I wonder where those "...Many handgun owners/armed professionals...", get the data and how much data from ME(medical examiner) or autopsy..." If such is available in significant quantities to use it as a factor in handgun bullet effectiveness I. and I am sure many others here would like to see it.
Does Velocity Offer Advantage?
- Thread starter Proud Poppa
- Start date
Colorado Redneck
New member
44 caliber velocity vs energy
200 gr XTP @ 1100 fps= 542 ft. lb of energy at the muzzle
200 gr. XTP @ 1300 fps = 760 ft. lb of energy
The energy difference is significant. Granted, not as much difference by a LOT compared with a 200 gr bullet from a rifle at 3000 fps. However, that is useless trivia as this thread is about handgun ballistics.
A UMC +P 125 gr. 38 special round:
•Muzzle Velocity: 945 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 248 ft. lbs.
A UMC 125 gr. 38 special round
•Muzzle Velocity: 800 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 185 ft. lbs
So which one would YOU choose?
200 gr XTP @ 1100 fps= 542 ft. lb of energy at the muzzle
200 gr. XTP @ 1300 fps = 760 ft. lb of energy
The energy difference is significant. Granted, not as much difference by a LOT compared with a 200 gr bullet from a rifle at 3000 fps. However, that is useless trivia as this thread is about handgun ballistics.
A UMC +P 125 gr. 38 special round:
•Muzzle Velocity: 945 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 248 ft. lbs.
A UMC 125 gr. 38 special round
•Muzzle Velocity: 800 fps
•Muzzle Energy: 185 ft. lbs
So which one would YOU choose?
Colorado Redneck, I guess you didn't follow the remainder of my post after the rifle reference.
With handguns, +P gives more velocity, and more energy. It will not necessarily give more penetration, as that depends in large part on bullet type, bullet construction, and sectional density. A bullet optimized for expansion at 850fps may come apart at 1000fps, and not allow any significant portion to penetrate to optimal depth.
So, once again, +P will only provide a penetration advantage if you use a bullet designed for the velocity band the +P loading will push it to.
Foot-lbs are only one indicator of performance, and can be a highly over-rated indicator.
Also, bear in mind that the resistance to an object in a fluid medium (such as the highly liquid innards of a human) - or drag - goes up with the square of velocity. So, a faster round will have a tendency to slow down that much faster when it connects. In other words, the velocity advantage with regards to penetration diminishes quickly.
On the other hand, momentum is what drives the object against drag (since there's no thrust, anymore, unless you are using a gyro-jet round). Momentum goes up at an even ratio with both velocity and mass.
A heavier bullet, with higher sectional density, has the penetration advantage over a lighter bullet, all else being equal.
With handguns, +P gives more velocity, and more energy. It will not necessarily give more penetration, as that depends in large part on bullet type, bullet construction, and sectional density. A bullet optimized for expansion at 850fps may come apart at 1000fps, and not allow any significant portion to penetrate to optimal depth.
So, once again, +P will only provide a penetration advantage if you use a bullet designed for the velocity band the +P loading will push it to.
Foot-lbs are only one indicator of performance, and can be a highly over-rated indicator.
Also, bear in mind that the resistance to an object in a fluid medium (such as the highly liquid innards of a human) - or drag - goes up with the square of velocity. So, a faster round will have a tendency to slow down that much faster when it connects. In other words, the velocity advantage with regards to penetration diminishes quickly.
On the other hand, momentum is what drives the object against drag (since there's no thrust, anymore, unless you are using a gyro-jet round). Momentum goes up at an even ratio with both velocity and mass.
A heavier bullet, with higher sectional density, has the penetration advantage over a lighter bullet, all else being equal.
orionengnr
New member
Ummm...no.
Sheikyourbootie
New member
MLeake, I'd say you have the physics of terminal ballistics pretty much nailed. On the concept of bullet design, some of the newer designs (like the DPX bullet) simply have the petals beaten back while retaining full weight, thereby increasing the penetration with the velocity increase. As you aptly said earlier, it's the whole package...mass, velocity, design, and what it hits.
