Dots, holosights, illuminated scopes and range finders after EMP strike?
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ShootistPRS
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Most of the red dot and green dot holo sights use diodes so they would be toast.
Protecting small things is pretty easy to do. You place the item in a plastic zip-lock baggie (sandwich to 1 gallon freezer bag), make an envelope of heavy duty aluminum foil (like used to bake the turkey on thanksgiving), place the bag with the item in the foil envelope and double roll the opening so it seals. Place the foil envelope in another bag, put that bag into another aluminum foil envelope, put the whole thing into another bag and seal all of it in a third foil envelope. That will likely protect your item from an HEMP. If you need to use the item you can unfold the foil envelopes and open the zip-lock bags and when you are done you can put it all back together and store it.
It would be harder to place a rifle into that package but you could save a scope, range finder, ballistics calculator or radio that way. If you are close enough to me after the HEMP I'll be listening on 11 and 80 meters.
Protecting small things is pretty easy to do. You place the item in a plastic zip-lock baggie (sandwich to 1 gallon freezer bag), make an envelope of heavy duty aluminum foil (like used to bake the turkey on thanksgiving), place the bag with the item in the foil envelope and double roll the opening so it seals. Place the foil envelope in another bag, put that bag into another aluminum foil envelope, put the whole thing into another bag and seal all of it in a third foil envelope. That will likely protect your item from an HEMP. If you need to use the item you can unfold the foil envelopes and open the zip-lock bags and when you are done you can put it all back together and store it.
It would be harder to place a rifle into that package but you could save a scope, range finder, ballistics calculator or radio that way. If you are close enough to me after the HEMP I'll be listening on 11 and 80 meters.
Y'all just swing by and pick me up afterwards... I'll have plenty of ammunition... and no electricity hahahahahaha. I'm not so worried about dot scopes, those rifles have irons anyway most of my optics are non powered.
This actually has been pretty interesting to me, I've done quite a bit of reading on the subject now since this one was posted.
I had originally assumed that a nuclear EMP was similar to switching transients, and it is not. Not at least the E1 pulse mentioned above; the E1 pulse would damage most of the transient voltage suppression devices designed to protect against your everyday pulses.
That's a kick in the rear, because a second pulse would come that is more like a switching event or a lightning strike and finish off some more electrical stuff that had been weakened by the first.
Now I haven't looked into this next item, so I'm going to make an assumption that since the earth's magnetic took what we could equate to a punch in the groin, that the field is going to rebound as it recovers in a long slow wave. Not sure what the last wave will do but I can assume that any surviving electrical devices would have some odd effects. Definitely some grid voltage anomalies.
Thanks for setting me straight.
This actually has been pretty interesting to me, I've done quite a bit of reading on the subject now since this one was posted.
I had originally assumed that a nuclear EMP was similar to switching transients, and it is not. Not at least the E1 pulse mentioned above; the E1 pulse would damage most of the transient voltage suppression devices designed to protect against your everyday pulses.
That's a kick in the rear, because a second pulse would come that is more like a switching event or a lightning strike and finish off some more electrical stuff that had been weakened by the first.
Now I haven't looked into this next item, so I'm going to make an assumption that since the earth's magnetic took what we could equate to a punch in the groin, that the field is going to rebound as it recovers in a long slow wave. Not sure what the last wave will do but I can assume that any surviving electrical devices would have some odd effects. Definitely some grid voltage anomalies.
Thanks for setting me straight.
There are some additional points to consider, one of which is "size" (strength, power, however measured), not the geographical area covered.
EMP is created as one of the effects of a nuclear detonation. The strength of the effect varies with a large number of variables.
Within the area of effect it is known to fry just about everything that relies on a micro chip, and even vacuum tube devices can be affected, it the pulse is close enough and strong enough.
Shielding is protection, BUT, as I understand it (and my understanding might be flawed) if your stuff is shielded against "X", if you are hit with X.1, your stuff is toast.
Home made shielding (assuming it was enough) can only work when what you want protected is inside it.
Unless you know just WHEN an EMP burst is going to arrive, will your vital things even BE in shielded storage??
SO, assume any "modern" electronic anything will be toast. That includes cars with electronic ignitions. Don't assume you can grab a distributor off the (unshielded) shelf, slap in a rig and drive away, either.
And, of course all this assumes you are outside the radius of the physical blast effect AND the radiation.
Don't expect electronic sights to work, if they do, be pleasantly surprised, but don't plan on them working after a high enough EMP pulse.
EMP is created as one of the effects of a nuclear detonation. The strength of the effect varies with a large number of variables.
