Don't stress your press
- Thread starter hounddawg
- Start date
As RCBS makes presses as well as dies, I figure that you can adjust the die per RCBS and its fine.
On the other hand, I choose to do it my way not because of the dreaded cam over but I don't like the results of that setting.
I think Forster dies says the same thing (or Lee?) 1/8 or 1/4 turn. I don't have an Redding.
Pretty rare to follow an mfg data and not get results and things work just fine.
Been a few, but not many over the years that it was, they got that wrong, it just does not work the way they said it did.
FWIW from Forster:
On the other hand, I choose to do it my way not because of the dreaded cam over but I don't like the results of that setting.
I think Forster dies says the same thing (or Lee?) 1/8 or 1/4 turn. I don't have an Redding.
Pretty rare to follow an mfg data and not get results and things work just fine.
Been a few, but not many over the years that it was, they got that wrong, it just does not work the way they said it did.
FWIW from Forster:
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Ron
Flattening a penny on a train track , brings back memories . What I meant by the nickel was the same as cam over , not a good thing to do .
Oh yeah, not a good thing to do. Will make your press pretty unhappy.
Never tried it but I suppose tomorrow I could try short of breaking the press. Figure a US Nickel is about 25% Nickel and 75% copper.
Ron
Flattening a penny on a train track , brings back memories . What I meant by the nickel was the same as cam over , not a good thing to do .
Oh yeah, not a good thing to do. Will make your press pretty unhappy.
Never tried it but I suppose tomorrow I could try short of breaking the press. Figure a US Nickel is about 25% Nickel and 75% copper.
Ron
this is the Internet
I have arbor presses, I have no problem with adding leverage to the handle with a pipe/cheater. I have modified arbore presses to size cases, for me? No problem because the arbor is designed to hold shell holder' because this is the Internet this information was unknown until today. And then there is the something that holds the die and a means for holding the plate that holds the die.
I have used this system when determining the dimensions of an unknow chamber. That requires holding the barrel with a plate with a tapered hole. Now: With the Arbor press there is no such thing as the case winning, I can reduce the case to a slug and If I ever wanted to know how much pressure that requires I would simply add a strain gage marked off in pounds and at the same time I could measure the deflection in thousandths but this is the Internet.
And there are rams that have fittings for pressure gages, that is some scary stuff; I have used a few that went up to 200,000 thousand pounds. that puts a whole new meaning to measure before and again after.
F. Guffey
I have cam over presses; it seems so unfair, my cam over presses are designed to cam over it has always been that way. And then came the 'AND THEN" moment; The Internet was invented.
I posted information about a smith that used an A2 RCBS press; he knew the press was a cam over press, he could never figure out what the cam over press did. Reminds me of a commercial running today about a your child complaining about her mother washing dishes before she loaded the dish washer. And she asked "What does the dish washer do?"
It seems you guys can not figure it out and you do not want anyone else figuring it out and you insist no one else knows.
Again: I have instructions for press operations, Unclenick has instructions for press operations.
I can not believe a simple phrase like adjust the die down 1/4 turn after contact could lock you up or as they say "drive you to the curb".
F. Guffey
Apparently it takes considerably more force to flatten a nickle than to resize a cartridge case. Who would have thought? I do not know about reloaders but there are hammers. I had a set of hammers with handles that were the same length. I know, that means nothing to reloaders but with a little practice I could match the swing and speed of the hammers, Still I understand that means nothing to reloaders but others would suggest getting a bigger hammer instead of hitting it harder. And then there were a few that developed a method for torqueing bolts with hammers, and then there were those that just hit the wrench harder with the same hammer..
And then there is the drop, if it is necessary to hit it harder simply increase the height of the drop.
F. Guffey
You throw out alittle bait in the water and see what happens . The post is don't stress your press . Why take things to the limit everytime , reloading isn't that complicated . You can buy 3 different brands of match grade ammo , find what works best in your rifle and go with that . Me factor is most of the problem with accurate shooting . Reloading is simple , some make it rocket science .
As posted , " Don't Stress Your Press ".
As posted , " Don't Stress Your Press ".
I have to ask cw308 , you use the Redding competition shell holders correct ? How do you use them correctly and not "stress" your press ?
