Dog Threat? How to Handle? Laws?

Greg has a good point.

Many dogs that approach threatingly, bluff or serious attack, will respond to a loud and commanding voice (particularly poorly trained dogs).

Certainly, as a grown-up human being, I have other recourse before turning to firing on the dog (if I judge I have the time).

Best,

Will
 
psyfly....

How many gun owners in this thread, who have advocated shooting the dog, have offered any other alternatives to doing so? By my rough count, less than half. (I suspect a lot less than half, honestly, and think that's the trend in most dog threads.)

So, while you might find my comment condescending or insulting, can you not see why I might see things that way?

I'm about as pro-gun as you will find. I choose what states I'll live in based, in large part, on their firearms laws. Most of my friends are shooters, and CCW types.

But most of my friends don't look at the gun as their first response to possible threats. If you look at the dog threads that open on TFL, you'll see that very regularly, you get a high percentage of folk who advocate shooting the charging dog. You'll get a few who will suggest spray.

Once, there was a guy who said he was considering tasering an aggressive dog, through its chain-link fence, because he thought some day the dog might try to come over the fence at him. So, while he wasn't advocating shooting, quite, he wasn't helping things.

If you take issue with my stance, psyfly, explain what part you find condescending or insulting.

And if it turns out that you have more tools in your kit than just a gun, then you probably aren't one of the folks I was referring to. (And yes, using command presence on a dog qualifies as another tool. But aside from you, and GreginATL - who actually used non-threat, neutral body language - who has advocated that?)
 
The State of Michigan's opinion....

http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/d_ccwfaq.asp


Under Michigan law, any use of a firearm is an application of deadly force. Deadly force is legally permissible when it is proportional to the threat. Meaning, that deadly force may be used to prevent death, great bodily harm that could lead to death, or rape. It is entirely possible that an animal could do great bodily harm that could lead to death. So, it is possible that the use of a pistol against an attacking dog would be a justifiable use of force. Keep in mind that the circumstances would have to be such that you are in a place where you have a legal right to be, and that there is sufficient indication that your life is in danger when you fire. If you were to fire when the dog is too far away, or running away, or if you hit something other than the dog, or the dog is a toy poodle, you might face serious legal consequences. The key is that any use of force must be reasonable under the circumstances. I admire your restraint and think that the policy of not using our pistols unless we absolutely have to is the wise course of action.

While the answer contains statements of law and practical advice that are essentially correct, it is worth noting that dogs are covered by different laws than human beings. Under Michigan law, a dog is an item of personal property.

There is a statute in Michigan which states that "Any person...may kill any dog which he sees in the act of pursuing, worrying, or wounding any livestock or poultry or attacking persons, and there shall be no liability on such person in damages or otherwise, for such killing."

However, there is another statute which states that "willfully and maliciously killing or injuring animals" is a felony punishable by up to 4 years in prison.

The practical advice given last week remains unchanged. Only use your pistol if you have to. If you or someone else is in danger of attack by an animal, use your pistol or other firearm to defend yourself and your loved ones.
 
MLeake:

First, I do credit you with good intentions, so don't read personal condemnation in my own inference that what you were writing meant that gun carriers, in general, see everything as a target.

I've been carrying a gun since I was about 13 (don't ask) and I have never shot anyone with my ccw (nor anyone's dog). I live in the country mostly and I have shot my share of dogs that I deemed to be dangerous and some that I knew to be dangeous, and always with a long gun and never for sport.

My ccw is my last line of defense, not my first.

My main point is that many dog owners are overly defensive when their dogs exhibit poor training and aggressive behavior and, sometimes, seem to imply that their dog's life and health are more important than mine.

Best,

Will
 
Threads like these make me aware of how much nicer it is living out of the city. We got no sidewalk, we got open fields, we got barns and out buildings where a dog can hide. We also got a law says control your animal or pay a price.

If a person is walking down the sidewalk and the dog attacks but the invisible fence stops him a person can call 911 and register a complaint about the aggressive dog and that owner will get a ticket and court date, in Omaha this will happen. A dog shouldnt attack a person just for walking down the sidewalk, a good owner will train his pet.

I got 6 dogs, come to my place and you will get licked to death, until I give the command, then you best be someplace else. A dog goes off all the time is like a gun goes off all the time.... worthless in a SD event.
 
Well maybe one lesson is that invisible fencing isn't a great idea if you own a large, agressive dog. I'm not comfortable with it because it won't prevent another dog from entering your property and if you loose power the fence is useless.
Click to expand...

Takes mine about 5 or 6 days till they figure it out that the electicity is off, they are dogs, not so smart as we are. :)

Another dog comes into the place, he leaves real quick or my dogs take him to ground.
 
Dogs bark, and approach to warn off and identify potential intruders or strangers.

That's not an "attack".

Where I grew up, it was normal; of course, back then a lot of people had their dogs on runs or leads out in the yard. Quite a few would run full tilt to the end of their lead, and get jerked back.

Oddly enough, I don't recall any citations, or public outcries; I also don't recall any actual attacks on my street.

