Dog Threat? How to Handle? Laws?

The person is on public property...

... but in the examples given so far, the dogs haven't left private property.

So, yes, I'd press charges, and I'd sue.

Quite frankly, I've seen more people abuse dogs, than I've seen dogs abuse people. I remember one neighbor whose dog used to get sticks poked at it through the fence, or rocks thrown at it, by some brat kids in the 8-11 year old range. Funny thing, that dog got loose one day, and the kids' parents wanted to sue when the dog chased a couple of them home.

Can a dog hurt a person? Certainly.

Will most dogs do so? No.

Are there people out there who can't tell the difference? Yes.

But there are people out there who are scared to death of minorities and teenagers, too. Granted, those are humans, not dogs, but you don't see anybody here saying "if in doubt, blast away, those teenagers can hurt you if you give them an instant."

And while I wouldn't advocate violence, I can say that as a juror I'd be tempted to jury nullify if somebody beat the crap out of somebody who harmed their dog, on their property.
 
And FWIW, my former neighbor's big (100lb class) chocolate lab would routinely rush to the electric underground fence line, barking and snarling. He never crossed it. I never drew a gun on him. I'll admit, the first time he did it, I considered it.

But it wasn't necessary.

Seems like a lot of posters on here would have shot my neighbor's dog.
 
here is the definition of assault in my state:
Definition of Assault - Texas Penal Code


Trackbacks § 22.01. ASSAULT.

(a) A person commits an offense if the person:

(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another, including the person's spouse;

(2) intentionally or knowingly threatens another with imminent bodily injury, including the person's spouse; or (3) intentionally or knowingly causes physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other will regard the contact as offensive or provocative.


Now, I love dogs. If dogs approach me in a friendly manner, they will get a good pet job (if the owners don't mind), because I know what they like. Now the law refers to people, I have not heard of a case anywhere near me where a person had any problem defending himself against a dog, but lots where dog owners were in trouble due to an attacking or threatening dog. Just saying that if someones on public property, they shouldn't have to worry about a dog attack.
 
Also seems like those nervous types would be better served carrying a spray, or a walking stick.

The spray may annoy the dog's owner, but not nearly so badly. Also, as somebody else posted, if you are trying to get a dog off an actual victim, the spray is less likely to hurt the person. You also don't have to worry about where your bullets go, with regard to the neighborhood.

With the stick, there's no doubt the dog closed on you. And again collateral damage potential is minimized.

One problem some forum members have: The only tool they have is their gun, so every problem looks like a target.
 
Well maybe one lesson is that invisible fencing isn't a great idea if you own a large, agressive dog. I'm not comfortable with it because it won't prevent another dog from entering your property and if you loose power the fence is useless.

I can't imagine shooting a dog unless I was on my own property, and only then if the dog won't back down. I'd much rather pet it and take it home. I shared my story because it made me realize that in driving an aggressive dog off my property I'd just created a big threat to my neighbors.
 
Double Bogey, again, if the dog is on public property, that's a separate issue from the dog being in its own yard. You want to mix the two.

I understand that part of the problem is the dog's speed. Even so, if the dog never leaves its yard, you still have a potential problem.

(Please note, my dogs are very people-friendly, and even if they are in the wireless fence area, we are well off the beaten path - frankly, if somebody gets to where they can be bitten, they are already on my property... nice thing about being on lots of acres, a 180ft diameter circle is still easily contained.)

I've lived in several neighborhoods where there were dogs who appeared quite menacing. My best friend lives next to a big, loud Mastiff - the dog is actually kind of afraid of people, but he puts on a good show. Every so often, he breaks his chain. We've caught him, but it took some doing. He's one of those that runs up to about six feet away, then barks, but won't get closer - and he tries not to let you close on him, either.

Another neighbor had a 125lb German Shepherd, that was trained not to leave the yard, ever. We'd play frisbee; if the frisbee left the yard, the dog would stop and wait for one of us to go get it. Same with his ball.

And of course the other neighbor had the underground fence setup.

Like I said, there are some people who post here who (one gets the impression) would shoot first and think later. After all, 1) it's only a dog; 2) only a fool thinks he can read a dog well enough to know if it's safe; 3) the dog can close very fast, and really hurt you. All those arguments have been made in this and other threads.

