do a new link and NM barrel Bushing for a minimum shop charge of $35.00 which included the bushing ($8.60) and the link ($3.00) in 1911's that were pretty decent factory guns that had a very loose bushing fit and a stamped out junk link. Believe it or not, I improved several Norincos with this simple fix. No. They were not bullseye guns. No. They were not the most accurate. But Yes, my clients were happy with the fix and the improvement.
Hunter Customs and Dave Sample:Pistolsmith are at the exact opposite end of the 1911 business. I doubt if there is anything about 1911's that we agree about because I did not make my bones as a factory gun tweaker. I am not a welder. I am not a machinist. I do not believe in applying heat to any part of a 1911. I do not believe in the barrels he seems to like and do not use them in what I do. I do not build Custom Commander size guns. ( One exception: The GEN C E LEMAY 45 SS Commander size 1911). I do not like guide rods in Commanders but love them in Toy Guns. Bob and I are both good men but trained under different circumstances. I am self taught. he was taught by an old time smith who did things the best way they could back then and I have no problem with that. He is still in business, I am not. I think that is it very healthy to see the different aspects of 1911 work that he and I talk about here for the rest of the members of this forum. I am assuming that we can both feel free to disagree, but still be civil about it. There are as many ways of viewing The Art of the 1911 as there are Pistolsmiths. I disagree with his view on slide to frame fit also. I think this is one of the most important aspects of a Custom 1911 Build. I think EVERYTHING need to be tight!

Relative to welding up barrels, I have pictures here of that kind of work done by a member of the American Handgunner's Club 100 Best who has butchered two barrels with the weld and cut deal. I used to have one done by a big time smith in the Denver area that was brazed with brass in the hood and lug area. I consider that a very crude way to do things in 2005. Back then, they had no choice. The two barrels that I have here were done in the last 10--12 years so there was no excuse for doing them except to save a buck. I know the man personally and he used to be a pal of mine. You will never know who he is from me, but let me say that I was very sad to see such work come out of his shop.

So I will continue to do things my way and Bob will contimue to do things his way and I am sure that all of our efforts will be OK with the people we do work for. It is a strange business full of many different ways to get to the same basic result. A Very Nicely Done 1911 Semi-Automatic Pistol.
 
Just thought you might want to see some pictures if this new barrel fitting style with the weld and cut deal

91328683.jpg


Here's the 38 Super Colt '70 series barrel. Nice job job those lower lugs. Huh?


Top View looks nice.

91328690.jpg


Then it gets strange with the slide stop treatment.

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Here is two of these dandy's, one 38. one 45.

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Look at the hole in the links

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The top barrel is one I fit that has about 50,000 rounds through it.

91328847.jpg


hey! Is that my armorer's mark on the disconnector rail? Wow!

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Well folks, it kind of makes me glad I am not a "Me Too Guy". I have never been a "Joiner". I hope you enjoy the pictures.
 
Handy
A loose fit barrel is just that loose fit and never goes back to the same lockup all the time.
Three critical areas in good barrel fit at the back of the barrel are, hood area both sides and back, radial lugs on the top of the barrel, lower lug which includes the link and slide stop pin. For a barrel to be consistant these three areas must fit very well. If one is loose it can cause the other to be loose which will give inconsistant barrel lockup.
A good example of this was in the 80's when Colt was getting several complaints about the radial lugs in the slide and on the barrel being rolled and in some cases sheared. What caused this was poor fit barrels. Not only did the loose fit barrels have poor accuracy but they were also damaging parts because they were creating timing issues in the gun.
In conclusion for a gun to shoot the kind of groups like the one in the picture of the target I posted, it will need to be of good quality, hard fit both front and rear.
By the way the barrel that shot the group was an Ed Brown barrel.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
 
Dave,
I'm not sure what your pictures are suspose to represent poor welding or poor workmanship on fitting of the barrels. Either way they are not even close to one done the right way.
The barrel on the bottom does not have enough dwell time on the lower lug. The way it's cut it would make the gun out of time and respond like a blow back action. It also appears to be bent.
The top barrel is not quite so bad but it appears to not have enough material in the feet area of the lower lug for a good lockup and the link appears to not have enough clearence to clear the radius of the lower lug.
I've seen high quality match grade barrels that looked as bad as the two you have pictured all because the people that were trying to fit them did not know what they were doing.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
 
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