Don't get cover (?)

Just out of curiosity, how many of you guys get to practice moving and shooting, whether it's laterally or rushing the bad guys. The second is probably only applicable in tactical situations, but as cwp holders we should be able to move and shoot. I think that most trained pistol shooters, firing on an erratically moving target only get hits about 10-20% of the time. Compound that with an erratically moving target that is going to cover and returning fire... seems like the way to go. I'm just worried that some folks just don't get enough practice moving and shooting because of restrictive range rules. I practice the tactics because I am involved in that kind of work. All cwp owners should be able to punch out 2 or 3 com shots on the move, especially on a stationary target.

A handy way to practice is this... have your target in front of you, probably near you ( most hand gun deaths in sc came around 5 feet), have a buddy call gun/go/move/etc. and do this. 1st step off line of attack, 2nd step draw, 3rd step shoot, then continue moving (each step is actually moving not just steps in a list, typically lateral movement is ideal). When you have hit the target do not drop your weapon, scan the target area and move in prepared to make another shot. This trains you to not drop your guard b/c most shootings (59% according to our state) will happen with multiple attackers. Try and get your draw and shoot down to 1-1 1/2 steps and be accurate.

One last point, when you reach cover shoot immediately, you do not want to be flanked while you're hiding out. You want to make the bad guy run for cover and give yourself a chance to escape.
whew that was a long post... :p
 
Movement is the key to E&E

Very good info on the previous posts.

Lets keep in mind the primary objective: To stay alive.

Its not putting two neat holes in the A section of a cardboard target.

So to answer your question - It Depends.

Situational awareness is the key to survival in any of these "what if" scenarios. So if you are walking around an area look around, asses potential threats and potential cover if necessary.

This does not mean you walk from pillar to wall in everyday life, and not look at the pretty girls who pass by, but know your surroundings.

When the stuff hits the fan, and it is not initiated by you - get out of the area of engagement quickly - IF you can.

If in a scenario where the BG is zeroing in on you, and there is no cover - drop prone and return fire from the ground - most post-firefight analysis reveals that people fire high. So if you are on the ground, you have a better than above average chance of not getting hit.

Last note: Most objects DO NOT STOP or DEFLECT rounds. So standing behind that cube wall may stop the BG from visually sighting you but there is a good chance his rounds will zip right through it and hit you anyway. Lets face it, most civilian office furniture, and objects in the real world are not built to withstand 9mm, .45 rounds zipping through them.
 
Yeah don't forget the very very big difference between concealment and cover, you're looking for cover (read stops or significantly slows bullets). Concealment is next best because most people will not shoot at what they can't see, contrary to hollywood where they will expend five full mags in an ak to shoot you out of the air vents you'll be hiding in. Know the difference and try to see where cover is available as you walk around, don't get paranoid by any means, just know what's around you.
 
"Just out of curiosity, how many of you guys get to practice moving and shooting, whether it's laterally or rushing the bad guys."

Quite honestly, I haven't had the opportunity to do that since I got out of the Army in '78. Come to think of it, I got out in the spring of '78, I don't think we did any live fire exercises that year (thank you, Jima Carter :rolleyes: ), it would have been in '77. I've gotta make due with what I learned way back when, along with just practice firing at the range I shoot at now. Not optimal training at all, but the best I can do under the situation I'm currently in.

"I think that most trained pistol shooters, firing on an erratically moving target only get hits about 10-20% of the time."

In a real combat situation, it is even worse than that. Depending on your point of view, that is -- if you are the shooter or the shootee. I'd say that in an ongoing, real firefight, you can expect less than 10% hits, even if you know what you are doing. An awful lot of rounds get expended in intimidation/covering fire -- just to reverse initiative, force the adversary to cover/concealment, etc.

"I'm just worried that some folks just don't get enough practice moving and shooting because of restrictive range rules."

Roger that. Not that there's anything wrong with shooting at your average ordinary range, but that alone won't give you the skills necessary to survive a firefight.

"All cwp owners should be able to punch out 2 or 3 com shots on the move, especially on a stationary target."

While it would be nice to have that sort of skill level, it isn't really that necessary. What is necessary is having the skill to move and survive until you can get to cover/concealment where you can either return fire effectively or otherwise plan and execute your withdrawl. While it is to your advantage to be able to shoot on the move, it really isn't that necessary that you actually make hits during that movement. Timely shots in the general direction (now, keep in mind that I'm assuming no bystanders, foreground or background) serve just as well -- they interrupt the attacker(s), forcing them to also move which disrupts their aim. Any hits while moving is just a bonus, in other words. It is the movement itself, along with the presence of your return fire (hits or not), that is keeping you alive until you get to cover/concealment.