When I mention that I've caught escaped Mastiffs, pits, Rotts, etc, people just tell me I'm either lucky or stupid. But most of those dogs aren't actually mean; often as not they are just lost.

One friend of mine lost her son's dog, briefly, because when she was walking him, he spooked at a car passing. She was on ice, lost her balance, and broke her arm. Dog ran off.

I had a dog get lost because airline baggage handlers dropped her crate, while loading onto a 767. It broke open, she bolted. (Rott mix) She ended up with 3rd degree burns on all four paws, from the hot tar on the ramp. Airline paid some vet bills on that one...

Point there being, not every dog running around out there is doing so because of bad or irresponsible owners.

Now, in a theoretical case where an elderly person was truly terrified and shot a dog, would I go for their financial or legal throat? Most likely, no. OTOH, if the person did any chest-thumping, said "it's only a dog," or any of that, now we're going to have an interesting time.

So... my biggest concern, and the reason I get so fired up, is that I get a strong feel from some posters that they are just looking for an excuse to shoot something. And they don't like dogs.

I don't like those people.
 
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Mainah, I've got a battery backup system. And, as noted, we are on a small horse farm, and the wireless area is not near the road.

I'm not a huge fan of wireless or invisible near sidewalks, either. I'm just pointing out that there are others who do have them.

As far as catching strays, I probably catch one or two a year. A couple stayed with me for a day or a week, until owners could be located. Others, we took to the vet, got microchip data, and brought to the owners. Still others had info on their tags, so owners were found that way. One was a neighbor's dog. Hadn't met those neighbors yet, but had seen the dog at their place, so that was easy enough. One, we ended up keeping. (Found the owner, but the owner didn't want her.)

I've had a dog get loose on occasion, tunneling under or climbing over fences. Like I said, though, my dogs are all people-friendly. On those occasions, people have caught the dog, read the tag, and called my phone (number on the tag).
 
Dr. Strang love wrote "...If you're armed, then you owe it to the public to behave in a responsible manner. A wiener dog nipping at your heels doesn't deserve a bullet, ..." Amen I have a 14 yr old dauchshound, he is blind now and a few months ago he bit the maintainence man while I was working. The guy just left he did not even kick at the dog. I appologized to him and thanked him for being so kind to Nathan, for not kicking him, he laughed and said 'well I was never in any real danger and I ain't kickin no little dog'
 
MLeake, okay, but replace the dog in my above scenario with a human. Say the human was on his own property, I’m legally walking down the sidewalk in front of his house. He starts running at me with a knife, screaming and yelling at me as he approaches. Running directly at me, making eye contact with me.

If I was carrying, he would be a dead man.

Then I still could get sued?

Same thing with a dog. Replace human’s knife with dog’s teeth.

Either animal is going to die. Or should I never get a CCW if they do become available in Illinois?

Added: The time from a dog on it's own property at a full run, to the time it gets me two feet away on the sidewalk, is not enough time for the "on his property / on public property" reasoning.
 
Mike38, that will depend on if there will be a duty to retreat in Illinois, once they get their handgun issues resolved by the courts.

In your scenario, do you try to evade the guy first, or do you just draw and shoot?

Me, personally, I'd try to get a barrier between us, say a parked car, a mailbox, whatever. Then again, that has less to do with legal issues and more to do with awareness that handgun rounds aren't magic stoppers.

But dogs are known to have a very high percentage of bluff charges. Crazy people with knives, not so much. In most cases, I don't assume the dog actually intends to bite. And from experience, and reading the experiences of others, it's normally not the barking dogs that bite.

Added: If the dog starts out only two feet from the sidewalk, and you aren't aware of it, then your situational awareness sucks.

Or, if you simply mean you'd be only two feet off the property line, how far away are you assuming the dog starts out for your scenario? And what other steps might you take aside from shooting?
 
Mleake, we are talking about 2 different scenarios. In my neighborhood the houses are 30' from the sidewalk. No fences in the front. Dog running at you doesn't have far to go. Dogs are not allowed to chase people off the sidewalk. If the dog is behind a fence, I don't care what he does. If he is loose thats completely different. And it's kind of a touchy subject for me as my neighborhood has gone downhill in recent history. I own land in the country, but have been unable to get it built on, so I envy your situation.