Velocity, like everything else, is a balancing act. Generally speaking, the higher the velocity, the more aggressively a given bullet will expand. However, more aggressive expansion usually comes at the price of reduced penetration. The key is to find the best balance of everything.
This balance is not nearly as difficult to find as it used to be. 20-30 years ago, most calibers offered the choice of either rapid expansion with mediocre penetration or good penetration with lackluster or absent expansion. The bullet and propellant technology of the time usually dictated that, in order to get reliable expansion, you had to use a light-for-caliber bullet in order to achieve adequate velocity. Light-for caliber bullets at high velocity, however, usually yield substantially retarded penetration. Way back when, the only ways to get both reliable expansion and adequate penetration were to use a cartridge that, even with light for caliber bullets, still had enough weight to penetrate adequately through momentum (.45 ACP is a good example), use a cartridge that could simply push medium to heavy weight bullets fast enough to still expand (.357 Magnum is a good example), or to use a bullet design malleable enough to expand at low velocity (the 158gr LSWCHP .38 Special "FBI loads" are a good example).
Today, however, bullet and powder technology has advanced to the point that we don't necessarily need light-for-caliber bullets in order to achieve reliable expansion. Modern JHP's expand much more reliably even at relatively low velocities and powders have advanced to the point that we can still get respectable velocities from medium-to-heavy bullets while still remaining within the pressure specs for most cartridges. This does not mean, however, that velocity has become completely irrelevant.
Regardless of the advances in technology, physics remains unchanged. Increasing velocity is still the most efficient means of increasing the kinetic energy of a projectile. Now, I have read and participated in countless debates about the significance of kinetic energy and it is still a topic with no clear consensus. The conclusion that I've come to is this: the temporary cavitation created by the transfer of kinetic energy is not as reliable or predictable in incapacitating a human as placement, penetration, or the diameter of the projectile. Temporary cavitation can, however, create devastating and permanent damage to certain tissues of the human body under the right circumstances. So, as long as kinetic energy does not come at the expense of shot placement, adequate penetration, reliable bullet expansion, or the use of a practical weapon, I think the more you have the better off you are.
While the following are extreme examples, they are helpful in illustrating the point I'm trying to make. Cor-Bon offers a 90gr 9mm +P loading with an aggressively expanding JHP bullet at an advertised velocity of 1500fps for 450fpe of kinetic energy. This loading offers a rather large amount of kinetic energy for that caliber and the bullet used and the design of the bullet will ensure that most, if not all, of that energy is transferred to the target. On top of that, the light bullet of this loading makes it fairly easy for most people to shoot well. Unfortunately, this loading also displays somewhat shallow penetration (typically 8-11" in 10% ballistic gelatin). Such shallow penetration means that, if the person shot is very large, the shot is taken at an oblique angle, or the shot must penetrate an extremity before reaching the torso, this bullet may not have adequate penetration to reach vital organs. In this case, I would rather have a loading with a bit less energy that can reliably expand and penetrate more deeply.
On the other end of the spectrum, a 71gr .32 ACP FMJ offers plenty of penetration (usually 13.5-15.5" in gelatin) and is quite easy to shoot. On top of this, a .32 ACP can be had in very small and easily carried guns. However, a .32 ACP has very little kinetic energy to begin with (usually about 150fpe or less) and the non-expanding FMJ bullet will transfer very little of that energy into the target. In this particular instance, I think that if someone is able to practically carry a larger, more powerful weapon, he or she would be better served by doing so.
Winchester offers a .454 Casull loading with their 260gr Platinum Tip JHP. This loading is advertised at 1800fps which produces 1870fpe of kinetic energy. This loading, ballistically, gives you everything as the PTHP expands quite well (particularly at such high velocity), the heavy weight ensures that you will have ample penetration, and you've got kinetic energy that rivals some centerfire rifles. However, most people cannot shoot a .454 Casull with acceptable accuracy and speed. Because of this, I think most people would be better served with a less powerful gun and/or loading that offers a more manageable level of recoil.