"I was always taught, . . . and subscribe to a simple tactic: drop. On your stomach, flat, . . . you are one hard target to hit."

Yep -- you got it. That's what we were taught. Don't even think about it -- DROP! Dive, even! ROLL! SHOOT BACK! Don't be predictable! DO be a hard target! Get to cover/concealment. Actually, I'd start rolling to cover even before it is "safer" to do so. The movement involved in rolling makes you a harder target than just being stationary on the ground. Roll -- shoot. Roll -- shoot. Keep moving. Work your way there.
 
Speed kills

Just out of curiosity, how many of you guys get to practice moving and shooting, whether it's laterally or rushing the bad guys.
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I do. But I would hardly ever drop. Dropping takes at least two seconds before you can pull, aim and shoot. So it's 4 seconds until the first hit. Readjusting takes the bad guy much less time, I assume.

If I keep upright, it's 1,5 seconds until my first bullet hits (a-zone). In 95% of the situations I can imagine, I'd go for speed. Speed kills :p
 
Shooting USPSA/IPSC can help improve your gunhandling and marksmanship. It is not tactics.

I've been shooting IPSC & 3Gun for several years, and last weekend took my first real pistol fighting "tactics" class. My background in marksmanship and gunhandling helped because I could concentrate 100% on learning the tactics, not how to aim, press the trigger, and run the gun.
 
If you have time to take cover, take cover. If you don't have time, don't take cover.....



Yep -- you got it. That's what we were taught. Don't even think about it -- DROP! Dive, even! ROLL! SHOOT BACK! Don't be predictable! DO be a hard target! Get to cover/concealment. Actually, I'd start rolling to cover even before it is "safer" to do so. The movement involved in rolling makes you a harder target than just being stationary on the ground. Roll -- shoot. Roll -- shoot. Keep moving. Work your way there.
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Drop on the ground and roll to cover shooting while someone is shooting at you...?? What happens to a round that's fired at about a 30 degree angle to the ground after it hits the ground?
 
Yeah buddy, rabbit rounds are no fun. Unless someone his hiding along a wall or under a car. If that somebody is you, you are in for some bad times.
 
I'm sorry, but a guy rolling on the ground seems like a much easier target than a guy with a barrel leveled at you.

My usuall thought is fire while sidestepping, something that keeps you moving while keeping lead down-range. Of course all situations are different.
 
I'm sorry Para Bellum, . . . you are definitely entitled to your opinion, . . . but I kinda think maybe you need to re-think your position.

I do not know of any military person (and I have literally known hundreds if not thousands of them) who would abide to your thinking. That goes double for my LEO aquaintances also.

Standing put only gets you one thing: dead. Ask any grunt who walked point on any patrol in France, in Germany, in Korea, in VietNam, in Afghanistan, in Kuwait, in Iraq.

The point man is the expert, . . . the one who can honestly say "Been there, done that". Cover, . . . concealment, . . . and firing on the move is the standard order of business when you detect the enemy and even more so when you have been fired upon.

Standing still, . . . even with an M16 on rock and roll, finger on the trigger, 30 round clip, . . . it is no match for a determined enemy 15 feet from you that missed his first round and is sending the followup right now. You are dead meat, . . . just need to cool to room temperature and be sent home in the plastic bag.

Street scenarios are no different from Ticrit, Bagdad, or Kuwait City. The bg wants you dead, . . . just for a different reason.

You all may not have paint ball places over where you call home, . . . but if you do, . . . challenge a friend or two to purposely miss you with the first round or two: try moving and shooting as opposed to standing and shooting. I guarantee if the guy is any kind of paintballer at all, . . . if you don't move, . . . he'll paint you so many times, . . . you'll think you are a 10 year old billboard when he gets done.

Anyway, . . . think about it, . . .

May God bless,
Dwight
 
There are simply too many varitables which effect the answer, range, number of attackers, distance to cover, type of cover, your weapon, hisor their weapons. etc so there can be no one always correct answer.
 
Moving and shooting practice....

Best place and time to do this are competition(s).....I just joined IPSC and many of the shoot scenario(s) are move and shoot. Not to mention shoot from cover etc.

Plus its one of the few places you can engage multiple targets...and other targets with hostages.

A lot of fun too.
 