Within the area of effect it is known to fry just about everything that relies on a micro chip, and even vacuum tube devices can be affected, it the pulse is close enough and strong enough.
Shielding is protection, BUT, as I understand it (and my understanding might be flawed) if your stuff is shielded against "X", if you are hit with X.1, your stuff is toast.
Home made shielding (assuming it was enough) can only work when what you want protected is inside it.
Unless you know just WHEN an EMP burst is going to arrive, will your vital things even BE in shielded storage??
SO, assume any "modern" electronic anything will be toast. That includes cars with electronic ignitions. Don't assume you can grab a distributor off the (unshielded) shelf, slap in a rig and drive away, either.
And, of course all this assumes you are outside the radius of the physical blast effect AND the radiation.
Don't expect electronic sights to work, if they do, be pleasantly surprised, but don't plan on them working after a high enough EMP pulse.
ShootistPRS
New member
44 AMP,
The E1 pulse is caused be gamma rays knocking electrons free from atmospheric atoms. The more atmosphere it goes through the more "powerful" the pulse is. You don't have to worry about radiation or blast from a high altitude device. They are detonated at altitudes that don't propagate explosive blasts and the atmosphere protects us from the radiation. All you will notice is a bright flash (not blinding) in the sky and then none of your unprotected electronics will work. Then you might see a few pole mounted transformers explode and following that the major transmission lines and big generators and transformers will burst into flame. Then your lights go out, the water stops running, and all the electrical things we depend on quit working.
Why would South Korea target a city with a small nuke when they can put one in orbit and let it circle the earth until it goes over Wichita and take out the entire nation? Even the middle eastern countries have the capability to make such a surprise attack. It would be improbable that a source could be found for the detonation so even though some of our military gear would survive we would have no way to know who to shoot at.
The E1 pulse is caused be gamma rays knocking electrons free from atmospheric atoms. The more atmosphere it goes through the more "powerful" the pulse is. You don't have to worry about radiation or blast from a high altitude device. They are detonated at altitudes that don't propagate explosive blasts and the atmosphere protects us from the radiation. All you will notice is a bright flash (not blinding) in the sky and then none of your unprotected electronics will work. Then you might see a few pole mounted transformers explode and following that the major transmission lines and big generators and transformers will burst into flame. Then your lights go out, the water stops running, and all the electrical things we depend on quit working.
Why would South Korea target a city with a small nuke when they can put one in orbit and let it circle the earth until it goes over Wichita and take out the entire nation? Even the middle eastern countries have the capability to make such a surprise attack. It would be improbable that a source could be found for the detonation so even though some of our military gear would survive we would have no way to know who to shoot at.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
A question more in line for a TFL-oriented topic: How will a key-pad gun safe be affected?
JoeSixpack
New member
From I know of the subject.
1. Unpowered electronics will have a much better survival rate.
2. Battery and low power electronics will again have better survival rate
3. Small electronics will have better survival rates.
4. Equipment not hooked to the electrical grid will have MUCH higher survival rate.
an EMP is likely to do major damage to power transmission lines and radio equipment, Conductor length will play a roll, longer wire = greater effect.
I'd guess small electronics like are in your red dot will probably survive more often then not especially if they are unpowered (which they likely will be)
It wont be like the movies where all the cars stop working every computer is fried.
They don't REALLY know how modern electronics will fare, If you wanna build a cage that's fine as someone pointed out they're not particularly expensive or complex but Im less worried about a EMP and more worried about blast Radius..
If one hit the closest major city to me Im right on the edge of what MIGHT be survival depending on what type of nuke is used.
Just my luck I'll survive the blast, Get a massive dose of radiation and be the walking dead slowly dying.
Better to fry in the inner zone.
Only comfort (if you can call it that) If someone was to nuke the US Ohio is probably not a high first strike priority.
If North Korea followed thru and attacked the mainland US they would probably target CA.. closest target with a high population, Heart of the I.T industry, Fair bit of Military targets too..
But I think if someone lets off a Nuke they're going for body count.
1. Unpowered electronics will have a much better survival rate.
2. Battery and low power electronics will again have better survival rate
3. Small electronics will have better survival rates.
4. Equipment not hooked to the electrical grid will have MUCH higher survival rate.
an EMP is likely to do major damage to power transmission lines and radio equipment, Conductor length will play a roll, longer wire = greater effect.
I'd guess small electronics like are in your red dot will probably survive more often then not especially if they are unpowered (which they likely will be)
It wont be like the movies where all the cars stop working every computer is fried.