Finally, my father owns a Ruger Redhawk with a 7 1/2" barrel that weighs 54oz and is chambered for .44 Magnum. Much like the .454 Casull, the .44 Magnum is available in loadings that give you excellent expansion, penetration, and kinetic energy. This particular revolver, due to its long sight radius and heavy weight, is also quite pleasant and easy to shoot even with very powerful ammunition. Unfortunately, the attributes that make it such a sweet shooter also make it quite impractical to carry concealed. I think that most people would be better served by a smaller and less powerful but more practical weapon for CCW.
The difficult thing seems to be choosing between multiple loadings for the same cartridge when all of the options have sufficient penetration, are relatively easy to shoot well, and come in practical firearms. The best, and most often discussed/debated example of this seems to be 9mm loadings with 124-127gr bullets (especially +P and +P+ loadings) vs those with 147gr bullet (usually standard pressure loadings). Because both are, with modern bullets, able to achieve adequate penetration, neither are particularly difficult for me to shoot, and both can be used, for the most part, in the same weapons, I personally prefer the 124-127gr loadings (particularly Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot and Winchester 127gr +P+ Ranger T-Series) for their higher energy. While the extra energy may or may not be beneficial in a real shooting, all the other criteria are met so it certainly can't hurt anything.
This balance is not nearly as difficult to find as it used to be. 20-30 years ago, most calibers offered the choice of either rapid expansion with mediocre penetration or good penetration with lackluster or absent expansion. The bullet and propellant technology of the time usually dictated that, in order to get reliable expansion, you had to use a light-for-caliber bullet in order to achieve adequate velocity. Light-for caliber bullets at high velocity, however, usually yield substantially retarded penetration. Way back when, the only ways to get both reliable expansion and adequate penetration were to use a cartridge that, even with light for caliber bullets, still had enough weight to penetrate adequately through momentum (.45 ACP is a good example), use a cartridge that could simply push medium to heavy weight bullets fast enough to still expand (.357 Magnum is a good example), or to use a bullet design malleable enough to expand at low velocity (the 158gr LSWCHP .38 Special "FBI loads" are a good example).
Today, however, bullet and powder technology has advanced to the point that we don't necessarily need light-for-caliber bullets in order to achieve reliable expansion. Modern JHP's expand much more reliably even at relatively low velocities and powders have advanced to the point that we can still get respectable velocities from medium-to-heavy bullets while still remaining within the pressure specs for most cartridges. This does not mean, however, that velocity has become completely irrelevant.
Regardless of the advances in technology, physics remains unchanged. Increasing velocity is still the most efficient means of increasing the kinetic energy of a projectile. Now, I have read and participated in countless debates about the significance of kinetic energy and it is still a topic with no clear consensus. The conclusion that I've come to is this: the temporary cavitation created by the transfer of kinetic energy is not as reliable or predictable in incapacitating a human as placement, penetration, or the diameter of the projectile. Temporary cavitation can, however, create devastating and permanent damage to certain tissues of the human body under the right circumstances. So, as long as kinetic energy does not come at the expense of shot placement, adequate penetration, reliable bullet expansion, or the use of a practical weapon, I think the more you have the better off you are.
While the following are extreme examples, they are helpful in illustrating the point I'm trying to make. Cor-Bon offers a 90gr 9mm +P loading with an aggressively expanding JHP bullet at an advertised velocity of 1500fps for 450fpe of kinetic energy. This loading offers a rather large amount of kinetic energy for that caliber and the bullet used and the design of the bullet will ensure that most, if not all, of that energy is transferred to the target. On top of that, the light bullet of this loading makes it fairly easy for most people to shoot well. Unfortunately, this loading also displays somewhat shallow penetration (typically 8-11" in 10% ballistic gelatin). Such shallow penetration means that, if the person shot is very large, the shot is taken at an oblique angle, or the shot must penetrate an extremity before reaching the torso, this bullet may not have adequate penetration to reach vital organs. In this case, I would rather have a loading with a bit less energy that can reliably expand and penetrate more deeply.
