Don't stress your press

If you have to put some muscle into sizing when the die and shellholder is bottomed out , I would think it's over stressing your press . It could be in my situation , my cases don't require to much sizing , if my chamber was larger , requiring more sizing I could relate to having a harder time sizing , but I don't so I might not be so helpful in this post . Always good talking to my friends though.

Chris
 
.....if my chamber was larger , requiring more sizing I could relate to having a harder time sizing.....
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Not picking, but if the chamber was larger, wouldn't that equate to less sizing?? That is, if you wanted to keep the case close to rifle specs and not SAAMI specs.
 
Metal god
Found a perfect example why not to cam over . If I were helping you get over a wall , you at 6'3 and 280 pounds , standing on my shoulders my knees big guy wouldn't last too long . Let me go first , I'll lower a rope to feel the strain. How are your joints doing . Be Well

Chris
 
Excuse me for jumping in where I am no expert. I have a cam over press and I set it to cam over on my body dies. I reload for bolt and AR style rifles. I also use Redding competition shell holders to control the measurement of base to ogive. For my AR style guns I use the shell holder that my measurement to a new case base to ogive measurement. This turns out to be the 06 shell holder. For my bolt guns I use a shell holder that lowers my reading by .001 or .002. This happens to be 08 shell holder. If I used a standard shell holder I would have much shorter measurements. I would also be overworking the brass. It is very easy to use a cam over press and get the measurement you want with this accessory. I see that this has already been noted in the posts above. I know of no other way to control the base to ogive measurement and cam over the press. I suppose a washer (spacer) that went around the case and rested on the shell holder would work. But it also would be a fragile shim thickness.

I will also add that any of the dies that use a sliding guide (Redding Competition seating and neck dies for example) for the brass should never be cammed over.
 
Dufus
My way of thinking . When the case is wider or longer , both are putting some stress on the press but that's what its designed to do .when a case is longer then spec then you don't have to cam over to get your .002 setback and the shell holder and the die wouldn't bottom , I never liked that idea , that's why I went with the competition shellholders , the case is supported top to bottom . As Dawg tested the brass creeps into the case neck , also a reason to trim after sizing . Why someone has to screw the die down even more after die and shellholder are bottomed out , I can't wrap my head around that unless something is out of spec , shellholder , die or chamber .

PS
l always have to double check my posts , this tablet or whatever you call it keeps changing my words , once I answered a post from a guy called pipe guy and this thing changed it to tit guy . By the time I went back to the post I couldn't correct . He never answered my question . Sorry pipe guy , should have cut it short and just said guy .
 
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Why someone has to screw the die down even more after die and shellholder are bottomed out , I can't wrap my head around that unless something is out of spec , shellholder , die or chamber .
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I think we talked about it here but it depends on when the die and shell holder are making contact . I have pics showing the die and shell holder making contact before sizing but when sizing they no longer touch . In that case you'd need to screw it down more after they touched . If they are making contact at the top of the stoke when sizing a case then there is no need to adjust further , the case is not going to be sized any more then it already has at that point . Well unless you subscribe to the theory holding the ram at the top for a second or two will actually size the case more .

I know that does not make sense worded that way but it's what is meant . The theory is holding the ram at the top for a count or two reduces spring back on the case resulting in the case being shorter from head to datum point then it other wise would have been . That to me means holding it at the top sizes your cases shorter . Haha how's that for a can of worms this thread didn't need lol .

once I answered a post from a guy called pipe guy and this thing changed it to tit guy
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Happens to me all the time but it's not auto correct , it's just me pushing the wrong keys . I go back sometimes and look at what I wrote and think what the heck was that . Not sure if you guys have ever noticed but my posts are always edited , that's why haha . Maybe proof reading before submitting is a good idea for me .:o
 
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Why someone has to screw the die down even more after die and shellholder are bottomed out , I can't wrap my head around that unless something is out of spec , shellholder , die or chamber .
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I understand it gets complicated when threads are added, threads in the press and threads on the dies; not for me. The case has an ability to resist sizing, if the press can not overcome the cases' ability to resist sizing the reloader 'MUST' find a way to increase the presses anility to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing or reduce the cases ability to resist sizing. (I know, for most it got more complicated)

(It is possible I am the only one) I have increased the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing by placing a shim between the deck of the shell holder and case head before raising the ram. I use the same method when sizing cases for short chambers because I am limited by the amount I can reduce the length of the case when the die contacts the shell holder.

I am not infatuated with this thing called 'be nice to your press'; I understand the Redding Competition shell holders are nice,, I have one #6 set. I paid $5.00 for it. I have never used any of the shell holders from the set but I have it just in case (JIC). I am not convinced reloaders that do not use the Competition shell holders are tacky people and I do not believe if I purchased 6 sets for $440.00 dollars I would have a leg up on other reloaders.

