Does the temporary cavity really matter?
- Thread starter Super-Dave
- Start date
well said!
As I see it (in my seriously unprofessional opinion) You have three variables not counting size of the person or any drugs, armor etc.
Placement being the MOST important.
How large "diameter" a wound is. Because not only will it cause more damage to a vital area hit but is more likely to hit a vital area ( seriously though the diff in most handgun rounds as far as diameter is small so at most we are talking what? a quarter of an inch?)
How far it penetrates. Again because the further the wound extends into a vital area the more damage.
In the center mass of a person there is a small % that when hit will actually result in an instant or fast kill so it seems to me concentrate first on hitting a vital spot aka training. Second on caliber, making a big hole and third on velocity or penetration or making a deep hole. The second and third of which need to be factored against the first. The biggest bullet you can throw at the fastest speed while still hitting a vital area reliably under the circumstances needed.
Point being I am not going to count on Temp wound cavity over being well trained with an effective round I can control.
had to add: it seems the more i learn about it a 12g is the best thing going. Easy to use, can be fired with some skill by most anyone, does obnoxious damage, you can pretty much throw out worrying about (if you hit deep meat) if it will do enough damage, simple to use and I have yet to hear about anyone getting shot a couple times in the chest with a 12 and still attacking the defendand.
As I see it (in my seriously unprofessional opinion) You have three variables not counting size of the person or any drugs, armor etc.
Placement being the MOST important.
How large "diameter" a wound is. Because not only will it cause more damage to a vital area hit but is more likely to hit a vital area ( seriously though the diff in most handgun rounds as far as diameter is small so at most we are talking what? a quarter of an inch?)
How far it penetrates. Again because the further the wound extends into a vital area the more damage.
In the center mass of a person there is a small % that when hit will actually result in an instant or fast kill so it seems to me concentrate first on hitting a vital spot aka training. Second on caliber, making a big hole and third on velocity or penetration or making a deep hole. The second and third of which need to be factored against the first. The biggest bullet you can throw at the fastest speed while still hitting a vital area reliably under the circumstances needed.
Point being I am not going to count on Temp wound cavity over being well trained with an effective round I can control.
had to add: it seems the more i learn about it a 12g is the best thing going. Easy to use, can be fired with some skill by most anyone, does obnoxious damage, you can pretty much throw out worrying about (if you hit deep meat) if it will do enough damage, simple to use and I have yet to hear about anyone getting shot a couple times in the chest with a 12 and still attacking the defendand.
Last edited:
orionengnr
New member
If you're the dentist, all cavities are temporary.
If you're the patient, a cavity seems everlasting.
If you're the patient, a cavity seems everlasting.
There are limits. A BB won't do if fired from a Daisy air gun. Obviously, enough mass and velocity are needed.
Once that critical mass is reached, it's just as the real estate agents tell us - there are three important considerations, and they are location, location, and location.
Once that critical mass is reached, it's just as the real estate agents tell us - there are three important considerations, and they are location, location, and location.
Rifleman1776
New member
fastbolt nailed it.
Years ago I read a report about FBI tests on sheep and pigs. After many shots, and dead animals, with a variety of calibers, ammunition and such no solid conclusions could be reached. There are simply too many variables and unknowns about this issue of killing with guns. Bottom line is, if it works, it works.
Years ago I read a report about FBI tests on sheep and pigs. After many shots, and dead animals, with a variety of calibers, ammunition and such no solid conclusions could be reached. There are simply too many variables and unknowns about this issue of killing with guns. Bottom line is, if it works, it works.
I have no doubts that a Kodiak or Grizzly could tear apart nearly every part of the human body. Which is lucky, because according to the Constitution...
I have the right to Bear Arms in order to protect myself...
________
To those of you who think the shock of the damage caused by the temporary cavity causes negligible effect; I'll find some rubber bullets to put into my 9mm cases. You stand 10 feet in front of me and take a couple of rounds in the chest. This will negate any damage caused by bleeding or tearing of vital organs from the passage of the bullet through the body and will only convey superficial damage from the impact of the rounds; resulting in a very shallow and a minimally representative model of the damage caused by the temporary cavity of modern ammunition that remains in the body when fired (i.e. modern hollowpoints).