On the other end of the spectrum, a 71gr .32 ACP FMJ offers plenty of penetration (usually 13.5-15.5" in gelatin) and is quite easy to shoot. On top of this, a .32 ACP can be had in very small and easily carried guns. However, a .32 ACP has very little kinetic energy to begin with (usually about 150fpe or less) and the non-expanding FMJ bullet will transfer very little of that energy into the target. In this particular instance, I think that if someone is able to practically carry a larger, more powerful weapon, he or she would be better served by doing so.
Winchester offers a .454 Casull loading with their 260gr Platinum Tip JHP. This loading is advertised at 1800fps which produces 1870fpe of kinetic energy. This loading, ballistically, gives you everything as the PTHP expands quite well (particularly at such high velocity), the heavy weight ensures that you will have ample penetration, and you've got kinetic energy that rivals some centerfire rifles. However, most people cannot shoot a .454 Casull with acceptable accuracy and speed. Because of this, I think most people would be better served with a less powerful gun and/or loading that offers a more manageable level of recoil.
Finally, my father owns a Ruger Redhawk with a 7 1/2" barrel that weighs 54oz and is chambered for .44 Magnum. Much like the .454 Casull, the .44 Magnum is available in loadings that give you excellent expansion, penetration, and kinetic energy. This particular revolver, due to its long sight radius and heavy weight, is also quite pleasant and easy to shoot even with very powerful ammunition. Unfortunately, the attributes that make it such a sweet shooter also make it quite impractical to carry concealed. I think that most people would be better served by a smaller and less powerful but more practical weapon for CCW.
The difficult thing seems to be choosing between multiple loadings for the same cartridge when all of the options have sufficient penetration, are relatively easy to shoot well, and come in practical firearms. The best, and most often discussed/debated example of this seems to be 9mm loadings with 124-127gr bullets (especially +P and +P+ loadings) vs those with 147gr bullet (usually standard pressure loadings). Because both are, with modern bullets, able to achieve adequate penetration, neither are particularly difficult for me to shoot, and both can be used, for the most part, in the same weapons, I personally prefer the 124-127gr loadings (particularly Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot and Winchester 127gr +P+ Ranger T-Series) for their higher energy. While the extra energy may or may not be beneficial in a real shooting, all the other criteria are met so it certainly can't hurt anything.
secret_agent_man
Moderator
And maybe you would rather just have a good wadcutter over anything else.
My compliements WebleymkV, that is about the best post I have read on this area of ballistics.
Bullet design is an ongoing evolution, with advances in both penitration and expansion on an irregular basis. So your choice of round may change over time.
But nothing, not even a phaser in the 40 watt range, beats shot placement.
Bullet design is an ongoing evolution, with advances in both penitration and expansion on an irregular basis. So your choice of round may change over time.
But nothing, not even a phaser in the 40 watt range, beats shot placement.
secret_agent_man
Moderator
To settle this, it is necessary to reexamine the stopping power characteristics of the 125 grain 357 MAGNUM round at 1450 fps. Did it make suspects stop like they were hit by a lightning bolt, or is that just part of the lore surrounding this caliber?
Contrast the above with the perceived effects of a 124 grain 9mm bullet at 1220 fps which some would say stops suspects more like a strike from a rubber garden hose.
What's in your gun?
Contrast the above with the perceived effects of a 124 grain 9mm bullet at 1220 fps which some would say stops suspects more like a strike from a rubber garden hose.
What's in your gun?
Magnum revolvers are quite different than other handguns not only because of their high velocity and energy, but also because they can use bullets that would not feed reliably in many, if not most, semi-automatics.
The 125gr .357 Magnum loadings such as Federal 357B and the similar SJHP loading from Remington create wound tracks quite unlike most other handguns (other magnums like .41 and .44 Magnum as well as a few other .357 Magnum loadings can, of course, be the exception to this). They typically penetrate adequately (usually about 12-13") but they also routinely shed their jackets and fragment a bit.