They don't REALLY know how modern electronics will fare, If you wanna build a cage that's fine as someone pointed out they're not particularly expensive or complex but Im less worried about a EMP and more worried about blast Radius..
If one hit the closest major city to me Im right on the edge of what MIGHT be survival depending on what type of nuke is used.
Just my luck I'll survive the blast, Get a massive dose of radiation and be the walking dead slowly dying.
Better to fry in the inner zone.
Only comfort (if you can call it that) If someone was to nuke the US Ohio is probably not a high first strike priority.
If North Korea followed thru and attacked the mainland US they would probably target CA.. closest target with a high population, Heart of the I.T industry, Fair bit of Military targets too..
But I think if someone lets off a Nuke they're going for body count.
Here is the PDF of an unclassified EMP effects presentation I did several years ago for the Arizona Department of Emergency Management. The laws of physics haven't changed in that time, so it's a reasonable overview. For those of you with PhD's in EM, I know I left a lot out between Maxwell's Equations and results and jumped to the practicalities.
The focus of this presentation was on a ground based truck delivered Improvised Nuclear Device. When you elevate the nuclear device to very high altitudes, the LD50 (electronic lethal range) footprint is very large, likely order of magnitude 1000 miles.
An added note: For the abbreviated version on why it doesn't matter if your electronics are powered up or not, go to slides 15 and 16. Slide 19 shows a notional footprint of a near-ground burst device, not HEMP.
Damage Expectations from an Electro Magnetic Pulse (EMP) in an Urban Environment
ITAR DISCLAIMER: Pursuant to the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) 2008, a public domain exemption is claimed, including one or more of the following: 120(a), 120(a) (1), 120(a) (6), and 120.11(a) (8).
The focus of this presentation was on a ground based truck delivered Improvised Nuclear Device. When you elevate the nuclear device to very high altitudes, the LD50 (electronic lethal range) footprint is very large, likely order of magnitude 1000 miles.
An added note: For the abbreviated version on why it doesn't matter if your electronics are powered up or not, go to slides 15 and 16. Slide 19 shows a notional footprint of a near-ground burst device, not HEMP.
Damage Expectations from an Electro Magnetic Pulse (EMP) in an Urban Environment
ITAR DISCLAIMER: Pursuant to the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) 2008, a public domain exemption is claimed, including one or more of the following: 120(a), 120(a) (1), 120(a) (6), and 120.11(a) (8).
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If you see the flash from a nuclear weapon, you'll probably never have another good day in your life. We'd have already lost our ability to have electric power; transportation would be minimal, because there probably wouldn't be just one blast. It will be the end of our country or perhaps the world, as we know it.
I lived through the fear of nuclear weapons all my early life (1950s) and refuse to worry about it now. If I die, I die.
JP
I lived through the fear of nuclear weapons all my early life (1950s) and refuse to worry about it now. If I die, I die.
JP
ShootistPRS
New member
Art,
there are two types of EMP. A solar EMP, solar flare or coronal mass ejection only affects long wires and devices connected to them. Large transformers and power generators have a lot of wire in them so they are also affected. Small runs of wire and electronics are not affected by solar EMPs.
The HEMP is very different. There are three pulses from a high altitude nuclear detonation. The E3 is very much like the solar event and carries the same destruction. The E2 is a faster rise time event with higher voltages and affects shorter runs of wires and transformers like are on the pole outside on the street. Only the E1 pulse will effect electronics and it does so with a very high voltage. 50000 volts per meter is on the moderate voltage for these E1 pulses. It can penetrate deep into the ground and get into very small holes to your electronic equipment. It burns the junction in diodes and transistors rendering them useless.
The E1 pulse comes first, in the first milliseconds of the detonation. Followed by the E2 pulse and then the E3 pulse hits. The E3 pulse has the highest current flow and that is why long wires, transformers and generators burst into flames. The E2 pulse has higher voltages that the E3 but lower current and it affects shorter runs of wire (1/4 mile instead of mile long wires) like the street transformers. The only thing that is affected by the E1 pulse is the junction of semiconductors and the smaller the junction the more susceptible it is. A very large high amp discrete diode is less likely to be damaged than the diodes in an integrated circuit. The battery isolator in a motor home has three diodes that are huge and will likely survive better than the CPU in your computer or the IC in your safe keypad. The smaller the diode the more sensitive they are to voltage spikes. The E1 is one huge voltage spike. That it why it is important to use the most conductive metals when making shielding against it. Aluminum, copper, silver or gold are the only acceptable metals for this purpose. It happens faster than a lightning bolt. It takes less than 4 millionths of a second from start to finish and carries 50000 volts per meter over the entire affected area. The atmosphere is ionized to the point where it will not carry radio signals for minutes after.
there are two types of EMP. A solar EMP, solar flare or coronal mass ejection only affects long wires and devices connected to them. Large transformers and power generators have a lot of wire in them so they are also affected. Small runs of wire and electronics are not affected by solar EMPs.