"I'm sorry, but a guy rolling on the ground seems like a much easier target than a guy with a barrel leveled at you."

Nope. Not even close. Remember, the guy that is on the ground is also pointing a gun at you, and has a more stable firing platform. Look at the frontal area of the target. The guy on the ground is presenting a target about 1/3 to 1/4 the size of the frontal one (or less, depending on build and distance to the enemy), and all shots at the prone guy (except for the head, which is going to be about the same, spine is worse, however.) are going to be at less than optimum angles for the COM. And then there's the perception that if a person is going down, they must be hit, so therefore isn't a threat and doesn't need engaging -- it can buy you an extra split second. Also, remember the "out of sight, out of mind" principle, where if you decrease your visibility you decrease the other's awareness. By dropping below eyesight level, you have become less noticable to the enemy. If you drop below the line of sight, you are obscured by the barrel and the enemy's arms in your enemy's sight picture, he can't see you to shoot, meaning he has to reacquire you in his sights -- it buys you another split second. And then there's the practice factor, in that people practice shooting at targets that would be in a position that is at about standing COM level -- it throws everything off if the target hits the dirt, the angles are no longer what they practiced shooting at -- meaning that all things considered the fire is less effective.

Really -- think about this, folks. Who knows more about this than the military? What does the military teach, and why? Standing up and taking your shots is so, uh, 19th century, and it's a real good way to get yourself killed. Part of the bloody slaughter of WWI was due to orders to just stand up and rush machine guns, instead of low crawling like in WWII. What Dwight55 is saying is correct: "Standing put only gets you one thing: dead."
 
Now I had quite some training with IPSC Shooters who compete on the internatinonal level. They had a good argument: Moving to cover takes too much time. And they make a point. Drawing and two alhpa-hits on each of 4 (four!) targets in 3 Seconds.
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I think that this argument shows a focus on hitting a target as quickly as possible. In other words, the mind set of competitive shooting is at work here.

Life isn't that way. It ain't that simple. The goal in a gunfight is survival, not hitting a target or beating a timer. If you fire no shots and just get the hell out of Dodge, you survived and achieved your goal. If you take 15 seconds to run hide behind a dumpster, and wait for your attacker to round the corner, you survive. If you take your opponent to the ground and stick a J frame in his ribs to get your shot, you survive.

There are three considerations here........
#1 If you are in the open, movement is your only protection from incoming fire. Movement makes your attacker depend more on luck than skill. The quickest way of negating any skill your opponent has is to give him a laterally moving target. Make the movement erratic, and his skill goes down even more.

#2 Empty magazines/cylinders are not a good thing. Shooting wildly while seeking cover will leave you defenseless. Unless you can reliably hit moving targets while on the move, it's preferable to conserve ammo for when you can use it effectively. Let the other guy empty his magazine while trying to get lucky with a wild shot.

#3 Tactics end gunfights, not accuracy, not speed, not XYZ caliber or gun. You can have everything else in your favor and if your tactics fail, you are counting on luck to survive. Note I said tactics end gunfights, not win them.

At least those are my thoughts.

"Just out of curiosity, how many of you guys get to practice moving and shooting, whether it's laterally or rushing the bad guys."
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I do.
 
Frank is right...take cover when available

Running away would be best if that is an option ;)

But it really does depend.......

For instance....bad guy 10 feet in front of you....cover is 20 feet behind you...

Turning your back on the bad guy and running to cover would probably be a bad idea


Moving laterally on the draw and then backing towards cover while firing might be a good idea

Advancing on him while emptying your weapon might be better


Once again...it depends
 
I have also shot IPSC, loved it and definitely improved my gunhandling skills. However, if cover is available, go to cover. Your 1.5 second draw and hit presumes that the BG's actions have created a definte "shoot" situation. While it MAY be appropriate to stand your ground and engage a solo attacker, the move to cover becomes more critical as the number of attackers grows. To stand in place for five seconds to get three "A" zone double taps on three adversaries gives BG#2 on your firing order about three seconds of safe time to target you and BG#4 about four seconds. Accessing cover (if possible) will shield you and limit your exposure to 1 BG at at time as you slice the pie and engage them. The next time you are at a match, watch the shooters on a multiple target stage, place yourself (mentally) in the position of one of the targets and ask yourself: If I were opposing him, could I take him out before he got to me?
 
"Life isn't that way. It ain't that simple. The goal in a gunfight is survival, not hitting a target or beating a timer."