The fragmentation/jacket separation that is typically observed with these, however, is quite unlike most other handguns in that the jacket is shed in fairly large shards well into the penetration tract (it is not unusual to find large portions of the jacket at 8-10") and there is typically still an 80-100gr core that penetrates on to 12" or better. Most other handgun cartridges use either all-lead hollowpoints which usually don't fragment or fragment very little or fully-jacketed ones that either fragment little or none or fragment into many small pieces very early in the penetration tract.
Fragmentation in handguns is usually not desireable because it typically retards penetration too severely. This is why so many modern JHP's are specifically engineered to not only expand reliably, but to also retain as much of their weight as possible. The .357 Magnum loadings in question, however, are able to still maintain adequate penetration even though they routinely fragment.
Dr. Martin Fackler has written fairly extensively about the wounds cause by fragmenting bullets in rifle cartridges such as .308 Winchester/7.62x51 NATO and .223 Remington/5.56x45 NATO. As I understand it, the fragmentation of these bullets deep enough in the body to reach vital organs allow the temporary cavitation of the bullet to lacerate tissues that would otherwise be elastic enough not to suffer permanent damage from temporary cavitation. Obviously this phenomenon does not typically occur with handgun bullets because any fragmentation occuring with most handgun cartridges occurs too early in the penetration tract to have reliably reached vital organs. As I explained earlier, however, the 125gr SJHP .357 Magnum loadings fragment deep enough into the target to potentially have effect on vital organs. Part of the reason, I think, for the fearsome reputation of these particular .357 Magnum loadings is that they were capable of producing some of the same phenomenon that Dr. Fackler observed with fragmenting rifle bullets, though most likely not to the same degree.
While I do think that the 125gr .357 Magnum, assuming that the shooter can handle the recoil, would be a more effective loading than the 124gr 9mm you mentioned, I'd hardly liken the 9mm to a smack with a rubber hose. As a matter of fact, the 9mm ballistics you cited (sounds like you're referring to Speer's 124gr +P Gold Dot loading) are, IMHO, among the best 9mm loadings available.
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secret_agent_man
Moderator
Well, then. The only substantial difference between those two bullets is velocity. Game over.
That is a really good breakdown of what becomes of the 357 MAG once in the body. Essentially the engineered limits of the bullet have been exceeded when fragmentation occurs, as I doubt it was designed that way. While that may make a horrible wound channel, or channels, there does not seem to be a stopping problem with the similar sized 357 SIG bullet, which was engineered not to fragment on impact.
Given the above, fragmentation can be somewhat ruled out or least significantly discounted as a factor in stopping power, which leaves velocity as the main causal factor to immediate incapacitation. Which is, of course, what happens to most folks hit by lightning bolts.
Personally, I prefer to drop down in 357 MAG velocity to 1250 fps and go up in weight to 158 grains, approximating a similar 155 grain 40 S&W load. Since I shoot it through a three inch barrel, you can lop off another 1000 fps, and there you have it: The Super Police 38/44 as developed by Elmer Keith and associates in response to police demand for something bigger than 38 Special.
Buried in the lore of the Texas Dept. of Public Safety, the 158 grain round was preferred when 357 MAGNUM revolvers were the agency's primary Highway Patrol sidearm. But expansion problems compelled the use of the 125 grain version instead. That bullet problem seems to be cured today. But alas, since the gun has fallen out of favor with law enforcement, data from police shootings with the 357 MAG and modern hollowpoints are virtually non-existent. We will never really know which is the best in class, the 125 grain or the 158 grain 357 MAG. But I'll put my money on the Texas DPS. Also Rick Perry, mom, apple pie
and the U.S. Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals.
Sheikyourbootie
New member
Were it just that simple, it would be "game over" 124 grain jhp 1250 vs 125 grain 1450 versus 158 grain at 1250.....probably still going to come down to the totality of the circumstances....placement having the most profound impact on "stopping power" when comparing any of these rounds. Bullet design will have a lot of influence on whether that kinetic energy will used for penetration or expansion.
