Does the temporary cavity really matter?

Does the temporary cavity really matter?

  • yes

    Votes: 40 59.7%

  • no

    Votes: 27 40.3%
  • Total voters
    67
  • Poll closed .
From Super Dave Osborne,

If it is irrelevant, what explains the .357 magnums success?
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I shouldn't say anything. I should stay away. But...

The .357 Magnum is no more or less effective than a good many other calibers and rounds. That is a fact. Not all loads for the .357 are equally effective at all tasks. Not all bullets are equally effective at all tasks with all loads.

If you had a lick of knowledge of why the .357 Magnum was a success you'd know better than to say "what explains it's success?".

What really made the .357s rep was hunting. Later when S&W figured it could be chambered in a K frame, the .357 became the round of choice for law enforcement because it could fire the .38 Spl. which the majority of law enforcement agencies used in the U.S. and also the more powerful .357. It was also easier to carry a K frame sized gun than an N frame so the .357 was the main choice. In a variety of loads with both 125 gr. and 158 gr. bullets is was a useful law enforcement round. Ammo companies worked hard to produce good bullets for this round as it was popular both for hunting game and for leo work. So better bullet6s were available for it on the commercial market. This things are what what explain it's success.

But there are no reliable sources to indicate that some load of the .357 Magnum is a better stopper than some load of the .45 acp or the 9mm+P or the 40S&W, etc., etc.

Temporary wound cavities from from some fast loads from the .357 Magnum no more explains the "success" of the .357 Magnum than does the fact that when a cop shoots you, you may tend to stop sooner than if someone else shoots you.

But of course the temporary wound cavity makes a difference. Fackler bent the stick too much on this point. He ruled the temoprary trauma out almost entirely. It matters though because it hurts like the be-jasus and aids in shock. But these two points (pain and temporary trauma) cannot be reliably counted on because they vary so much from incident to incident and person to person. Fackler was correct in pointing out that shot placement (permanent wound channel) is what can be counted on.

Dave read some books will ya and try to retain what you are learning. Go do some shooting as well.

tipoc
 
Another history lesson from an old guy

When I was a boy, we didn't have cavities! And we liked it!

Sorry, where was I?

In 1974 or so, the Federal Government "Law Enforcement Assistance Administration" (LEAA) did a study on stopping power in handguns. One can find the full report somewhere, I'm sure. It is interesting reading for a technical mind and somewhat soporific regardless.

That report cites the considered opinions of a number of emergency room doctors and trauma specialists as believing the most "incapacitation" (their word) resulted from a 'maximum temporary cavity' wound at about one inch inside the body.

I find that questionable, as a brick at serious velocity will incapacitate the snot out of most folks without any internal cavity. However, I'm not inclined to completely disregard the opinion of those who work on such things for a living. Therefore, I think perhaps a serious distortion (rather than cavity, which a brick or bowling ball would do) might be the ticket.

In the meanwhile, I will continue to bet on heavy bullets of large caliber. You are all big kids, so do what you want.
 
How relevant is the temporary cavity caused by pistol rounds in disabling a target?
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If it is irrelevant, what explains the .357 magnums success?
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I fail to see what one has to due with the other.

What explains the .44 magnums success?

BTW, whats your target? Paper? It comes already disabled. Animals, people?
 
Mavracer,

From the 2nd report you posted:

Links between traumatic brain injury and the
ballistic pressure wave suggest that brain injury
begins to be possible for pressures above 500
PSI applied inside the chest and brain injury
becomes probable with 1000 PSI [COC07b].
These are probably reasonable estimates for
the pressures associated with incapacitation.

.....

Fragmenting bullets produce greater pressure
magnitude than non-fragmenting bullets. Bullets
penetrating 10-12" produce more pressure than
bullets penetrating 14" or more. For example, a
bullet which does not fragment and penetrates
14" needs over 700 ft-lbs of energy to produce
1000 PSI. In contrast, a bullet which fragments
and penetrates 12" needs just under 450 ft-lbs
of energy to produce 1000 PSI.
....

XI. Conclusion and Limits of Interpretation
The scientific foundation for ballistic pressure
wave contributions to bullet effectiveness does
not suggest that the pressure wave is the only
contributor to incapacitation. The permanent
cavity also plays an important role. The
relative importance of these mechanisms is a
matter for additional research.

One should not be overly impressed by the
propensity for shallow penetrating loads to
produce larger pressure waves. Selection
criteria should first determine the required
penetration depth for the given risk
assessment and application, and only use
pressure wave magnitude as a selection
criterion for loads meeting minimum
penetration requirements.

My take:
Based on the information presented in the second
paper, the set the threshold up at 700 ft-lb for
non-fragmenting bullets that can penetrate to 14+".
Fragmenting bullets that penetrate 12+" need only
450ft-lb. However, most SD bullets are expanding
hollow points that are engineered to retain the
maximum weight and specifically not fragment, the 700
number looks more applicable as a threshold where
temporary wound cavity starts to make a difference.