Of course, we also didn't wear helmets on our bikes, or have people advocate putting 8 year old's in child car seats; we rode in the backs of pick-up trucks; we tried to make home-made firecrackers.... and just about every kid had a pocket-knife at school.
 
Let's look at some facts. There are about 30 fatal dog attacks each year in the US and the number one breed is pit bulls, Rotweillers are second with German Shepherds right up there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

If I am confronted out doors with a threatening pit bull, or other large dog, I am going to assume the worst, especially if I am with family. These are very aggressive animals that fear no one and do not back down to usual threats you can use against other dogs. You don't have to wait to get stabbed to be in fear of your life and in imminent danger of grave bodily harm or death to shoot in self defense. Likewise, are you really going to wait until you have one of these viscious dogs chomping on you. It could get out of hand quickly with them knocking you down and going for the throat.

In addition, not only do you have to worry about bite itself, it is the infection that always follows that could be the deadly part of the encounter. I am a physician and I took care of a man who was bit and scratched by his cat that had been shot in the eye with a BB by his neighbor. His arm was swollen to twice the size with scratch marks along his entire forearm. He had two bite marks on his thigh which was likewise markedly swollen. Bottom line, he would have been at high risk of death without the IV antibiotics that I gave him.

Please consider this when considering dog attacks. It is not just the bite that causes problems, it is what follows as well. That in my opinion qualifies as danger of death or grave bodily injury even from small dogs especially if people have underlying medical conditions.

The biggest issue is if the attack occurs within city limits where fire arm firing is prohibited. We had a dog attack in our neighborhood a couple of months ago where a large boxer attacked a woman walking. Actually there were three loose dogs in this attack including a Rotty mix. Fortunately, they picked on the wrong lady, she was walking her two pit bulls. A couple of weeks later, another couple walking their dog had to jump into a neighbors SUV to escape the same pack of three dogs loose once again. We had little help from the city and it is Kommifornia so the issue of even having self defense available makes it a sad situation.

The community service officer that is part of our neighborhood watch simply said call 911. Essentially all viable self defense methods against a dog attack ARE illegal here in LA county. I will be happy to be back in Idaho soon and escape to a land that recognizes self defense, especially against large dogs.
 
Alaska444... even in California, a cane or walking stick is probably not going to draw undue attention.

Pepper spray might or might not be an option.

For dogs, specifically, there are high frequency whistles that I'm pretty sure won't be banned anywhere in the US.

At the risk of sounding condescending... it seems like you are only looking at one means of defense, which has its downsides (both legal and practical). More options is generally a good thing.

Also, looking at your facts: 30 fatal attacks per year is bad. But it's also no higher than shark attack numbers. Do you take powerheads to the beach? The odds of a fatal dog attack are lower than lightning or tornado fatalities. (Very different from armed robbery, rape, aggravated assault, and homicide numbers.)
 
Dear MLeake,

Sorry, but you truly have me pegged incorrectly. Just as in my personal home defense, I have layers of defense, so likewise is my own take on dog protection as well. I ALWAYS carry a stout walking stick when out doors walking even when I am in Idaho where I ALWAYS carry at all times as well. Multiple options including knowing your surroundings is all part of the self defense package as well as avoiding situations in the first place.

Thank you for your suggestions anyway, but truly not necessary. Way ahead of you on those issues.

Back to dog attacks, they do happen, they are quite common although fatal attacks are fortunately rare, shooting a dog in self defense in an urban setting will likely always be problematic with all of the no shoot ordinances no matter what city or state it occurs, but if pressed to the point of no choice, I will choose to protect myself, and my family and get a call to my lawyer pronto. Understanding the rules and regulations of where you live is essential. I hope I never need to use deadly force against a dog or other creature for that matter, but I will and am prepared as best I can depending on where I am at the moment.

Likewise, when out in the woods hunting in Idaho, I have my .444 Marlin lever gun over one shoulder or my .300 WSM Browning BLR depending on what the agenda is for the day, my constant carry SP101 pocket carry and my .44 magnum in cross carry bandolier style. Am I paranoid? a bit, but how far is paranoia separated from simply being prepared for all situations.

Same answer with simply taking a walk down the street. With the popularity of pit bulls in every other house it seems, is that really being paranoid to want something that will stop those beasts? Not in my mind. I have heard too many stories of what those creatures can do to a person that I don't want to find out first hand for myself. Pepper spray is not an effective deterrent against many of these large dogs nor is a silent whistle something that I would rely upon. Any dog that would bite me is a dog that has the potential to easily kill a small child especially those breeds I mentioned above.

I have had two near dog attacks in my life, one with a Rottwieler, one with a German Shepherd. Fortunately, someone came along and scared the first one off with his car, and the second one I had a 2X4 right at my feet when he charged which proved very useful at the moment. I suspect there are a whole lot of folks on this forum who can tell of their dog encounters. So, just be prepared with what you have legally available to you in your place of residence which does indeed include the legal right to carry if it is available to you. By the way, bear pepper spray is not legal other than for bears, mace is not likely enough for a pit bull.
 