I would feel equally comfortable (or uncomfortable) using any of the rounds mentioned above.
Not really. As I explained earlier, velocity was only one part of the equation. The old .357 Magnum loadings had reputations for effectiveness not only at 1450fps from a 4" or longer barrel, but also at 1200-1300 from a 2-3" barrel. That is, of course, the same velocity range as a 124gr 9mm +P, so why then did the .357 still have such a fearsome reputation? The answer, I think is that the design of the bullet used was such that fragmentation was still occurring even at the reduced velocity. The biggest difference in performance between a 4"+ barrel and a snub was that the snub probably gave a bit more penetration.
Actually, certain .357 Sig loadings are able to behave quite similarly to the older .357 Magnum loadings. Cor-Bon's 125gr loading, for example, shows shockingly similar performance.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page608.htm
As far as other .357 SIG loadings that don't fragment, they have good reputations because they work well. Of course, there are also many loadings in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP that work very well also. Are some of these loadings better than others? Sure they are but that doesn't mean that one is totally inadequate.
Also, remember that a lot of the development in non-fragmenting .357 Sig loadings was done very early on in the cartridge's development. When it first debuted in 1994, the .357 Sig was simply driving then-current 9mm bullets at .357 Magnum velocities. This was a period in time in which even 9mm loadings were just barely able to maintain adequate penetration along with expansion. When the same bullets were driven 200-300fps faster, they too-often fragmented violently and rapidly or at the very least over-expanded an wrapped their petals back around the base of the bullet. The bullet makers, at that time, simply did not have technology to make a 9mm bullet that could fragment in the same way that .357 Magnum bullets could (something that's still extremely difficult to do), so they had to settle for the next best thing: expansion with little or no fragmentation.
The problem with comparing the reputations of the .357 Magnum and .357 Sig is that, by and large, they haven't been used side-by-side. What I mean by this is that by the time .357 Sig gained much popularity with police, the days of the police revolver, and thus the .357 Magnum's use by cops, was already pretty well over. The reputation of a cartridge's effectiveness is typically based on how it performs in comparison to the other cartridges in common use at the time. In the .357 Sig's case, such cartridges would include 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP against which it stacks up quite favorably.
.357 Magnum, on the other hand, had a somewhat different set of contemporaries to be compared against. At the time of the .357 Magnum's greatest popularity among police, the other common service cartridges for it to be compared against were .38 Special, 9mm, 10mm, and .45 ACP. .357 Magnum was unquestionably head and shoulders above both .38 Special and 9mm both because of it's better ballistics and because of the rather primitive bullets available at the time (remember, in the 1980's Winchester Silvertips were cutting edge). The interesting thing, however, is that .357 Magnum was still considered to be "king of the hill" even when compared with .45 ACP and 10mm Auto loadings such as the Speer 200gr "Flying Ashtray" .45 load and the Norma 170gr JHP 10mm load which could, even with the primitive bullets available, still perform adequately by today's standards. These .45 and 10mm loadings were able to at least get "in the ballpark" in terms of kinetic energy compared to .357 Magnum (the Speer load produced 400-450fpe while the Norma load produced 600-650fpe) and both penetrated well enough, but neither fragmented like the .357 Magnum could.
Fragmentation has been demonstrated to have significant effect on incapacitation through Fackler's observations about fragmenting rifle bullets. Unfortunately, most of the best work on handgun effectiveness was done after the .357 Magnum had fallen out of favor with police, or at least near the end of its popularity. Because of this, about the extent of our knowledge about the cartridge is that it works very well, but the reasons why have remained somewhat unclear. In looking at the information that is available, however, I can't see any reason to believe that the effects cause by fragmenting rifle bullets would not also happen on a smaller scale (due to the difference in kinetic energy and thus temporary cavity) with a handgun bullet that fragments in a similar fashion.