In figure 3, they show the probability of rapid
incapacitation vs pressure wave psi. You don't get to
95% until 1500 psi. For 14" penetrating non-fragmenting
bullets that's about 1000 to 1050 ft-lb of energy.
(From extrapolating the information in fig 4). I chose
p=0.95 because with statistics you typically want to raise
that up as high as practical. Even then, you don't know
what special factors have been left out of the data set
that would lower the value of p (probability of rapid
incapacitation). Angry, drugged up, very large, very
mean, etc. It DOES make a difference if the data set is
for 145 pound nerds or 250 pound crack smoking ex-cons
that think you were messing with their wives...

So, I'll respectfully stick with my original numbers and restate
that's it's just my opinion --> don't ask for facts.

jb
 
articles

I read one of those articles. They review evidence supporting high velocity pressures waves from missiles impacting the chest causing traumatic brain injury. Then in their case review used as an example they use a case where the individual was shot in the face with the bullet loding just lateral to the second cranial vertebra. So, if you're shot in the head you might get a TBI? I would be more impressed if they used cases where individuals were hit in the thorax who later started to exibted symptoms consistent with TBI. Maybe there is something to the science, but I am not floored by what I just read. And only some of those publications seem to be published in peer reviewed journals, others appear to be white papers.
 
Not really.. the only effect correlated with the temp cavity is the force of felt hit. Which.. for just about any handgun.. is negligent. The "thud" or "punch" one feels when they are shot is a result of the bullet depositing energy into their flesh. Some of that energy is what causes a temporary cavity. That's all.

Nervous system won't shut down and organs won't explode. Flesh is extremely elastic.
 
If it is irrelevant, what explains the .357 magnums success?
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Velocity- feet per second. You statement does not make sense. 38spl and 357 magnum same size bullet:eek: Just travels at a higher rate of speed:cool:
 
A small person could be disabled with a "temporary cavity" from a handgun. A small or large person will be disabled from the hydrostatic shock (and cavity) of a high powered rifle.
No handgun is absolutely perfect in disabling with or without a "cavity" due to the low velocity of the bullet.
The high powered rifle whether FMJ or HP WILL cause extreme damage as long as the bullet is over 2000 fps.
 
Pythagorean, everything bit of information I have gleaned from medical examinations of bullet wounds contradicts most of what you said.

1)A small person could be disabled from the temporary cavity from a handgun.

What makes you think this? The size of the person isn't quite as important as you think, because a large man has a heart, lungs, spine, and brain in the same spots as a small person. The temporary cavity only causes great damage when it affects tissue which isn't elastic.. like the liver (in which case it tears and will cause death.. just not in a timely manner).

2)Hydrostatic Shock kills everyone.

I'm regretful because I didn't bookmark the page, but it was an in-depth study about "hydrostatic shock." The conclusion was that no round deposits enough energy to wreck the nervous system or shut down the brain upon impact. The instant drops only occur from spine shots, brain shots, or if the person being shot has the deeply ingrained notion that what you're "supposed" to do when shot is fall down.

3)FMJ or HP will cause extreme damage if over 2000 fps. Where did you get that number?? My understanding is that most FMJ bullets don't fragment unless traveling at least 2600 fps (more accurately 2700 fps). If a FMJ doesn't yaw or fragment, it doesn't matter how fast it's going it will only leave it's size hole in the person. HP's from a rifle are a different story.. hey pretty much tear **** up
 
The temporary cavity only causes great damage when it affects tissue which isn't elastic.. like the liver
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Are you familiar with the diaphragm? This thin sheet of tissue is so delicate it can be torn with the fingers, rupture it and you can't breath.
How about a lung - pick up a lung from the next deer you shoot and you'll find it can also be torn with the fingers. Rupture a lung and you get heavy bleeding as well as breathing issues. Liver - same, same.

What you see as a temporary cavity in gelatin translates to real damage in real tissue.

If you don't believe it, shoot a melon with a handgun - wrap the melon in tape if you like - and see if the skin and tape several inches from the bullet trajectory don't rupture. Many or your internal organs are not nearly as tough as the skin/tape wrapped around that melon.
 
kingdom animalia

animals do not have cell walls. we have membranes and an extrecellular matrix made of collagen and elastin. Elastin as the name suggests, is very flexible kind of elastic protein. Mellons are plants. Plant cell walls are made of cellulose; a rather rigid carbohydrate -- think tree bark. people are not mellons.

in gross anatomy our best tool for dissecting the human body was our hands. With the exception of bone and skin, most of the human body can be pulled apart with the bear hands. Apononeureses are also very tough, but all muscle is actually very friable.

As long as you miss the bronchial arteries, trauma to the lungs will mainly result in capillary hemorrhage. Will this kill a person, eventually, maybe. Most damaging will be the resultant collapsed lung, but since there is at least one hole to the outside this will likely not result in a tension pneumothorax which could kill a person in minutes to hours.

A bullet to a mellon -- ala R Lee Ermie -- probably most closely resembles a head shot. Yes nervous tissue is very delicate and a temporary cavity would be devastating. So will the piece of metal traveling through said delicate tissue at 1200 fps. The massive hemorrhage in the confined space of the skull -- assuming the opposite side of the head didin't explode -- will result in increased intracranial pressure and herniation of the brain stem through the foramen magnum. The brain doesn't like being squeezed like toothpase out of a tube and this is not compatible with living.
 
