Does the temporary cavity really matter?

Does the temporary cavity really matter?

  • yes

    Votes: 40 59.7%
  • no

    Votes: 27 40.3%

  • Total voters
    67
  • Poll closed .

Super-Dave

New member
How relevant is the temporary cavity caused by pistol rounds in disabling a target?

Obviously the larger the energy the larger the temporary cavity.

Does it really make a difference?
 
Obviously the larger the energy the larger the temporary cavity.

There are many factors that can effect the size of the temporary cavity, not just velocity. Nothing in the fishing contest is going to end up with an obvious answer.
 
What I've read of Fackler -- just dabled not an expert -- says no, the temporary cavity isn't that important, since it doesn't contribute much to blood loss, hypovolemic shock, and loss of conciousness. If the temporary cavity includes a relatively hard and brittle organ such as the spleen or liver, then it can lead to a larger permanent cavity.
 
Hit your target with properly placed shot. IMHO people put way too much concern on their handgun ballistics. Your shooting bullets not throwing rocks! I don't think too many folks will have the "where with all" to care about it. The medics/coroner won't either. I have a buddy who's father was killed with a .22 revolver. (It wasn't instant but he still died.) Although, I would choose a .22 for SD given a choice in the matter.

It's not like freeze-tag, were the minute you get touched you must stop completely. People usually do not die instantly in most handgun shooting incidents. (How many if you hunters have had to track a 120lb deer, you shot with a RIFLE for at least 20 yards.) The BG will probably try to get away or shoot back. All this talk about one shot stopping it all with an instant death, is from my research alot of misinformation.

Pack a .380 or larger with good modern HP ammo and go about your day.
 
How relevant is the temporary cavity caused by pistol rounds in disabling a target?

that depends alot on exacticly where/what the bullet hits.

Does it really make a difference?
sure it makes some difference.
IMHO under 300 ft lbs there is little to no effect, from 300 to about 500 real damage from temp cavity starts to have some effect but can't be counted on, Mostly because in order to get a large temp cavity you use too much energy and give up penatration. From 500 to about 700you start having enough energy to compleatly penatrate and have a temp cavity that might make a diffrence in incapasitation. Above 700 ft lbs temporary cavitation can and usually does cause extra damage and bleeding that can lead to faster incapasitation.
 
The handgun is a last defense in the first place. Although a .357 SJHP can do a lot of damage it does not compare with a 5.56 or 7.62 NATO rifle by any measure of measure.
 
You can get lost and wander endlessly trying to debate and argue about this subject.

The bottom line often heard is that it seems to have an observable effect in gel blocks, but whether or not it's even going to occur, let alone have an appreciable or consistent effect inside a living threat target/medium ... at the velocities obtained with the common defensive handgun cartridges ... is up for more than a little debate.

Bullets traveling at rifle velocities seem to result in quite a lot of satisfactory anecdotal observations from hunters (with the exception of when they don't).

The muscular-skeletal structure of people, with the various tissues, organs & structures, combined with the angle of presentation and any intervening limbs, would seem to provide a degree of unpredictability when it comes to defensive shootings and placing excessive emphasis on the TC as a wounding/incapacitation factor.

Something else that's sometimes discussed is the 'threshold' velocity seemingly required, and any attendant higher measurable amount of recoil forces produced as a by product of developing that increased velocity, which may affect the shooter and therefore have an adverse influence on the practical accuracy obtained in shooting handguns ... especially if both the attacker/threat and the victim are in erratic motion during the dynamic, chaotic, rapidly changing and evolving encounter.

There are groups of people who fancy themselves as either proponents or detractors of the TC theory. I can't see the need to 'take sides' in this theoretical debate at this time.

Personally, I'd rather spend my time and effort working to develop, improve and refine my individual knowledge, skill sets, techniques, mindset and physical fitness ... using whichever of the common defensive handgun/caliber/ammunition combinations I may have at my disposal at any given time ... instead of becoming involved in theoretical debates.

Misses matter, and not in a good way.

Perforations (also called over-penetrations) matter, and not in a good way.

Peripheral hits on anatomical areas which are shallow and allow perforations aren't often considered helpful or 'immediately effective'.