What is often misunderstood, I think, is that not all fragmentation is the same. As I said before, most semi-auto cartridges fragment in a way that is not desirable. From what I've seen and read, about the only way to get useful fragmentation out of a semi-auto bullet is to drive a "tough" medium-to-heavy weight JHP like a Hornady XTP or Speer Gold Dot fast enough to slightly exceed it's designed velocity window. Unfortunately, very few semi-auto cartridges are capable of driving bullets of that weight that fast, .357 Sig and 10mm are about the only two common semi-auto cartridges I can think of that seem to be able to do it, and even they can only do so in a few loadings. At the velocities attained by most semi-auto handguns, the bullets that are available seem to either fragment too rapidly or they don't fragment much at all. I think you're probably right in that the 125gr .357 bullets probably weren't specifically designed to fragment the way they do, but I think that the ammo makers did simply stumble on to something that happens to work very, very well. It certainly wouldn't be the first or last time that something good was discovered by accident.
Revolvers, however, are capable of using bullets that semi-autos can't. With a semi-jacketed hollowpoint, the "sweet spot" of velocity between overly rapid fragmentation and lack of fragmentation seems to be much lower and have a much wider window for a given bullet weight than with a fully-jacketed hollowpoint commonly used in a semi-auto.
Make no mistake, the 125gr SJHP loadings aren't the only good .357 Magnum loads available. In my own informal testing (shooting wet and dry catalogs), I've found that it isn't particularly difficult to get Remington Express 158gr SJHP or Winchester 145gr Silvertips to shed their jackets either. The performance of the 158gr Remington loading in particular is strikingly reminiscent of the Remington 125gr loading (unsurprising as both bullets use the same basic construction). The only significant difference that I've been able to see between the 125gr and 158gr Remington loadings is that the 158gr does basically the same thing as the 125 but at a deeper penetration depth. While I've not tested them, I would expect similar results from the 125 and 158gr Federal loadings because they have the same reputation and similar construction to the Remingtons. Actually, I have long been a proponent of the heavier .357 Magnum loadings particularly from a short barrel because they seem to "lose" less velocity than their lighter counterparts.
The only real problem with 158gr .357 Magnums is, like the Texas DPS found, some of them don't expand particularly well and as such you have to be somewhat picky about them. A prime example of this is the 158gr Speer Gold Dot. This loading seems to be designed as a dual-purpose self-defense/hunting load and does not expand nearly as aggressively as Gold Dots in other calibers and weights. One gelatin test that I saw showed a 158gr .357 Mag Gold Dot fired from a 2 1/2" barrel. While the bullet did expand, it only expanded to a somewhat disappointing .5" or so and the velocity was an equally disappointing 1000-1050fps (I prefer at least 1100-1150fps from that weight). The reason for this, I suspect, is that Speer engineered both the bullet and powder burn rate for longer barrels commonly used for hunting. Because of this, I would not recommend the 158gr Gold Dot in anything less than a 4" barrel.
You're absolutely right about that. Even more so, it is unfortunate that we don't have much testing data on any .357 Magnum loadings, old or new, with the exception of a few downloaded "low recoil" loadings like Remington's 125gr Golden Saber or Speer's 135gr Short Barrel Gold Dot. From what little information I've been able to dig up over the years, it appears to me that both the 125gr and 158gr .357 Magnum loadings (as well as a few in between) have much to offer and that the difference in performance between them is not huge (this is unsurprising because the kinetic energy and bullet constructions between them is quite similar). While I'm not one to take the Marshall & Sanow numbers too literally (I think there are too many variables to come up with a concrete one-shot-stop figure), I do note that both the 125gr and 158gr .357 Magnum loadings scored very high and that the numbers on them were based on large amounts of data. While I don't think that we can absolutely say that these loadings will give you a concrete xx% chance of incapacitation with a single shot, I do think that we can safely say that these loadings are very, very effective.