The HEMP is very different. There are three pulses from a high altitude nuclear detonation. The E3 is very much like the solar event and carries the same destruction. The E2 is a faster rise time event with higher voltages and affects shorter runs of wires and transformers like are on the pole outside on the street. Only the E1 pulse will effect electronics and it does so with a very high voltage. 50000 volts per meter is on the moderate voltage for these E1 pulses. It can penetrate deep into the ground and get into very small holes to your electronic equipment. It burns the junction in diodes and transistors rendering them useless.
The E1 pulse comes first, in the first milliseconds of the detonation. Followed by the E2 pulse and then the E3 pulse hits. The E3 pulse has the highest current flow and that is why long wires, transformers and generators burst into flames. The E2 pulse has higher voltages that the E3 but lower current and it affects shorter runs of wire (1/4 mile instead of mile long wires) like the street transformers. The only thing that is affected by the E1 pulse is the junction of semiconductors and the smaller the junction the more susceptible it is. A very large high amp discrete diode is less likely to be damaged than the diodes in an integrated circuit. The battery isolator in a motor home has three diodes that are huge and will likely survive better than the CPU in your computer or the IC in your safe keypad. The smaller the diode the more sensitive they are to voltage spikes. The E1 is one huge voltage spike. That it why it is important to use the most conductive metals when making shielding against it. Aluminum, copper, silver or gold are the only acceptable metals for this purpose. It happens faster than a lightning bolt. It takes less than 4 millionths of a second from start to finish and carries 50000 volts per meter over the entire affected area. The atmosphere is ionized to the point where it will not carry radio signals for minutes after.
ShootistPRS
New member
It is vitally important to recognize that there is no direct danger to human or other life forms from a high altitude nuclear detonation. There will be a flash of light. There will not be a blast. There will not be any harmful radiation.
TXAZ did an extremely good job of showing the effects from a ground burst detonation but it has little to do with the effects of an HEMP. The only people who will be directly or indirectly affected by an HEMP are those who depend on electronics for life. People in an ICU or those on kidney dialysis. Your pace maker may be affected. (the pace maker is embedded in your body and may not be affected)
The E1 pulse is generated locally over a very wide area. If you are in a line of sight with the HEMP your electronics will be affected unless they are shielded. A typical Faraday cage will not stop the E1 pulse. You need highly conductive solid shielding and multiple layers are better than one thick shield. (due mostly to the capacitive effect)
TXAZ did an extremely good job of showing the effects from a ground burst detonation but it has little to do with the effects of an HEMP. The only people who will be directly or indirectly affected by an HEMP are those who depend on electronics for life. People in an ICU or those on kidney dialysis. Your pace maker may be affected. (the pace maker is embedded in your body and may not be affected)
The E1 pulse is generated locally over a very wide area. If you are in a line of sight with the HEMP your electronics will be affected unless they are shielded. A typical Faraday cage will not stop the E1 pulse. You need highly conductive solid shielding and multiple layers are better than one thick shield. (due mostly to the capacitive effect)
Some folk might remember the Kirkland Trestle all wood EMP testing stage.
It was a truly unique structure built almost entirely of wood and airplanes were towed out onto it and then subjected to electromagnetic pulses. They were able to generate EMP's without a nuclear explosion. A story about it is here:
http://ece-research.unm.edu/summa/notes/trestle.html
It was a truly unique structure built almost entirely of wood and airplanes were towed out onto it and then subjected to electromagnetic pulses. They were able to generate EMP's without a nuclear explosion. A story about it is here:
http://ece-research.unm.edu/summa/notes/trestle.html
ShootistPRS
New member
The biggest problem in testing against HEMP is the difficulty in duplicating the extremely fast rise time and short duration in a 50000 volt spike. Transformers and super fast capacitors just can't duplicate the brute force of the HEMP. That is why super computers are used in testing now. A gap or hole of 0.1mm can defeat an HEMP shield.
JoeSixpack
New member
The EMP won't but an air burst will still have air blast causing over pressure (shock wave) which will knock down buildings for considerable distance.
You'll still have to contend with thermal heat causing fires and burns.
You just don't have all the (now radioactive) debris you'd get with a surface detonation getting tossed into the atmosphere as fallout.
It's not like a air burst nuke just knocks electronics out and we're good to go.
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