In order for them to work as intended the die and shell holder need to make if not hard contact , at least firm contact or you will not have removed all the slack/flex/deflection in the press . Does this not put an extra load on the press other wise not there when sizing a case when the die and shell holder never touch ? How are you using the comp shell holders ?
When I first got my competition shell holders I actually screwed my die down far enough not to get cam over . What I found was that I was IMO forcing the die and shell holder together harder then needed . I'd size to the stop then give it a little extra push just to be sure . I learned later light cam over takes less effort on my part to size the case then when I had the die a little lower and a hard stop with an extra lean on the press handle .
This is why I keep talking about overly stressing the press . There is likely a load/stress point in which continually operating the press will do damage . The question should be what is the max load your press can continually handle . If light cam over does not get you there then the debate is moot . IMHO I stress my press less when sizing a 308 case with light cam over then if I were sizing a very large case like the 300WM or larger with no cam over and yet presses are designed to size those large cases all day . The largest case I size is a 270 and it is harder/takes more force to size then a 308 and may need twice as much force then a 223 case does .
As far as me/us making sizing a case more complicated then need be . I disagree or at least that's not what my intention is at all . I'm trying to have a better understanding of the issue . Nobody has given me any reason to believe cam over is hard on the press . Is leaning hard on the press arm to where you hear and feel the press snap/pop over the cam over good for the press ? No but that would be overly stressing the press IMO . I personally can barely feel the cam over I have .
In order for them to work as intended the die and shell holder need to make if not hard contact , at least firm contact or you will not have removed all the slack/flex/deflection in the press . Does this not put an extra load on the press other wise not there when sizing a case when the die and shell holder never touch ? How are you using the comp shell holders ?
When I first got my competition shell holders I actually screwed my die down far enough not to get cam over . What I found was that I was IMO forcing the die and shell holder together harder then needed . I'd size to the stop then give it a little extra push just to be sure . I learned later light cam over takes less effort on my part to size the case then when I had the die a little lower and a hard stop with an extra lean on the press handle .
This is why I keep talking about overly stressing the press . There is likely a load/stress point in which continually operating the press will do damage . The question should be what is the max load your press can continually handle . If light cam over does not get you there then the debate is moot . IMHO I stress my press less when sizing a 308 case with light cam over then if I were sizing a very large case like the 300WM or larger with no cam over and yet presses are designed to size those large cases all day . The largest case I size is a 270 and it is harder/takes more force to size then a 308 and may need twice as much force then a 223 case does .
As far as me/us making sizing a case more complicated then need be . I disagree or at least that's not what my intention is at all . I'm trying to have a better understanding of the issue . Nobody has given me any reason to believe cam over is hard on the press . Is leaning hard on the press arm to where you hear and feel the press snap/pop over the cam over good for the press ? No but that would be overly stressing the press IMO . I personally can barely feel the cam over I have .
Metal
I install the shellholder , raise the ram then lower the die to hit the shellholder lower the ram alittle , screw the die down , as a example , picture a clock 1 to 12 , I will lower 1 twelfth and feel if all the slop is out , remember I'm using a O Ring between the press and lockring on the die making it easy to fine tune .I can size to my measurements without adding force when raising the ram , lube of course.
PS
Have you tried the O Ring , once the lockring is locked on the die squeezing he O Ring between the press and ring , fine tuning the die height is easy on easy off . Works good for me. I go by feel , never had a issue sizing to the measurement I was looking for with my full sizing . The press I feel is very strong after having a royal screw up . I must have cleaned the doing and didn't have the right height on the decapper and blew out the primer pocket , first time I felt a hard size . Felt like such an A H. Press and die , shaft and pin were fine , the primer pocket sure looked strange . Strange things happen when you have your head up your gazoo.
Chris
I install the shellholder , raise the ram then lower the die to hit the shellholder lower the ram alittle , screw the die down , as a example , picture a clock 1 to 12 , I will lower 1 twelfth and feel if all the slop is out , remember I'm using a O Ring between the press and lockring on the die making it easy to fine tune .I can size to my measurements without adding force when raising the ram , lube of course.
PS
Have you tried the O Ring , once the lockring is locked on the die squeezing he O Ring between the press and ring , fine tuning the die height is easy on easy off . Works good for me. I go by feel , never had a issue sizing to the measurement I was looking for with my full sizing . The press I feel is very strong after having a royal screw up . I must have cleaned the doing and didn't have the right height on the decapper and blew out the primer pocket , first time I felt a hard size . Felt like such an A H. Press and die , shaft and pin were fine , the primer pocket sure looked strange . Strange things happen when you have your head up your gazoo.
