Does Velocity Offer Advantage?

[Proud Poppa]

In looking at different types of ammo I find that there is a broad array of velocities for the same weight bullets, but from different manufacturers. For example, one manufacturer list a 9mm 124gr JHP at 1100 fps while another lists the same bullet at 1200 fps. And then there's the +P's than have the same bullet weight, but at even higher velocities.

I don't mean to major on the minors, but in looking at the same weight bullet, should I opt for the "hotter" rounds? What advantage, if any, does it offer?

 

[MrWesson]

Simply put more power/penetration/possible expansion.

 

[Flakbait]

Bullet design also has to be factored in the equation for SD. Standard run of the mill JHP using bullet designed 20 years ago (i.e. Remington Express, Winchester whitebox) will probably clog up in heavy clothing and act as FMJ bullets defeating the whole point of using JHP.

Modern JHP bullets are designed to avoid this (Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST, Winchester PDX just to name a few). You cannot really compare different products just looking at a few specs like muzzle velocity. If you can find results of bullets fired into ballistic gelatin results through google on all the latest modern ammunition. You can find this data on the Winchester LE and ATK LE specific websites.

Sometimes increased velocity and plus P energy gives you more bullet expansion at the cost of less penetration. I think examining actually gelatin results is the only way to compare one product to another, even products made by the same manufacturer.

Its really the whole package (velocity, bullet weight, bullet design, muzzle flash, feeding reliability) not just any one factor that makes a good SD cartridge. That is why the latest ammuntion designs have a higher price point.

In fact, I don't really see the point of why ammo makers still sell ammo with those old JHP designs that dont reliably expand well. Buy inexpensive FMJ for target practice and quality ammo for SD.

 

[oldkim]

different components....

All those numbers come from various components from the various manufacturers.

Some will use powders and/or bullets that are marketed for a specific use... to be less recoil or flash for low light use... or better expansion or penetration...

When you compare FMJ to FMJ same weight and do some research...

As what is best... what are you planning on using it for? Range, self defense, show off at the range (loud or flash)...

Shoot what you shoot well with... and fits in your budget.

 

[BarryLee]

So would higher velocity provide greater accuracy if all other variables were the same?

 

[Mello2u]

BarryLee

So would higher velocity provide greater accuracy if all other variables were the same?

Probably no. Just a shorter flight time.

 

[Daekar]

No, higher velocity has virtually nothing to do with accuracy, at least not for the purposes of this conversation. When working up rifle handloads, you can push velocities higher, but depending on the powder, bullets, and individual gun you're using, you'll reach a velocity threshold where higher speed leads to poor repeatability. I can't say I've ever heard of this happening in a handgun, since the bullets are so slow.

 

[MLeake]

Higher velocity may or may not be within an individual weapon's sweet spot. However, all else being equal, higher velocity = less drop at any given distance, so it is helpful in a hunting handgun (assuming it groups well) because it requires adustment in sight picture.

Daekar, the same is done with black powder rifles (as far as working up loads). The optimum powder load for grouping may not be at the maximum end allowed by the rifle manufacturer or loading manual. (And we are talking velocities closer to centerfire handgun than centerfire rifle.)

 

[Don Glock]

it depends on many variables, mainly the jhp design. extra velocity does not automatically equal better performance. it's most often just a marketing ploy, as evidenced by all the people that waste their money on buffalo bore or double tap +p+ 9mm, or even their "+p" 40cal.


just get standard pressure HST 147gr 9mm. it's the best performer on the market right now.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

With all other factors being the same, higher velocity will also mean more recoil and hence may mean slower followup shots.

 

[Old Grump]

I'm a dinosaur and never bought into the hyper velocity hype. If a bullet doesn't hit what I am shooting at then all that speed and uber power is wasted. I will make an exception for dangerous game calibers where good enough is accurate enough and penetration is the desired result. Even there I will sacrifice speed for a heavier well designed bullet as long as it has the energy needed to get to where it can do the most good. I have found that my most accurate loads were near max load but not quite the fastest possible.

I have trouble believing that old saw about HP bullets getting clogged up and not opening up. I suspect that a well designed bullet is going to expand no matter what is or isn't in that teeny tiny hole as long as the jacket is thinner up front than it is further back. If you have to rely on being able to get the right stuff into the hole to open the bullet up that is bad planning. I suspect a lot of exit holes are misleading and that if you followed the bullet path with an inside look you will find a lot of bullets that were suspected of not opening up and creating havoc inside really did open up. Those that didn't probably weren't going fast enough to open up no matter what they hit. Of course I could be wrong, I often am but it just doesn't seem logical that a bullet wouldn't open up because it got a sliver of denim or glass or whatever in that teeny tiny hole.

 

[Sheikyourbootie]

old grump ......I suspect a lot of exit holes are misleading and that if you followed the bullet path with an inside look you will find a lot of bullets that were suspected of not opening up and creating havoc inside really did open up. Those that didn't probably weren't going fast enough to open up no matter what they hit.