And then it gets more complicated because of alignment: Not for me. One minute the reloader wants to be nice to his/her press and then he wants to jam the die down to the shell holder as in 'far enough',

And then comes the 'and then moment': And then I use the common ordinary everyday shell holder without the 'lift kit':rolleyes: Instead of the additional height I adjust the die off the shell holder with a feeler gage with a thickness of .006". When I raise the ram the press can not punish its self because I have adjusted the die off the shell holder.

And I wonder why you think your are better that anyone else because you use the Redding competition shell holders. I understand the selling point is sizing the case while the die is doing wonders when jammed up against the shell holder, I am told it simple does wonders. Back to alignment, My case aligns the ram with the die.

None of my presses have alignment pins, I have alignment pins, I have tools that make tapered pins for alignment and I have drills that are tapered and I have taps and tapered reamers to drill tapered threads in a tapered hole for tapered pins.

F. Guffey
 
the sliding guide?

I will also add that any of the dies that use a sliding guide (Redding Competition seating and neck dies for example) for the brass should never be cammed over.
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There is a thing called 'gets your money back'. It should be impossible to shorten the case between the shoulder/datum and the case head with a neck sizing die, I do not care how many stars fly out from between the die and shell holder.

F. Guffey
 
Metal
I could see spring back when the case is out of the die , but inside the die with no where to go , maybe more like spring in , kind of blows that theory . Two second rule I always thought when food hit the floor , if you got it in two seconds it was alright to eat . That's my spring back . This post is like using the word headspace , some do and some don't . As long as we turn out accurate safe reloads , is all that matters , even though some will have to buy new presses , ha ha.
PS
I'll be on this forum often , blow out my right knee and lower back playing with the grandkids , I'm walking like John Wayne but it was worth it , had a good time .

Chris
 
F. Guffey said:
There is a thing called 'gets your money back'. It should be impossible to shorten the case between the shoulder/datum and the case head with a neck sizing die, I do not care how many stars fly out from between the die and shell holder.

F. Guffey
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Wow you are dead on. What an insane comment by me. But all of this discussion is singling out a single part of a process. In my process I anneal every time before I resize. I know it is totally unnecessary. I am not trying to convince anyone that this is the only way to do this process. But I get remarkably consistent cases. I still do first and random checks but it never varies by more than .001". I am convinced the soft brass has minimum resistance to sizing and therefore comes out the same every time. My thought is soft brass will conform more easily to the die. The cam over (slight) is like double bumping a powder thrower. It is just a very consistent force. I shoot ARs and bolt guns in the same calibers. It was also consistent from 223 to 308 I used a competition shell holder of 06 for both ars (to return to new brass spec and an 08 shell holder for the bolt guns to minimize working the brass. In the bolt guns I use Lapua brass. In the ARs I use a mix of winchester Federal and mostly LC. I claim no expertise in the matter, but I know this works for me. It was a learning process that was derived from lots of reading and many hours of experimentation. This means in some opinions it is: wrong, unnecessary, foolish, a waste of time, stupid, treasonous, illegal, impossible, and every other adjective you want to throw in.

This morning I posted some SDs from a recent load test. Here They are decent. The brass was pulled LC cases (case and primer) from Midway. It was sorted by number and that is all. I do not understand all that occurs during the process but I know what seems to be working for me. My reasoning no matter how wrong is working for me.

Donning flame proof suit, I am now open to criticism.
 
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If I used a standard shell holder I would have much shorter measurements. I would also be overworking the brass. It is very easy to use a cam over press and get the measurement you want with this accessory.
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jugornot, please forgive, I use common, ordinary, everyday, nothing special shell holders, my shell holders have a deck height of .125". MY common ordinary everyday, nothing special RCBS shell holders allow me to size cases for short chambers. long chambers and ever thing in between. that would include cases that are .010" shorter from the shoulder of the case to the case head than a minimum length sized case to one that is .002" longer than a field reject length chamber from the shoulder to the case head. That is 26 different case length from the shoulder/datum to the case head. All I use for all of that is a feeler gage set. I could go to infinity but I avoid showing off.

When it comes to measuring the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face I can modify a go-gage to measure a chamber length from go-gage length to infinity. Problem' I can not get into datums without everyone going all silly on me.

If I choose to shorten the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head I add a shim between the deck of the shell holder and case head. If I want to increase the length of the case from the case head to the shoulder of the case I add a shim between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die. And then? I adjust the die to the shim and then secure the die to the press with the lock ring.

For this method and or technique to work for other reloaders we must find reloaders that understand cam over. To understand cam over the reloader must be able to measure the amount of cam over. I have both cam over and non cam over presses. In the big inning cam over presses were called 'bump' presses. The bump did not qualify the reloader to be a 'bump the shoulder back' reloader, the bump meant the ram pumped the die twice, once on the way up and again once on the way down.

"WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?"

It meant the die had to be adjusted when the die contacted the shell holder, the adjustment was not designed to be made after the die/ram cammed over.


