Don't get cover (?)

Keep in mind the 'knife distance' of about 20 yards.
Even if you score multiple CofM hits they are likely close enough to be on you before being incapacitated.
Unless you want to rely on the BGs all just standing there when you open fire (they may, they may flee, and do you want to RELY on this?) you need to move away from the problem.
Dropping and rolling sounds really tactical, until the BG is standing over you before halting the attack. Stay on your feet.
Movement darn well is cover. If you practice shooting at moving targets remember how poorly you did at first. The lead is going the other way now.
 
Lateral movement is good because you require them to move to reaquire the target. Backing straight up just moves you farther away which slowly makes you a tougher target, but lateral movement often means your opponent has to move his feet.


Studies have shown that people will often shoot where you were...not where you are....

So don't be where you were...or simply 10 feet farther back...MOVE!

Also........


Once you are on the ground it is darn awkward to get back up off it

And you have lost your mobility (for the most part)

So...if you are going prone...or something in between it had better be behind cover.

Which can be as little as a curb or as much as a building
 
I would say that tumbling, rolling, cart wheels, somersaults, trapeze acts and other feats of acrobatics while carrying a loaded handgun are probably not a good idea in any circumstance.

Dropping prone may save your life or be a fatal mistake depending on the circumstances. The biggest factor is the distance between you and the bg, and in most self defense situations I imagine it won't be anywhere near enough. It's highly unlikely anybody's going to announce thier intention to mug or rape you from 50 yards away.
 
This whole thing is a problem for me. I'm not alone very often. My wife is with me most of the time. She is NOT athletic...neither am I anymore. We're 55 now and some health issues prevent running(very far or fast) or even getting down for cover,These things really make a person think about where you go, when you go and how you'll deal with trouble. I've got to find a way to try more of this move and shoot stuff and get some kind of moving target idea thats workable. Need to make target shooting more real world. Of coarse the anti's will just say we're practicing killing! I'll be practicing SURVIVING! :D
Mark.
 
Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time and thought!

I'm sorry, but a guy rolling on the ground seems like a much easier target than a guy with a barrel leveled at you.
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I agree.

Remember, the guy that is on the ground is also pointing a gun at you, and has a more stable firing platform.
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that would only lock my arms and slow my response time on a moving target...

Once again...it depends
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That's the point I was trying to make or at least - discuss. Move to/and cover seems to be a dogma in some places. And I consider all dogmas dangerous. For instance in an attack which actually happend to a very close friend of mine, the bad guy stormed the good guys office with a knife, cornered him and stabbed the good guys head until the folding blade's joint broke. Goody guy hardly survived but - recovered. In this situation there would have been any place to run or hide. So focussing on as many good hits as rapidly possible would have been the winning strategy.
However, if you face a gunfight standing right behind the engine-hood of your car, dropping and getting cover behind the engine block makes 100% sense, so...
... it depends, doesn't it?

Remember, you might train to shoot on the move, and shoot accurately, but the bad guys surely aren't.
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Why not? Some bad guys have excellent training.

Keep in mind the 'knife distance' of about 20 yards.
Even if you score multiple CofM hits they are likely close enough to be on you before being incapacitated.
Unless you want to rely on the BGs all just standing there when you open fire (they may, they may flee, and do you want to RELY on this?) you need to move away from the problem.
Dropping and rolling sounds really tactical, until the BG is standing over you before halting the attack. Stay on your feet.
Movement darn well is cover. If you practice shooting at moving targets remember how poorly you did at first. The lead is going the other way now.
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Good post, good points. Everybody: Let's think about the plausible scenarious in which each of you would draw and shoot...
... let's face it: When you are cornered. Either locked in your car, or in a shop or bank or in your office. With no place to run or hide and walls or at least glass everywhere. So I do believe as a rule that drawing and hitting speed is the key for civilian handgun carrying survial.
Beause if we aren't cornered, we will just run away. At least I would.

Stay safe and sound.
 
Moving to cover takes too much time. And they make a point. Drawing and two alhpa-hits on each of 4 (four!) targets in 3 Seconds.
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My question is, if the bad guy is already shooting at you, how many hits can HE get in the seconds your drawing and acquiring? He's already drawn and acquired.

I don't shoot IPSC, but common sense says that if he has me in his sights, its a higher priority to get me out of his sights before stopping to return fire.
 