As evidenced by many bullets I've tested in various media (the proverbial water jugs, wet newapring/phonebooks, and rubber mulch) I've seen what you describe in that first sentence. The pics here support your assertion: The bullet on the left (in both pics) fragmented from the mushroomed tip getting sheared by the jacket...old design .357 SJHP.

The newer designs just have the petals beaten back further, the faster they are driven...but they generally don't fragment as much as some of the old ammo. Unlike the poster who fails to see any merit in continuing old designs, I DO see merit in continuing CHEAPER bullets that still perform well, in spite of what some might perceive as a shortcoming...such as tendency for fragmentation.

With the newer designs like the Gold Dots, and DPX for example, I'm not sure I'd feel a need to wring every last bit of Fps out of a bullet, unless you are on the lower end of the operational threshold of that particular bullet.

 

[oldkim]

higher extreme velocity...

Higher recoil and muzzle flash... muzzle climb and percussion.

May not be good for the shooter as it may impact their ability to handle the recoil which can be detrimental to accuracy and as many have stated for quick response time to return on target (follow up shots if needed).

 

[secret_agent_man]

I have trouble believing that old saw about HP bullets getting clogged up and not opening up.

Most cops I've talked to are not real optimistic about bullet expansion in the human body. Rounds look good in gel, etc., but don't follow through in the field. But, as with mechanics and doctors, they all have a different opinion on the same thing.

There's another old saw that says each incremental increase in bullet velocity results in a corresponding, and significant, decrease in bullet weight to maintain the same ME and increase it in some cases. Sure wish I had bookmarked that page. It might help explain such conundrums such as why a 115 grain 9mm BPLE load bullet at 1300 fps will do about the same thing as a 147 grain load at subsonic speed or 980 fps (Speer).

 

[ClydeFrog]

Morgue monsters & jello junkies....

Many handgun owners/armed professionals go by the results of ME(medical examiner) or autopsy reports, some go by the way ammunition performs in test media(jello, wet phone books, frozen water jugs, butcher shop meat, etc).

I think a well designed or engineered handgun round will cause a wide trauma injury(entry wound) with a lot of shock or force(KE).
High vel drives the bullet in deeper that may be true but those wounds may take time to cause the intended result. Time isn't on your side in a lethal force event.
To me a .45acp, a .357magnum, a .44spl, 10mm, .357sig or .40S&W provide the best levels of KE(energy) & speed(vel).
I'd also agree that 12-14" of penetration is ideal but a smaller wound channel is not as practical as a wider powerful wound(like a .45acp, .44magnum or .357magnum).
An older gun/tactics training video(on VHS, remember those? ) had a "expert" who negated & put down the KE level of a defense/carry round. I disagreed with his statements & his reasons.
I also read a gunwriter's "advice" that you should carry the largest handgun you can properly handle. I disagree with that nonsense too. Guns are not props!
I say it's best to pack a compact/med size frame sidearm in a caliber with proper ballistics(a .40, .357sig, .45acp, etc).
ClydeFrog

 

[Jeff OTMG]

I am a big believer in velocity so I carry some of the fastest stuff around. Remember the equation for kenetic energy, KE= 1/2 * m * v^2. The velocity component of the equation is squared, mass is only to the first power.

Penetration of intermediate objects are better with velocity which is why the NIJ standards specify a caliberand bullet weight at a given velocity.

 

[Kreyzhorse]

Velocity helps add energy to a bullet.

It isn't the be all end all in selecting ammo of course, but if given a choice between a 200gr bullet traveling at 800 ft per second or a 200gr bullet traveling at 1,000 ft per second, I'll take the extra velocity every time.

 

[MikeNice81]

To ket it simple, it depends. A Winchester T 127gr+p+ 9mm had lots of velocity on it's side. However, in Winchester's own testing it has under performed when compared to the much slower 147gr 9mm. Why? In my opinion it is because the bullet is pushed beyond the design envelope.

Bullets are designed to perform a certain way with in a certain velocity window. If the extra velocity exceeds that window you face diminishing results.

I have considerred a move to 124gr+P ammo for the velocity. From what I have seen in various places, 124gr+p 9mm takes about 2.5 inches to fully expand, usually. While 147gr takes 4 inches to fully expand, usually. At four inches or more there is a chance that the expansion has missed the vital bits. So, the higher velocity may open the bullet earlier and provide expansion at a more critical time.

Just my observations from looking at a small number of tests that actually list depth to maximum expansion.

 

[Slamfire]

I am a big believer in momentum. Momentum is conserved not kinetic energy.

Momentum is mass time velocity. So if you do increase the velocity you increase the momentum.

 

[WESHOOT2]

I have more than opinion

get standard pressure HST 147gr 9mm. it's the best performer on the market right now.

There are far too many examples of this being utterly untrue.

People who shoot people with the 9mm most often choose +P and +P+ modern-design JHP offerings weighing between 124g and 127g.