If you can administer an effective attack after that, you deserve to hit me.
~LT
TrendKill777
Inactive
My opinion on this matter is that you need a good weight/speed ratio. IMO, 115 grains at 1400 FPS (really hot 9mm) is marginal for self defense, 135gr .40SW at 1300 FPS, and the 165gr .45 at 1250 fps are better. I believe in the theory of hydrostatic shock, but I don't believe that it damages nearby organs such as the lungs, liver, kidney, etc. I believe the effectiveness of a handgun cartridge spikes when it travels around the 1200-1300 fps mark, because the hydrostatic shock provides just enough wallop to the nervous system with good shot placement, and causes it to fail for a small amount of time, making the BG drop. Rapid blood loss means a rapid drop in blood pressure, and I think the knockdown from the initial hydrostatic shock to the nervous system is just enough to keep the BG down for the effects of blood loss to take its place. Nobody in fear of their life if going to fire one round, and getting up after losing a few pints of blood and a "walloped" nervous system must take a lot of practice, regardless if he feels the pain or not, don't you think?
Edit.
Brassfetcher
Federal .45 ACP 165 grain hollow points at 900 feet per second penetrated 10-14 inches of ballistic gelatin with 0.75 expansion, with a 3.8" barrel. Given, Humans are not gel, but it gives a rough estimation of how much penetration would occur. Hit the sternum, and you will get less penetration. However, Corbons .45 ACP 165gr HP's at 1250 FPS will have adequate penetration, and enough velocity to create a large temporary cavity, and have a large permanent cavity. Its not like you have to pick either or, you just have to look for the right loads. You don't need extremely heavy bullets to properly penetrate, just a good mixture of velocity and bullet weight.
.355 bullet diameters at high speeds are effective, but with the .451 (1250fps) you have a wider diameter bullet displacing more tissue than the former, smaller round. Thought for the brain, I guess?
Edit.
Brassfetcher
Federal .45 ACP 165 grain hollow points at 900 feet per second penetrated 10-14 inches of ballistic gelatin with 0.75 expansion, with a 3.8" barrel. Given, Humans are not gel, but it gives a rough estimation of how much penetration would occur. Hit the sternum, and you will get less penetration. However, Corbons .45 ACP 165gr HP's at 1250 FPS will have adequate penetration, and enough velocity to create a large temporary cavity, and have a large permanent cavity. Its not like you have to pick either or, you just have to look for the right loads. You don't need extremely heavy bullets to properly penetrate, just a good mixture of velocity and bullet weight.
.355 bullet diameters at high speeds are effective, but with the .451 (1250fps) you have a wider diameter bullet displacing more tissue than the former, smaller round. Thought for the brain, I guess?
Last edited:
My training and experience are in their infancies, and my opinion of effective loads is of value only to myself. That said, I have selected my SD round - doesn't matter to this post what it is - and that's the end of that part. Next part is practice and train, train and practice, repeat, repeat, repeat.
In the unfortunate event that I ever decide that my main chance to stay alive is to use deadly force on an attacker, I will shoot to the triangle on the upper chest (might even hit it) or any other place available, be as deliberate as circumstances allow, and continue shooting the CM until the threat has clearly been neutralized. This is not a sport, and if the BG is stopped by one shot or the entire magazine, if I live through it - that's the goal. No winners in a gun fight, just survivors.
As to the technical question of TC - once I have decided on a SD round, I don't care anymore.
In the unfortunate event that I ever decide that my main chance to stay alive is to use deadly force on an attacker, I will shoot to the triangle on the upper chest (might even hit it) or any other place available, be as deliberate as circumstances allow, and continue shooting the CM until the threat has clearly been neutralized. This is not a sport, and if the BG is stopped by one shot or the entire magazine, if I live through it - that's the goal. No winners in a gun fight, just survivors.
As to the technical question of TC - once I have decided on a SD round, I don't care anymore.