I don't shoot IPSC, but common sense says that if he has me in his sights, its a higher priority to get me out of his sights before stopping to return fire.
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That's a real world decision you have to make on the fly in a real-world situation. A friend of mine and his partner walked into a McDonalds that was being held-up unbeknownst to them, both in uniform. He walked up to the counter and the bad guy put a gun right to the side of his head and said "Don't pull your sh!t man!" Just after he got to "man", he DID pull his sh!t and shot the guy through the gut with a .357 Super Vel round. The bad guy went down and the good guys were none the worse for wear. Maybe the next guy who put a gun to his head would have blown his brains all over his partner. You can't practice for every eventuality. Sometimes you just have to wing it. If he went for cover, there's a good chance he, or someone other than the bad guy would have been shot.

Then there's another guy I worked with who, when a bad guy pulled a gun while fleeing a burglary, hid behind the city councilwoman who lived at that house and who was standing in the yard. She was a big woman.
 
This is one of those issues that can not be addressed adequately as a hard and fast rule. It depends on a great many things which will only be apparent to the individual at the time and place.

How far away is the nearest cover? What kind of cover is it? Will going there place you in a position where you may be trapped? How many antagonists are there? What are they armed with? How far away are they - or each of them? Etc.

In some circumstances it may be wise to simply drop to the ground prone and then shoot for example.
 
Dave R said,
My question is, if the bad guy is already shooting at you, how many hits can HE get in the seconds your drawing and acquiring? He's already drawn and acquired.

I don't shoot IPSC, but common sense says that if he has me in his sights, its a higher priority to get me out of his sights before stopping to return fire.
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Right. What a lot of gun folks really do not seem to actually understand is that a defensive gunfight (the sort most of us will be in if we are ever in one), the goal is not simply shooting the bad guy, but not letting the bad guy shoot you. Having the shoot end in a draw where neither party is harmed means you get to go home. Sure, the bad guy maybe gets away, but so do you.

What is not understood is that killing the bad guy doesn't necessarily make you the winner. There have been many shootings in recent years where both the bad guy and good guy die. That means the shooting ends in a draw, the bad kind of draw, but since the good guy is dead, what is the point?

While many folks think that the first rule of a gun fight is to have a gun, but in reality the first rule of a gun fight should be to NOT get shot!
 
"While many folks think that the first rule of a gun fight is to have a gun, but in reality the first rule of a gun fight should be to NOT get shot!"

Right. Actually, there's a corollary to that:

And, if it turns out that you are going to get shot anyway, arrange it so that the shot does as little damage as possible.

The first, main point here is survival. It is better to not get shot at all. If you do end up in a situation where it is likely that you will get shot, try to arrange and position yourself so that the subsequent wounds are not as likely to be crippling or life threatening. Make yourself as difficult of a target as you can, and try to arrange yourself so that any hits you do take are at less than advantageous angles as far as the BG is concerned. Actually shooting the bad guy is only a secondary concern. Your own survival is the primary concern.

It does you no good at all if you manage to hit the BG COM, inflicting a fatal wound, if in the process the BG hits you COM, inflicting a fatal wound. I guess that you would have the dying satisfaction of knowing that you took the scumbag with you. Personally, I'd rather avoid the BG's fire if possible. Remember, handguns aren't death rays. Unless you manage to get a CNS hit, the BG will still be able to keep firing, for a few seconds at least. If you are just standing there firing away, the BG is VERY likely to get some hits on you.
 
My question is, if the bad guy is already shooting at you, how many hits can HE get in the seconds your drawing and acquiring? He's already drawn and acquired.
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This is a very good example for an interesting phenomenon I have experienced in many threads here: I can't remember opening the thread with a scenario, where one is at gun point and "in the sights" of a bad guy...

I don't shoot IPSC, but common sense says that if he has me in his sights, its a higher priority to get me out of his sights before stopping to return fire.
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Try it (or IDPA etc). It is great fun and dramatically increseases your skills. I agree with your common sense. If you are in the sights, there is only one thing to do: get out.
But, e.g. if a bad guy just has his handgun in - say - one hand, not really aimed, there might be enough time (1 - 1,5 sec) to draw and hit him first. You can still run after you hit him first and hard...
 
Well, your inital post did say "...return/open fire...". One would correctly infer that one situation that you are addressing is that you are under fire, couldn't they?

The post your quote above says "if the bad guy is shooting at you...".
 
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