Exactly. The point really isn't engaging targets -- it is survival, and who cares about the timer when there isn't one.

"#1 If you are in the open, movement is your only protection from incoming fire. Movement makes your attacker depend more on luck than skill. The quickest way of negating any skill your opponent has is to give him a laterally moving target. Make the movement erratic, and his skill goes down even more."

Good point, but in practice it turns out that movement towards the ground is better at the onset than lateral movement. Not that lateral movement is bad, because it isn't. But a fast move downward is better. Both is better yet. That's the point of drop and roll, or dive (moves down and elsewhere simultaneously). If you are just moving laterally, you are still presenting a relatively large frontal target, and you haven't removed yourself from line of sight. Also remember: While you are drawing, movement is your ONLY defense, at least for us civilian types without any sort of armor.

"#2 Empty magazines/cylinders are not a good thing. Shooting wildly while seeking cover will leave you defenseless. Unless you can reliably hit moving targets while on the move, it's preferable to conserve ammo for when you can use it effectively. Let the other guy empty his magazine while trying to get lucky with a wild shot."

Yes and no. It is quite true that an empty cylinder/magazine isn't going to do you any good, especially if you don't have a ready reload. But let's not forget the psychological effect of return fire, even if not aimed. Not so much as to empty the cylinder/mag, just a couple of shots will do. It reverses initiative, making the enemy react to your fire thus disrupting his. It is quite possible to both supply suppressive fire while at the same time conserving ammo, the military does this sort of thing all the time. I mean, look at what I've got -- 7 in the mag, 1 in the chamber, 1 extra mag of 7. I can afford to snap shoot a couple of times to reverse initiative, leaving me 6 in the gun and an extra 7 (for after cover is attained) -- plenty enough to disrupt an attack and allow me to survive long enough to reach cover if available, and then provide covering fire for my withdrawl. That's really all I care about. Actual hits on the enemy aren't really what matters here -- survival is. I'm not a LEO nor a soldier, my purpose is just survival in nature, not offensive. To all of you competition shooters: Ok, you are fast, but how fast and accurate are you going to be while there's incoming? It matters, it'll throw you off.

"#3 Tactics end gunfights, not accuracy, not speed, not XYZ caliber or gun. You can have everything else in your favor and if your tactics fail, you are counting on luck to survive. Note I said tactics end gunfights, not win them."

Quite right. Actually, speed does matter. But not speed on the draw, or even how fast you can double tap. What I'm talking about is reaction time between when you recognize a threat until you can get to cover, concealment or at least on the ground, moving. You have to move FAST. The faster, the better. The less time exposed, the greater your survival chances. Whatever you do, DON'T remain stationary, unless you already have cover. Even then, you need to move. As far as winning gunfights, I'd consider any gunfight you survive as one you have won. Survival is the key. It is sorta like the old saying amongst aviators: "Any landing you walk away from is a good landing."
 
gb,
You make good points. Allow me to state my case.

The reason I say move laterally is that it is easier and quicker to move to cover on your feet and return fire while running than it is to roll to cover and return fire while rolling. Of course, this all situational, and depends a great deal on how close cover is.

The argument for suppressive fire is merited, but I see it as a risky prospect if your enemy decides to follow you anyway, and you have a limited amount of ammo. I carry 7+1 and a spare magazine or at other times 5 plus a speedloader. Your argument to get off a couple of shots to change the initiative has a lot of merit though. That is why I train to shoot while moving. I want those shots to be as accurate as possible. My argument is against shooting wildly, which opens up a whole 'nuther can 'o worms. ;)
 
XavierBreath:

About lateral movement to cover vs drop & roll to cover: I'd say that if you can dash or dive to cover before he has time to get off another shot (assuming he has already shot), I'd agree with you. So, if cover is close, a direct lateral move to it may be advisable. If not, if the adversary may have time to get a shot off before you reach cover, then I'd advise the drop and roll. By doing so you are minimizing yourself as a target while you are in the open, since you are going to be in the open anyway. Given the choice of presenting a large target vs a smaller one, I'll go the smaller target route.
 
Movement is cover.

Sure, you can stand there and hope that you get a round in each of the targets, but what if you don't? What if that last target has enough time to put just one round downrange at your position?

Moving off of the line of attack, even if there is no hard cover or concealment within twenty paces, is far better than standing still and trading shots with the bad guys.

Remember, you might train to shoot on the move, and shoot accurately, but the bad guys surely aren't. Therein lies your advantage.
 
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