Temporary cavity can be significant, but it depends on a lot of factors. A shot through a lung, for example, would not likely show great damage from temporary cavitation because the lungs are primarily gas-filled organs. Temporary cavitation injures by displacing parts of the body beyond their elastic limit and therefore damaging them. Gas is much more compressable than fluid or solid so it would take an enormous amount of temporary cavitation to displace enough gas to cause significant damage to a lung.

A shot through the heart, however, could be quite different. The chambers of the heart fill with fluid (blood) which is not nearly as compressable as gas. Also, cardiac muscle is much more rigid and resistant to stretching than lung tissue. The temporary cavitation of a shot through a blood-filled heart chamber could easily displace fluid beyond the dimensional limits of the chamber. The displaced fluid will flow through the path of least resistance and would most likely tear the heart valves, chordae tendinae, or both. This would cause profuse backflow and, in turn, greatly reduce stroke volume which would in turn cause a very rapid drop in blood pressure and thusly incapacitation.

Basically, I look at temporary cavitation like this: it is helpful, but secondary to placement and penetration. Temporary cavitation does little good if it happens at such shallow depths that the more delicate organs of the body remain unaffected. Likewise, temporary cavitation is basically useless if the recoil of the cartridge is so severe that the vital areas of the body cannot be reliably hit by the shooter.
 
Are you familiar with the diaphragm? This thin sheet of tissue is so delicate it can be torn with the fingers, rupture it and you can't breath.
How about a lung - pick up a lung from the next deer you shoot and you'll find it can also be torn with the fingers. Rupture a lung and you get heavy bleeding as well as breathing issues. Liver - same, same
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Having had the "pleasure" of treating a few gun shot wounds to the chest, I am amazed at how many of them can be treated with a chest tube and are discharged a few days later. While you can get some pulmonary contusion, that isn't where the bleeding comes from. You have to hit one of the pulmonary branch vessels to get significant/rapid bleeding. The air leaking from the lung parenchyma and the resulting pneumothorax, not the bleeding, causes death.

While solid organs like the liver are impact sensitive, the injury is going to be fairly superficial. I have only seen one liver gun shot wound that resulted in rapid death...it was a shotgun from near contact distance and I could see the liver remnants through the abdominal wound.

People in car accidents who die from liver/spleen injury don't do so in a rapid fashion. Moreover, many of these injuries are being treated conservatively and without intervention.

Diaphragmatic injury is one of the most missed missed traumatic injuries. People had difficulty breathing with them, but they don't die unless the injury is huge. A person just needs to create some negative inspiratory force in order to breath. Even with a leak, a person can still breath. Keep in mind that the diaphragm is in constant movement and, well, moves and has elasticity. Sure you can poke your finger through it, but it is has resistance to injury along its axis of motion.
 
For people shooting at perps to save their own lives, I'm wondering how much of this is of practical value. In the local cases I've cited, people were shot, they were stopped, and they died shortly.

The only thing I take from all of this is that you never know how a gunshot would will result, and if you're shooting to avoid being killed, keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. That's about it. Everything else is interesting, but of no practical application.
 
I love polls like this. After all there have been many very well researched papers on the issue which come to different conclusions. Handgun rounds are NOT one shot stoppers like TV or the movies. Shot placement is the issue. I may start a poll on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
 
I was given the answer to that question. "42"
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Maromero wins.

On the actual subject of the thread ... any person with sense knows that shot placement trumps all, despite the tired "well, why don't you carry a .22 then" cliche that is generally the response to that statement. I think some people very much have the tendency to over-think their defensive calibers far more than they ought to. Here be the rules of not-arguing-about-silly-things-like-temporary-cavities.

1: No handgun is a 100% sure man stopper. Your .50 Deagle loaded with +P+ HP's in a 40-round mag does not guarantee a one-shot-drop, ever.

2: The fact that your handgun may not stop a bg with a single shot is irrelevant. This is why handguns are made to fire multiple rounds. It is suggested, in a situation requiring self-defense in accordance with the law, that you fire once, observe the effect on said bg, and then continue firing until the desired effect (cessation of threat to self) is effected.

3: The likelihood of a bg continuing to come after you after 3-4 well-placed torso/head shots is so incredibly low as to be functionally irrelevant.

4: Therefore, it is silly to spend hours trying to squeeze every last ounce of power out of your handgun, and arguing about which techniques are the best for that purpose, or whether rounds that create larger 'temporary cavities' are better than rounds that create smaller ones. You are not trying to kill a rhinoceros.

*rant off*
 
FGF
The fact that your handgun may not stop a bg with a single shot is irrelevant.
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I respectfully disagree. If a .44 Mag, 41 Mag, 10mm or .357 Mag wont guarantee a one shot stop (possibly requiring multiple shots), muzzle flash (or lack there of) and quickness or recovery time to target is very important. And here in these attributes is where the .327 Fed Mag, .38 Spl., .44 Spl and .45 acp truly shine.

Mis dos centavos.

Edited to add the 9mm.
 
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