Double Barrel SxS

It really depends on how you define quality. I admit I really like high grade SxS and O/U shotguns. I must I own enough of them. I also like simple utilitarian tools like the Baikals and Huglus and I own several of them also and they serve thier purposes well. In thier own right they are quality also just of a different nature.
 
We just disagree Denster ....

I just cannot use the word "Quality" when I see anything made by companies like Baikal or Huglu ....but I'm also glad to hear that you're having good luck with your guns made by both companies.

But maybe you're right ...in what Quality means ....because to me a "Minimum Quality" shotgun ...will be trouble free for at least 25,000 shells / where I expect "High Quality Guns - not Expensive guns or collector guns" - just solid high quality guns like Browning and Beretta - to be trouble free for at least 250,000 shells.../ consequently, I say Browning and Beretta give you a lot of gun for your money ( not prestigious ) ...just good, solid guns...

I know not everyone has the budget to buy some of the well made SXS's ...but I've just seen way too many disapointed shooters that have purchased some of these guns ...and have quit shooting / because they lost a lot of money on guns that failed. I wish there was a way to pick the decent 2 or 3 guns out of 10 of these guns...but I can't do it. I often tell people - if they're really looking for an inexpensive O/U ...at least take a look at the offering from Cabelas... the TriStar ...that comes with a 5 yr warranty...so they have something to lean on if it fails.
 
Jim. I'll never be able to tell you if my Baikal or Huglu guns will meet your minimum quality requirement because it is unlikely that any of them will see 25,000 rounds in the time that I own them. They are guns I use to hunt with and shoot an occasional competition and I don't mind if they get a skin mark or two on them. If something breaks (unlikely) I'll fix it.
If I'm looking to impress someone at the club I'll take one of my other guns.
 
250,000 shells:eek:even if you can get the price down to 10 cents a shell, that is still 25 grand! How would you ever be able to truly give it the "high quality" test;)
 
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SxS

BiPed, As I just posted, I bought a JW 2000 at Big 5 for $259+tax the other day and it works just fine. The finish, fit and feel are well worth the money. For shooting cans in the desert, how much gun do you need? I think this shotgun is all I will ever need.
 
SXS

Bottom line: SXSs are hunting guns. That's what they were made for...not Trap, not skeet, not Sporting Clays, not CAS. Yes, SXSs have been used for all of those sports but they shine in the field more brightly than any other venue.
I suggest that, much as I share BJP's feelings about quality (and I do), there are few SXSs that are going to be put to the 25K test.
As to $400 guns......the used market has been kind to me, though the guns that I have chosen to buy are antiques. Despite that, I hunt with them on a regular basis and have even shot SCs with one.
In one afternoon, I picked up a Parker VH and a LeFever Nitro Special for less than $800 total. Both guns were and are tight and bright. It was the LeFever that I used at Sporting Clays and did well enough that one of the other fellows in the party wanted to borrow it.
Pete
 
try one of these on for size before you spend allot of hard earned dough. 50's vintage Stevens 311. This one has the 5100 action and is a 20ga with 28" barrels and real black walnut furniture. I paid all of $200 bucks for the gun and it will last a few more decades...

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Actually regulation of sxs double shotguns is a much overstated thing. The idea that SxS shotguns whoever makes them are regulated to shoot both barrels to the same point of aim at some predetermined distance is a fallacy.
Denster makes an interesting point, but he may be over generalizing. The makers (and modifiers) of fine shotguns have been known to spend an inordinate amount of time attempting to regulate SxS shotguns for discriminating clients.

A point that is often overlooked is that the SxS is, by it's nature, an inaccurate configuration. Unlike the O/U with its parallel barrels, generally SxS barrels converge at a single point and their accuracy is limited. Think of a attack aircraft with wing guns, there is a sweet spot where that bullets converge; but, at other ranges there is a horizontal separation. It's basically the same principle with a SxS shotgun.

Back in the day when black powder SxS smooth bores were front loaded with a wide variety of charges, scattergun performance, and accuracy weren't consistent. With today's longer range ammo the SxS's lack of accuracy becomes readily apparent. There's a reason why the majority of serious shooters traded in their SxS guns many years ago.

If you're only after a gun for close quarters action and/or nostalgia, then go for a SxS. On the other hand, if you're after a gun that will take advantage of modern ammo, you might be better served with a single barrel or O/U gun.
 
I'm not saying any of you guys are wrong in your approach ( well, that's not true / I'm still not buying a Huglu or a Baikal - even for the grandkids to shoot ) ....but another way to look at this ...and everyone is different in their usage and expectations of quality ...