The psychological reasons for an attacker to stop their threatening actions when shot are not clearly understood or predictable. Factor in some drug/chemical influence and it's even murkier.

Handguns are still just handguns, regardless of an individual's enthusiasm for any particular make/model/caliber or ammunition design.

Even high powered rifle rounds are known to fail to provide an "instant stop", so what does that tell you about relatively (by comparison) low-powered handgun ammunition?
 
1. How relevant is it in disabling a target? You ask this without providing any specifics whatsoever and expect an answer.

2. Energy is not the only factor at work when determining temporary cavity.

3. Does it really make a difference? Not the same as the first question at all, and again you ask this with no parameters and expect some sort definitive answer.
 
Of course it matters.

The real question is how much and how often it matters.

Does it have a significant effect? Sometimes. Some organs don't stretch without tearing.

Does it provide a reliable effect? Since most of the body is quite elastic it's hard to make a case for it being a reliable effect, especially in typical handgun self-defense calibers.
 
The handgun is a last defense in the first place. Although a .357 SJHP can do a lot of damage it does not compare with a 5.56 or 7.62 NATO rifle by any measure of measure.

I love this useless cliche. The handgun is your LAST defense, like somehow you have a 5.56 or a 7.62 NATO on your other hip. The fact is, it is likely to be your ONLY defense so talking about the effectiveness of your ammo is a lot more relevant than comparing to the rifle or shotgun you don't have with you.
 
It's like real estate. Three things matter: Location, location, location.

You know how the Bible is old, but people still read it? You know how the U.S. Constitution is old, but [at least some] people still read it?

Here's an article that's not even as old as that! Let me know what you think after reading it: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
 
It is an intresting question worthy of an educated answer which I don't have. Most important is to practice and hit what you aim at consistently.
 
It is not important with handguns because they do not have the velocity or power to stretch most areas of the body beyond their elastic limits. Centerfire rifles on the other hand can and do. So handguns no, centerfire rifles yes.
 
I'm sure it does matter, at least most of the time.

There are people who hunt deer with common defense loads in .357, .45acp, etc. I haven't done or seen this enough to have more than an anecdotal opinion, but in my (limited) experience hollowpoints bring them down far more quickly than FMJ's.

It might make an interesting thread in the hunting forum if you could get enough actual experiences (vs opinions) to form a conclusion.

I've taken a deer with a .45acp HP, one shot high in the lungs (missed the heart) and it went down right there. A friend shot one from the front with a .45acp HP and it turned and went down within a couple of yards. I've seen both 9mm and .45acp FMJ's fail miserably. However, again, that's not enough events to be more than anecdotal, and of course a deer is not a human...
 
IMHO under 300 ft lbs there is little to no effect, from 300 to about 500 real damage from temp cavity starts to have some effect but can't be counted on, Mostly because in order to get a large temp cavity you use too much energy and give up penatration. From 500 to about 700you start having enough energy to compleatly penatrate and have a temp cavity that might make a diffrence in incapasitation. Above 700 ft lbs temporary cavitation can and usually does cause extra damage and bleeding that can lead to faster incapasitation.

I pretty much agree with you, but would up the numbers some. Probably would nearly double your numbers. You HAVE to hit "the important stuff" below 700ft-lb, as incapacitation is nearly 100% about bullet diameter, penetration depth and what the bullet actually hit and physically damaged. Get above 1500 to 2000 and it's a sure helper.

Because the question is about handguns, and the vast majority of rounds don't make 700 ft-lb --> it's not important. If you are packing a super duper dirty harry load, that nearly kills the shooter from the recoil and knocks down trees with the muzzle blast, then yeah.

This is all opinion so don't even ask for proof!:p

jb
 
This is all opinion so don't even ask for proof!
nobody knows how their gunfight is goin to go so it's all just BS'n anyway LOL
I actually have read quit a bit on the subject here
http://www.ballisticstestinggroup.org/
here is the paper on handguns
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0803/0803.3053.pdf
I have personaly discussed this as Dr Courtney is a THR member and I belive his work definatly proves that damage from temporary cavity starts to occour reliably at around 500ft lbs.
 
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