Chris
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O ring may let it align better but does not do anything significant on the up stroke because the complete load is on the threads below the O-ring '
To quote Kathy Knewman , So what you're saying is . You watch for when the die and shell holder touch and stop as you actually see them touch rather then feel them touch as the ram stops ??
If the die and shell holder are making contact at the top of the stoke you are putting more load/stress on the press then is needed to simply size your case . It must be because the total load is based completely on how hard you press the die and shell holder together . Anything more then just the lightest kiss and you are putting more stress on the press then is needed unless you are watching for that kiss .
I know it sounds like I'm splitting hairs or challenging you but I'm not . Just pointing out what seems like an obvious fact . As soon as the die and shell holder touch ANY more pressure on the arm is putting more stress on the press then is needed . I don't think many have that good a feel to stop every time at the exact moment they touch . I believe Unclenick claims we as reloaders can't tell a difference of anything less the 10lbs of force when working the ram . According to some if the die does anything more then just barely kiss the shell holder your press is going to fail at some point do to that extra pressure . Now I've been arguing against that theory this whole time saying the press can handle a little extra that we all do if the die and shell holder make contact .
I still believe some are taking this whole idea out of context, They mean don't overly stress the press but are simply saying don't stress the press as if they are the same thing . The press is under quite a bit of stress when it sizes a case anyways .
To quote Kathy Knewman , So what you're saying is . You watch for when the die and shell holder touch and stop as you actually see them touch rather then feel them touch as the ram stops ??
If the die and shell holder are making contact at the top of the stoke you are putting more load/stress on the press then is needed to simply size your case . It must be because the total load is based completely on how hard you press the die and shell holder together . Anything more then just the lightest kiss and you are putting more stress on the press then is needed unless you are watching for that kiss .
I know it sounds like I'm splitting hairs or challenging you but I'm not . Just pointing out what seems like an obvious fact . As soon as the die and shell holder touch ANY more pressure on the arm is putting more stress on the press then is needed . I don't think many have that good a feel to stop every time at the exact moment they touch . I believe Unclenick claims we as reloaders can't tell a difference of anything less the 10lbs of force when working the ram . According to some if the die does anything more then just barely kiss the shell holder your press is going to fail at some point do to that extra pressure . Now I've been arguing against that theory this whole time saying the press can handle a little extra that we all do if the die and shell holder make contact .
I still believe some are taking this whole idea out of context, They mean don't overly stress the press but are simply saying don't stress the press as if they are the same thing . The press is under quite a bit of stress when it sizes a case anyways .
If you are referring to me , MG my definition of over stressing is causing more stress than necessary to accomplish the task. Never needed to cam over to set the shoulder back and never had a problem chambering a round. Now if I cam over I would be applying more stress than necessary to accomplish the task at hand
Metal
I like the back and forth , I think it's a matter of feel . When I set the die by feel and size the first few , I check the die to shellholder feel , must of the time I have to lower very slightly to get the same pressure when I first started . After that it remains the same . It's hard to explain a feel , it's more of a dead stop without pressure . It may be the flex in the O Ring , I'm not sure but it's worked well for me . The press is sizing 600+ 308's and 1800 45 ACP per year , I'm not beating the heck out of it for sure and I do baby it
I don't feel the press is under alot of stress when sizing the case , the case is a hollow brass thin tube being pushed up with a one inch steel rod inserted into a quarter inch thick steel die with a lube . What could add stress if the cases aren't cleaned properly or lubed . Insert a dry dirty case in a die , that's stress , lube it's sized smooth as silk .
I like the back and forth , I think it's a matter of feel . When I set the die by feel and size the first few , I check the die to shellholder feel , must of the time I have to lower very slightly to get the same pressure when I first started . After that it remains the same . It's hard to explain a feel , it's more of a dead stop without pressure . It may be the flex in the O Ring , I'm not sure but it's worked well for me . The press is sizing 600+ 308's and 1800 45 ACP per year , I'm not beating the heck out of it for sure and I do baby it
I don't feel the press is under alot of stress when sizing the case , the case is a hollow brass thin tube being pushed up with a one inch steel rod inserted into a quarter inch thick steel die with a lube . What could add stress if the cases aren't cleaned properly or lubed . Insert a dry dirty case in a die , that's stress , lube it's sized smooth as silk .