I probably agree with most of you on the SXS's being used more in the field than in clay games....but let's switch it up to inexpensive O/U's that some shooters want to use in the field and in clays games...

A. ... $ 400 gun and if its a decent value I'm saying it has to go 10,000 shells in its lifetime/before major repairs. At 8 boxes a month - call it 2,000 shells a yr / or 10,000 shells in 5 yrs. At $400 and 10,000 shells fired that equates to $ 40 per 1,000 targets fired.

B. ..... $ 3,000 Browning O/U Citori XS Skeet model with adj comb 30" barrels ( a gun, that I say, will fit 99.9% of shooters very well ) ...not a fancy gun / but a solid workhorse. I can attest it will easily go 250,000 shells without any major issues ( and I have at least 2 of them / that are currently doing that and more )... 250,000 shells may seem like a lot but its common for a semi-serious shooter to fire 15,000 shells a yr as a local competitive shooter - sporting clays, etc ( 25 boxes a month in competition / 25 boxes a week in practice ).

http://www.browning.com/products/ca...tent=citori-xs-skeet-adjustable-comb-firearms

You can buy Browning Citori's - like the Lightning - for $ 1,500 but the XS Skeet model has more adjustability / its not any stronger than the Lightning ....but for the sake of my comparison call it a $3,000 gun / it lists for more but $3K will get this gun, new in box, in my area ...

$3,000 @ 250,000 shells is $ 12 per 1,000 shells .....
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The question is - what's the better buy .... the $40 per 1,000 shell gun or the $ 12 per 1,000 shell guns ......

Take into account resale value ....what is that $400 gun worth in 5 yrs ... $100 or $50 ...maybe ...
What is that $3,000 gun worth in 5 yrs ( even with 75,000 shells thru it ) ...$ 2,500 maybe $ 2,750 ...(because Brownings prices will go up about 6% a yr at least on new guns ...)...or at least they have for the last 15 yrs ..
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I didn't always have $3K to spend on a gun / or the money to enter tournaments (target fees, travel, etc ) or shoot 15,000 shells a yr ....so like a lot of guys, for many years, I shot a Browning BPS ... 8 or 10 boxes a month maybe ...did some hunting, etc ... ( and I still have that gun that I paid around $ 125 for in the mid 1970's ) ....
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But my point is --- that if you can afford a better quality gun ...maybe it pays off in the long run.
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For what its worth ....I hunt upland birds with the Citori XS Skeet models as well as shoot Skeet and Sporting Clays with them ...not as much as I did 15 yrs ago ...and yes, they have a few marks on them / but even in a duck blind ...or on a Phesant hunt - you can still be careful with a nice gun ( it doesn't have to be a boat paddle )....and if, god forbid, you drop it or scratch it badly ...well winter time is a nice time to sand it out / repair the dumb-butt scratches a little if you have to ...

Just my perspective - there is no wrong or right answer probably .../ if one buyer thinks about this analysis ...I'm content ...regardless of what decision they make.
 
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I haven't met a person who's fired 30,000 shells, let alone 250,000...

I've probably fired 400 in 5 years hunting (mostly shotgun, maybe 15% rifle), but I'm looking to get into trap, skeet, and maybe some longer range rifle work now so that is probably going to double this year.

I've had my eye on a fairly cheap SxS ($250) that I would use in trap and skeet plus would be my new bird and rabbit gun.

I didn't know SxS's came together at a certain distance, I figured it was like an O/U that would simply fire straight right next to each other giving you "basically" the same shot out each barrel.
 
They should all hit the same spot ....or have the same point of impact..

but if the barrels are not properly constructed ...like the Huglu O/U that an acquaintance bought ...at 21 yards one barrel was high left about 8" and the other barrel was low right about 10" ...or an 18" spread ( which made it next to impossible to hit anything consistently with that gun )....

Qty of shells is relative ...but trust me, there are a lot of even casual competition shooters - shooting at least 5,000 registered targets ( tournament targets a year ) ...and practice at twice that easily ...so 15,000 targets a year isn't uncommon...among competition shooters...

I know quite a few guys that are retired or work for themselves - and they practice 3 days a week ( 2 or 3 hours ) - about 150 targets a day ...and then often shoot either Sat or Sunday/ sometimes both days in local registered shoots ....or easily 600 targets a week and when the regionals and bigger 4 day state tournaments come up -- they shoot at least 1,000 targets over those 4 day events between warm up, the registered shoot, after hours with a few crazy cash games... so call it 30,000 or 35,000 targets a year probably.