First thing, using an authoritative NO, NO, NO act to stop the DOG because they are conditioned to listen to the A Dog. (does that mean Alpha or Authoritative or both?)
Second thing, observe and react. If biting starts: try it again moving close with defense in hand.
Obviously avert serious injury or death of the human, the other person or you.
 
Premeditation

Just a note here. Several people have mentioned dogs in their neighborhood that they consider threats. That is in this thread and other similar ones. Among those people some have considered the use of deadly force.

Last week at one of the dog parks we go to I met a fellow that claimed that he and his dog had been attacked on three different occasions by a particular animal. This gentleman said that he had warned to owner that if the attacking dog were not controlled in the future he would "end it". The gentleman made clear that he meant to use a firearm.

So the question is, if you know there is the potential for a dog attack, do you have the responsibility to arm yourself with non-lethal means of defense?
After all a stun gun or dog spray will effectively stop a dog attack. More importantly pepper spray is safer to use in a place that might have many people and other animals.
Back to the gentleman, I suggested dog spray and then reminded him of the 4 rules, including being sure of what was behind your target. He was dismissive of both suggestions.

I'd also add that in the year that we've been going to dog parks I've seen several instances that were described as "attacks", which imho were either dominance displays or over enthusiastic play.
 
I guess I am a little surprised that there is any doubt. The use of deadly force is permitted on humans if there is fear of death or great bodily harm.

Dogs can inflict both, and so if one is charging or attacking me or someone else I would not hesitate to shoot it if I could do so safely.

Once I get the dog neutralized I'll deal with the owner if he wants to extract vengeance then or later. If I fear for my life or great bodily harm I do not have time to worry about consequences when a dog is attacking me.

Regards,
Jerry
 
As I have been reading these discussions a few things are becoming clear. I am confident in my ability to judge if a dog is actually attacking or playing. You can actually tell how a dog's mood is by their bark. This is biological in humans(they have done studies). Of course this is EASIER for those of us who were raised around dogs(my dad is a vet and I have never had less than 5 dogs until I moved off to college[now]).

There is a point of which a dog can get "out of hand" in play mode. That does NOT warrant shooting the dog. Of course I am a full grown man who has a nasty hammerfist that words VERY well if used on a dog's nose. Now what should we as dog owners do knowing that some people are afraid of dogs? We should train them to understand someone standing fully upright is NOT playing. Dog's understand humans. They have been bred to do that. These kinds of cues are VERY easily taught. I suggest teaching them to your dog.

If you are AFRAID of dogs and you are not comfortable judging their attack vs play mode then I suggest you check out a local dog park from a safe distance(maybe in your car). Watch for signals like their hackles being raised OR their ears lowering. I also suggest you understand dog breeds. LITTLE dogs even if they ARE in attack mode...I mean I can punt a minpin or jack russel if I am worried it is going to maul me. It might be a little different with a 40lb dog who is dead set on taking my throat out. A hammerfist isn't going to cut it. IF you carry pepper spray that is also very effective. IF you carry a taser...well my father being a vet was called out to the interstate one time because cows had gotten loose and the police had it cornered and were going to have to shoot it(couldnt catch it), but someone had an idea and actually dropped a cow with a taser. It works.

I guess short version 1)Train your dogs(for those who have them) 2)Learn dog behavior. 3)Understand the threat from big vs little dogs. 4)If you are in a situation where a dog is a threat or in the process there are ways you can act BEFORE lethal force(aggresive dominant behavior). I have clubbed my share of dogs(THREATENING dogs...but I was young).
 
There's another thread going on about LEO training. A poster (TerryA, I believe) posted that an upside of more extensive training was that it bred competence, and from that competence came confidence, which helped with command presence and often served to make BG's think twice before starting anything. IE, better training leads to fewer confrontations, and those confrontations that do occur normally end in happier results for the good guys.

It's the same with dogs. More exposure and interaction with them provide higher comfort levels; comfort levels build confidence; dogs (like women - okay, men, too but women tend to rank it higher in surveys) respect confidence.

Learn to be an Alpha without getting out of control, and most dog problems will get resolved without need of ANY weapon.

There will always be that very small percentage that actually are truly aggressive. They are a different story, but again more exposure will help you to better recognize the dogs that really are threats.
 
if the dog isn't attacking me i really don't want to get charged with a firearms violation.

it's kinda like playing rambo in the recent tucson shooting, should i take a chance on a headshot at 25yds, when i'm not involved or leave it for le.
 
The most fearless, loathsome, dangerous, nastiest dog I've every encountered was Brownie - my grandmother's Miniature Mexican Chihuahua. Didn't have to shoot him, just booted him across the room. After that he didn't bother me.
 
I was checking gas meters in a very bad part of town full of pitbulls, not being allowed to ccw I took to wearing a large can of bear mace, I never had to use it but felt comfort knowing I had it. Also, you said you were driving, instead of shooting the dog, why not swerve at it?
 
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