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OMG , last night I wrote a long response to both you guys and when I clicked submit the screen said we can't securely open this page and when I went back everything I wrote was gone 
I was so mad I had to put the keyboard down before I threw it .
Sorry I did not mean for that to go unanswered so long . Generally I was speaking to you but not specifically . I understand what you've been saying as far as you not needing to cam over to get consistent cases and except that . As I hope you understand I do need cam over or at least firm contact between die and shellholder to get that same consistency .
Agreed and has been my point-ish . I believe I actually have less stress on the press with light cam over then I do if I have a hard stop and it's me pushing down on the ram that dictates how much stress my press is under . At 6'3 & 280lbs when I lean on something it feels it .
It feels like I need less effort to cam over then the extra lean I'd put on the press if it made a hard stop .
That was an abbreviated version of last nights post that David Copperfield on me .
I was so mad I had to put the keyboard down before I threw it . Sorry I did not mean for that to go unanswered so long . Generally I was speaking to you but not specifically . I understand what you've been saying as far as you not needing to cam over to get consistent cases and except that . As I hope you understand I do need cam over or at least firm contact between die and shellholder to get that same consistency .
Agreed and has been my point-ish . I believe I actually have less stress on the press with light cam over then I do if I have a hard stop and it's me pushing down on the ram that dictates how much stress my press is under . At 6'3 & 280lbs when I lean on something it feels it .
It feels like I need less effort to cam over then the extra lean I'd put on the press if it made a hard stop . That was an abbreviated version of last nights post that David Copperfield on me .
too bad about the post MG, I think that has happened to all of us at some time. If you take to long to type in a post the board logs you out. I need to get back to my old habit of 24 hour posting like I used to do on the gamer boards. I would type in a response for a thread in Notepad and not post it until the following day after I had time to think it over
Anyway understood. I use a real shallow setback on my shoulders. I just did some trims on those 6CM cases and I use Wilson trimmers. The cases went into the holder almost as tight as fired cases but I double checked the shoulders and they were right at .002 - .0025. I don't think the press would cam over if I tried.
If I were shooting a M1 or a Springfield I would have to approach the situation differently
Anyway understood. I use a real shallow setback on my shoulders. I just did some trims on those 6CM cases and I use Wilson trimmers. The cases went into the holder almost as tight as fired cases but I double checked the shoulders and they were right at .002 - .0025. I don't think the press would cam over if I tried.
If I were shooting a M1 or a Springfield I would have to approach the situation differently
There is something that could be said.
Does cam-over damage presses? No, not really, you can run your press all the way through the cycle with only a few pounds of pressure being applied. You can turn the die in a few more thoudandths of an inch and raise that pressure, you can keep going until you can't do it any more, and then, you can get a piece of pipe to increase the leverage that you can exert.
Somewhere between the almost neglicible amount of extra pressure created by a hair's-breadth of cam over and the crazy force that can be applied by jumping up and down on an extension, every single press is going to reach a point where the bearing surfaces will begin to be damaged.
So I propose that we quit arguing about whether camming over is good or bad, or even whether it is necessary, and just agree on one thing.
Mechanical devices are not invulnerable to abuse, and camming a press over is abuse if you push too far.
Do it if you want to or need to but keep it minimal or your press may fail on you.
Does cam-over damage presses? No, not really, you can run your press all the way through the cycle with only a few pounds of pressure being applied. You can turn the die in a few more thoudandths of an inch and raise that pressure, you can keep going until you can't do it any more, and then, you can get a piece of pipe to increase the leverage that you can exert.
Somewhere between the almost neglicible amount of extra pressure created by a hair's-breadth of cam over and the crazy force that can be applied by jumping up and down on an extension, every single press is going to reach a point where the bearing surfaces will begin to be damaged.
So I propose that we quit arguing about whether camming over is good or bad, or even whether it is necessary, and just agree on one thing.
Mechanical devices are not invulnerable to abuse, and camming a press over is abuse if you push too far.
Do it if you want to or need to but keep it minimal or your press may fail on you.