I'm not sure how it would work with a dog, but if a self defense shooting isn't prosecuted, in my state (ruled a good shoot), I am protected from lawsuits. And I am not required to retreat, and allowed to protect myself and others.
 
The thread is titled "Dog Threat?" not "When can I shoot a dog?". Threat is in the eye of the receiver. If your dog is taking a run at me, it's up to me to evaluate the level of threat: I don't know your dog. I have enough experience to be somewhat confident I can tell the difference between a bluff and an attack. My 9 y/o granddaughter; not so much. She will run. I will not attempt to shoot a dog, large or small, that doesn't present a threat. However, the larger the dog, the more severe are the consequences of misjudging a dog's intention.

I love dogs. I have lived with many over the years. I don't have one now because my circumstances don't allow me to properly care for it. But I have also put two of them down because they became unpredictable. I think it is difficult for some people to believe that their well-loved pet can be dangerous.

But they can.
 
psyfly, yes they can.

But some people can also be inordinately stupid.

Example: I used to frequent an off-leash park in Florida. The vast majority of people there were familiar with, and comfortable with, dogs of all sizes. Every so often you'd get somebody there who didn't like the fact that it was an off-leash park, would complain bitterly, and demand that people keep their dogs away from them.

Now, within 5 miles of that park there are at least 8 parks that are not off-leash. So why would people who were not dog-friendly go there in the first place?

In another case, a father brought a toddler daughter there, to get her more accustomed to dogs. Great in theory; in practice, when the girl initiated a game of chase with one dog, and then panicked and started shrieking, the father kicked the dog like a football.

Why did he let his toddler approach an unknown dog? Why didn't the father pick up the kid and let the dog owner deal with the dog? Note: the dog was definitely in play mode, not attack mode, and the kid had initiated.

In yet another case, an older man (new retiree, apparently) was playing fetch with his retriever, and got violent when other dogs started trying to go after the ball, then play rough with the retriever. One of the dogs was a pit bull, but it had been playing just fine with the other dogs in the group. At no point was the retriever under attack. But the old man started swinging his tennis ball launcher at the other dogs, and actually hit the pit bull with it.

At which point, as a friend of the pit's owner, I advised the man that if he wanted to go to an off-leash park, he should expect interactions. If he wanted solo time, he should take his own dog to a more secluded area. And if he hit my friend's dog again, I'd take his toy and hit him with it. (He was lucky my friend, a woman in her early 30's, didn't just beat him then and there... she came very close.)

Every so often, a dog would create an actual problem. Most of the time, the owners were on it before much could happen, but there were some irresponsible owners. The rest of us would encourage them to either take some obedience classes, or not continue coming to the park.

As far as my dogs go, I have grown so accustomed to people letting their small kids approach strange dogs - in fact, to letting them pull tails or try to ride the bigger dogs - that every dog I own gets subjected to lots of ear, nose, and tail pulling by me. I stick my hands in their mouths, and drag them around by their lower jaws. I poke them between the eyes. I play tug-o-war with their tails. I take food out of their mouths (except for the Jack Russell; she hasn't ever learned not to bite down in that scenario).

Point is, my dogs are conditioned to look at all that as play, so when some idiot parent lets their toddler approach my dogs without permission, no harm should come to the kids. They might get knocked down, or possibly toenail raked, when the dogs play with them, but they won't get bitten.

Again, I see far more people who threaten or harm dogs, than I see dogs who try to harm people (at least, without pretty serious provocation).
 
When talking about a animal attack, each attack is unique. I am not going to say that I would never shoot a dog who I felt was attacking me. I will say that a firearm would be my last choice to defend against (1) animal. With me it would really depend on what I have on me, where I am and the specific animal.

I live in the rural South and there are lots of farm dogs. Some are noise makers and some are dangerous to a person afoot. Animal services are very helpful in dealing with vicious animals or animals that wander. I do not always carry a firearm but 99.9 percent of the time, I will have a quality OC spray or a nice stick.

In over 40 years I have been bitten once by a very unlikely attack dog (collie). I do agree that I should not have to deal with dangerous animals at large, but I could have avoided this attack if I had taken the dogs warning actions seriously. Since that time, I have carried whatever type of defensive irritant that the times/technology offers.

like I said, each attack is unique. I do not fault anyone who uses a firearm lawfully to defend themselves. Whatever your plan, take care and good luck.
 