Yes, it does take money to do this ( but it takes money to do everything ) ...but if the kids are all grown, you don't have a weekend or 2nd house, don't like to snow-ski, don't like to play golf, don't have a boat, don't like to fish ...for a lot of guys shotgun shooting is a major hobby ....( my problem is I have too many hobbies / and I still work 3 - 4 days a week - because full time retirement would kill me, I'd be so busy .. ) ...:D

When I was raising kids in my 20's ...I didn't have a lot of extra money for shooting anything ...everything in moderation ..and over time ..../now I'm taking my grandkids shooting ...( so my expenses are up big time ..)...but my wife is very generous and does not make an issue out of it(for time or money ) ...as long as I keep it a little in perspective...
 
Zippy13 brought up regulation and that some gunmakers will regulate doubles to shoot to a specific point with both barrels for discriminating clients. Let's discuss that a bit. That is possible and you are then limited to that one specific load and spending your time standing square to the patterning board and making it your sole target.
First it is useful to understand what happens that causes side by sides whether they are rifles or shotguns to shoot each barrel to different points of impact with one poiint of aim. Basically it is because the centerline of the bores of each barrel are left and right of the centerline of the gun. When the right barrel is fired recoil pushes the muzzle up and to the right a small amount before the charge leaves the barrel in like manner when the left barrel is fired it moves up and left. What then happens with loads the gun is not regulated for is the right barrel impact on target to the right of the point of aim and the left barrel impacts to the left of the point of aim. For a right handed shooter the left divergence will generally be less due to the support hand on the forend and opposite for a right handed shooter.
To counter this SxS have their chambers paralell at the breech and then at a point, generally at the forend latch hook used as a fulcrum, they are bowed toward the centerline of the gun so that the centerlines of the bores are closer at the muzzles then they are at the breech. There is of course a limit to the amount of convergence towards center that can be built in and it normally is not enough to overcome completly the effects of recoil with shotguns that have light barrels unlike rifles that have significanlty more weight to offset recoil.
It's interesting that if you were to put lasers into the muzzles of a SxS shotgun so that the beams were aligned with the centerline of the bores you would find that the beams intersected generally 9 to 12 feet in front of the muzzles. This is with 20 through 12 Ga it will be somewhat longer with .410.
This amount of convergence is not going to be enough to bring loads to the point they will cross at any point however it is enough that while the left barrel will diverge left and the right barrel will diverge right within the general range of loads for the guage it will not be enough to make any difference.
For example a 12Ga load that diverges 4" right at 15yds and 4" left at the same distance will be off 12"right and 12"left at 35 yds. With the dimensions of the pattern that is not really significant. By the way what I just quoted is about the max you might see.
Also the above is only valid with the gun stationary when fired such as at a patterning board. When you shoot at flying targets and the gun is moving up down left or right the inertia of the moving gun will considerably offset the effects of recoil.
This is what I mean when I say that regulating a shotgun is a fallacy. Shotguns are layed up to be reasonable close with the general range of loads for the guage. That is all that is necessary.
 
Interesting ...

And I know you said 12" left and 12" right is the max ... but that would be a 24" spread between them, if I'm understanding your point correctly...

So with a Modified choke at 35 yds giving you about a 36" pattern ....to center that target in the pattern ...you're going to have to adjust your lead with one barrel vs the other ....on a hard crosser moving right to left ....if you felt like you wanted 8 feet of sustained lead with an O/U on that target .... then with a SXS - you'd want about 7 feet with the left barrel and 9 feet with the right barrel (worst case) ..../ or am I missing something ?

And is that 2 Feet of lead variation / if you're shooting sustained lead ...a big deal ...it seems like a lot of adjustment to make as you switch barrels ...( and another reason why I like shooting O/U's vs SXS's perhaps ...). Shooting a SXS consistently might take more talent than I posess ....( I had wanted to be as quick as a Cat - but I was born like a Buffalo - so this is as good as it gets ...) ......

But interesting ...
 
Jim you didn't read all that I said. I said that the inertia of the moving gun largely overides the effect of recoil. I was only pointing out the fallacy that SxS shotguns are regulated to print both barrels to the same point of aim at a certain distance.
The example I was using was what you might expect to see if you took say a light 12Ga SxS best suited for a snappy 1 Oz upland load and fed it a 1&1/4 mag load.
If such things are important to a person you can adjust the load you use to the gun and get them mighty close. It just won't do much paracticaly except make you feel good.
 
SxS

Well Biped, You asked about a SxS for around $400, Here's one for a lot less than that.
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I got this one at the Big 5 in Poulsbo, WA for $259+tax. I really don't think it will "burn off" 1/4 of a million shells, but to shoot beer cans out in the desert, "Your In"! Get One and have FUN.
 
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