Again, a friend lowered his die .052" after contact on a cam over press that had .017" cam over built into his A2 RCBS press, that is equal to lowering the die 3/4 turn plus anything else he did not understand. He screwed the die out with a pipe wrench, I thought that was a good ideal because?:eek: To lower the ram on his cam over press he first had to raise the ram 1/4 turn. The 1/4 turn plus the .051" bind he had his press in when I arrived equaled 1 full turn (1 full turn is equal to .071")

F. Guffey
 
I see exactly what you are saying. The shim method is probably a more accurate way of doing the same thing as the shell holders. It is also cheaper. Good on both counts. But in my reloading I have seen cases that seem very resistant to sizing. I have taken the shell holders all the way to the 10 one and still did not get the measurement I wanted. Annealing solved this for me. How do you handle this situation, if you run out of room for shims (feeler gauges?) Or has this ever occurred?

As far as the cam over I would expect the exact situation you describe. At my job we have presses that closed with many tons of pressure. They consisted of an upper and lower platen with side links attached to the top platen and a bull gear in the lower platen. If the brakes on the motor failed the press would over-travel (go beyond BDC.) The next couple of hours were spent manually jacking the press back to the correct side of BDC.

Finally my suggestion is to use the same brand shell holder as die. I have a Lyman shell holder that measures much different than my Reddings.
 
Finally my suggestion is to use the same brand shell holder as die. I have a Lyman shell holder that measures much different than my Reddings.
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In a book of great orators was a debate between two groups; the group responding to a question said: "As sure as I am there is but one god I am as sure he has not dealt with us equally etc.' etc." .

I said my shell holders have a deck height of .125" meaning it does not matter what brand of shell holder I use. Years ago I purchased 2 counter display box of dies. On the bottom of the box was printed the instructions. The reloaders was instructed to use 'these' die with a shell holder with a deck height of .125". Meaning it was not until the inventions of the Internet reloaders started the story about matching die brands to shell holder brands. I have a depth micrometers, I have height gages and I have dial calipers that measure height.

Again, there is 'get your money back', I sort the shell holders that are not spec. and then separate. All of the shell holders I have that give manufacturers a bad repetition were made in the mid 50s.

But in my reloading I have seen cases that seem very resistant to sizing. I have taken the shell holders all the way to the 10 one and still did not get the measurement I wanted.
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Not fair, when I choose to size the case to minimum length/full length size I use my common ordinary everyday RCBS shell holder which is the .000" one. If I choose to avoid reducing the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head .010" I would use the .010" one with the added .010" increase in deck height.

F. Guffey
 
Case resistance to sizing: Yes, there are time the case wins, other time the press wins. And? I use a no name lube when it gets really difficult to size.

F. Guffey
 
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Finally my suggestion is to use the same brand shell holder as die. I have a Lyman shell holder that measures much different than my Redding
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Just having all the same brand would work but over the years I have shell holders made by at least four different manufacturers so what I do is this

I keep my dies in a workbench organizer I got at a hardware store. Each cartridge has it's own drawer and each drawer has a shell holder in it that is only used with that cartridge. Shell holders are pretty cheap, it is a easy way to get consistency. Just get one for each die box or however you store your dies
 
hounddawg said:
Just having all the same brand would work but over the years I have shell holders made by at least four different manufacturers so what I do is this

I keep my dies in a workbench organizer I got at a hardware store. Each cartridge has it's own drawer and each drawer has a shell holder in it that is only used with that cartridge. Shell holders are pretty cheap, it is a easy way to get consistency. Just get one for each die box or however you store your dies
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That works also. Once again it appeals to my inner demons to have a system that is so consistent across calibers and dies. My wife (who is a a Special Ed teacher (makes sense now doesn't it)) says I have mild OCD. As a OCD gestaltist I like when parts of the whole bring harmony to the whole.:p These are not over riding concerns but mild considerations. Broke my heart when I quit using The matching Redding competition neck sizers, but they were incompatible with the WFT trimmers. The Lee collet neck sizers are compatible.

This leads me back to the original topic of the thread. It requires much more input to my press to use the collet dies than the slight cam over of the body dies. And yes I feel the movement of the brass. When I used a full sizing die with and expander ball, the lowering of the ram was the most stressful part of the stroke. I almost believe that I could forgo using lube with the method/system I have come up with. At this time I won't test this theory. The lanolin alcohol mix is pretty cheap.
 
I use the expander ball in my RCBS Standard Full Length Sizing die , it works very well and smooth . I'm sure alot of things come into play , brass thickness and how tight your chamber is . I have to look at my notes to see the outer dimension of the fired case neck. I don't lock down the stem I sandwich a O Ring between two washers at the top of the die between the lock nut , allows the ball and stem to self center . I feel very little resistance and average runout is .001 , if I neck turned my cases I would give removing the expander ball a try . Maybe one day.
 
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