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MLeake:

Without a doubt, owners are more trouble (usually) than the dogs.

But, again, people forget that dogs (especially dogs that are considered part of the family) can be dangerous.

I have been personal witness to two events, and can find many more on the interweb, in which trusted-for-years pet has attacked family members.

Dogs don't process information in the same manner people do. That's easy to forget. Too many people treat their dogs (and expect them to act like) "little people". They're not.

Best,

Will
 
My two Scotties are more apt to beat a visitor/treaspasser to death by wagging their tails so hard and licking their "new Friend", than any bites that might occur !







They bark and sound fierce, until the visitor/stranger gets fairly close, then they shift into the greeting mode ! After about 5 minutes of greeting sniffs and petting and mumbling 'hello's", they sit or lay down to watch the humans interact.

Now, If it is not a human... all bets are off. Deer or turkeys in the yard get them moving on those short legs..and Possum, Raccoons and other critters are attack victims if they stay long enough to get caught.

We yell and throw things at unwelcome visitor dogs, to prevent ours from joining the neighborhood wanderers. If a strange dog appears, we do isolate our dogs and watch the intruder for any signs of bad behavior. I would not hesitate to shoot a militant dog that invades our property. it hasn't happened here in Indiana but did in SoCal and a swinging rake didn't detter the invader at all..so the snubby is kept loaded and available if we ever get another of that type of visitor.
 

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Mike38 said:
MLeake, okay, but replace the dog in my above scenario with a human. Say the human was on his own property, I’m legally walking down the sidewalk in front of his house. He starts running at me with a knife, screaming and yelling at me as he approaches. Running directly at me, making eye contact with me.

If I was carrying, he would be a dead man.
Click to expand...


I don't see the parallel. If a person was approaching with a knife, you could warn them your armed and prepared to defend yourself and that might stop them. You couldn't do that with a dog.
 
I realize dog bites can be very bad news. One of the worst bite injuries I've seen didn't even actually result from a bite. An Italian greyhound ran full-tilt, while looking the other way, into an English bulldog. The greyhound just about gutted itself on one of the bulldog's protruding lower fangs. Ripped probably an 8" tear in it's side, from ribs to hip.

Luckily, the greyhound's owners saw the collision. The bulldog never bit, and in fact almost got knocked out by the impact.

(I say luckily, because they weren't at all angry with the bulldog or its owner, and all focus was on getting to the vet immediately.)

Most of the people I've seen get bitten fell into one of two categories:

1) Owners, who lost control of their own dogs, and then ineffectually tried to grab them; and
2) People who really had it coming.

I know there are many legitimate victims every year; I just haven't personally seen one (human, anyway; my friend's Schnauzer got mauled and nearly killed in a very short attack by a Chow). Then again, I've never witnessed a murder, but I know they happen.

I won't argue that dogs can't do serious damage. I will argue that a gun should not be the first line of defense against a dog, in the vast majority of cases. This is partly due to the possibility of bluff charges and misunderstandings; partly due to the fact that many people might actually wait too long if their only recourse is lethal force; and partly due to the fact that those bullets which don't hit their target, along with those which hit but overpenetrate, are going somewhere.

So, if I were really worried about a dog threat, I'd add some tools to the kit. Spray, whistles, a walking stick, even a stun gun leap to mind. And, of course, the gun.

But like I said earlier, when all you have is a gun, all problems start to look like targets.
 
I almost had an encounter a few years ago with a couple of neighbors Rotweilers that had gotten loose. I think the owners let them out on purpose thinking there wouldn't be anyone out late at night. I was out for a jog one night about 10pm when these 2 Rotweilers started running toward me. I didn't own a gun at the time. I decided to increase my foot speed and then I realized I wasn't going to outrun them and would probably get mauled. So, I stopped dead in my tracks and just stood there without moving an inch. The 2 dogs stopped too and we had a stare down for about 10 minutes. Finally, the dog's short attention span got the better of them and they took off. The frustrating part was, I was trying to wave down passing cars so I could get someone to help me by going to the dog owners house (I knew where the dogs lived) and everybody just waved back at me as the drove past.
 
MLeake:

But like I said earlier, when all you have is a gun, all problems start to look like targets.
Click to expand...

Please consider the possibility that many of us gun owners and users find a comment like that condescending and at least a little insulting.

Best,

Will
 
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