Posted by markj: You guys are funny, this isnt about me, it is about a few folks that belive CCW permit holders need a higher level of training. but it has been entertqaining specially from them that are "trainers". Of course they will take this position, if they said otherwise folks would not come to them and pay them fo0r this service, so any non comercials out there want to post on this subject?
OK, let me try this.
Self defense shootings and LEO engagements have two things in common with air or armored combat and with serious emergencies that happen in an airplane or on a manned spacecraft or on a submarine: (1) they do not occur very frequently, and (2) in any one event, there is a large number of ways in which events may unfold.
So, in order to come up with strategies with which to handle them and, yes, to train for them, participants have to simulate the events, as realistically as possible. Scenarios are devised in which adversaries attempt to defeat each other, and/or in which participants try to react effectively to developments as they happen.
Some of our members here (I am not among them) have gone to the National Tactical Invitational, in which participants try out different approaches in realistic environs using simunitions.
One thing they can learn from this is that has been discussed in another thread is how to avoid getting killed in the event of a home invasion--how defensive tactics can be used more effectively than walking into an ambush.
Another thing that is learned from such simulation, and this is important here, is what kinds of skills are needed to shoot one or more assailants before they can shoot you should an imminent threat materialize--how fast you must be able to draw and fire, perhaps while running for cover, to make it out of there successfully.
I have alluded to some of the times and distances involved:
... draw very quickly (say, in 1.5 seconds), hit an assailant in center mass, who is probably moving, twice in, say, another .5 seconds or less, and if necessary, hit another assailant twice in a similar amount of time, at seven yards.
This, of course, is to be done without spraying bullets in a negligent manner that puts others at great risk.
Now most of us who have taken training believe that we will not be able to do that without practicing what we have been trained.
So, my question to you, markj, is this:
- Do you believe that most people can meet those performance objectives without training and practice, or
- do you somehow believe that the abilities I have described are somehow not likely to be needed, should the unlikely event of a person's having to defend himself or herself self out doors actually occur?
Remember, we're dealing with
conditional probabilities here. If no one attacks you, you don't need a gun at all, but if it does happen.... Also remember that
if you are not in imminent danger, you may not even draw your gun lawfully.
If your answer is the latter, and I remind you that the scenarios have been developed by experts and that we pay to have our police officers trained to be able to do those things among many others, perhaps you could enlighten us with the basis for your thinking.
By the way, I am discussing what William Lee described earlier as
.. the .. garden variety sd situations (in which one or two muggers approach you in a dark alley, parking lot, wherever),...
and I was ASE certified for over 20 years 