I am a bit hopeful though. Revolvers seem to be making something of a comeback, particularly small CCW-oriented snubs. It is my hope that, with the renewed interest in revolvers perhaps we will see not only resurrected interest in excellent revolver cartridges by the ammo makers but also perhaps some new testing and interest from the terminal ballistics people. We are, actually, already seeing this to some degree as both .38 Special and .45 Long Colt have been the topics of great interest over the past few years. I can only hope that such interest will spread to other cartridges like .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Special, and .44 Magnum as I think these are often overlooked even though they have much to offer.
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There is another issue with .357 rounds. Pick a load, say the 125g JHP, and drive it at the same velocity from a revolver and a semi-auto (.357 SIG). From the revolver there is considerably more blast and flash than the semi-auto. There is some speculation that at least part of the 125g JHP .357 Mag round reputation was based on psycological rather than physical stops.
That is, the bad guy felt both the impact and the blast and saw the flash, and concluded that whatever hit him was super powerful, and he should give up.
From the 357 SIG, absent the blast and flash, only physical effects mattered.
I don't know of any way to measure the non-physical effects, other than anacdotal data where the shooter MISSED with .357 Mag, and the bad guy still gave up! That was a not uncommon event 'back in the day'.
That is, the bad guy felt both the impact and the blast and saw the flash, and concluded that whatever hit him was super powerful, and he should give up.
From the 357 SIG, absent the blast and flash, only physical effects mattered.
I don't know of any way to measure the non-physical effects, other than anacdotal data where the shooter MISSED with .357 Mag, and the bad guy still gave up! That was a not uncommon event 'back in the day'.
I'm not quite sure I buy the psychological angle because the .357 Magnum is far from the only very loud handgun cartridge. I've only ever seen a .357 Sig fired once and I think it may have been ported, but that particular gun was actually substantially louder than the short-barrel .357 Magnum revolver I'd been firing the same day. In my experience, 10mm, 9mm +P+, and .45 ACP +P can all be loud enough to rival the .357 Magnum (at least to my ears). While I've never shot either one, both .30 Carbine and .22 Magnum are purported to be extremely loud from handguns, more so even than the .357 Magnum.
secret_agent_man
Moderator
LOL. Does this thread sound familiar? It has three possible outcomes:
Patriot_Riot
Inactive
I read a thread on another forum of a retried cop who became a coroner (worked in a morgue). In his 20+ year experience working in the morgue he stated seeing a lot of fatalities from different kinds of rounds. He stated something to the effect that an increase in bullet weight/mass was able to double the force. But a large increase in velocity was able to create 4 times as much force. This is when talking about rifle rounds that have lets say 80gr traveling at 2400 ft/sec. This doubles the temporary cavity created by the projectile in the body. Now when speaking about handgun rounds it seems that it usually much better to choose the heavier load than the one with more velocity because the difference in velocity wasnt enough to create such an increase of the temporary cavity. He also posted his observations of 9mm and 380.auto rounds failing on many occassions to continue on their original path when i would encounter heavy clothing and bone. He stated that in many cases even the great 9mm would ricochet off of bones and become non fatal with one properly placed shot, and that many shots where needed in a lot of cases. He did state that it wasn't every case nor that it was the majority of cases but that it was enough to get him to switch from carrying 9mm to a 45. He also stated that he could not recall a single event in which a 45 failed to penetrate through bone. It makes a lot of sense, and given his experience and the way he presented the information it was easy to see that he wasnt trying to argue calibers but only trying to share his observations that wouldnt be available to people who don't work in such fields. With that said before i start a flame war, ANYTHING CAN KILL YOU even a bb gun will get you killed ...unlikely but it can. It seems that however unlikely it is that your 9mm wont penetrate that it is possible and much more likely to happen that if you were to use a 45. He also explained that balistic gellatin isn't very accurate. I hope it shed some light, or maybe helped, ill try to find the thread for you guys to enjoy.
secret_agent_man
Moderator
If that was deadmeat2, and it sounds it, all that he wrote is complete bs. Be careful what you read and believe on an internet message board.