Does the 40 S&W have an advantage over 9mm for CCW?
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carguychris
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I like to tell people that if they want one-shot knock-down power that's a truly significant improvement over a 9mm, they need a different "forty"- a 40mm Bofors gun.
Not only will it stop ANY human assailant with a single shot, it's also effective against lightly-armored vehicles and watercraft inside ~1,200yds, and against low-and-slow flying aircraft.
Concealability and licensing can be a problem, however.
^^ This.
Stephanie B
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I'm going to go with the "get what you can conceal and shoot good enough" line of opinion over the "which caliber is best" debate.
I have a Taurus 605 snubbie, loaded with .38 +P semi-wadcutters. That goes with me far more often than my 1911. The snubbie is lighter and less bulkier, making it easier to carry and conceal. Sure, the 1911 holds 9 rounds (8+1) of .45 over the snubbie's five rounds. The difference in weight is close to a pound and that's not a trivial difference.
Better the gun you can take with you over the gun that you'll leave at home. even a .25 is better than nothing.
I have a Taurus 605 snubbie, loaded with .38 +P semi-wadcutters. That goes with me far more often than my 1911. The snubbie is lighter and less bulkier, making it easier to carry and conceal. Sure, the 1911 holds 9 rounds (8+1) of .45 over the snubbie's five rounds. The difference in weight is close to a pound and that's not a trivial difference.
Better the gun you can take with you over the gun that you'll leave at home. even a .25 is better than nothing.
The analogy is a bad comparison. We are not talking blunt force, but penetrating trauma. There is a difference. It doesn't quite work that way, and even if it did, a better, more realistic analogy would be a slow punch and a slightly faster punch, but still slow. 50-100 fpe difference is not going to be that extreme here, as opposed to a pistol vs. rifle, where there may be 500-1000 fpe difference.
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I never quoted you word-for-word, and never said anything to that effect. The summary of your post seems to suggest that your experience and personal testing bring you to the conclusion that the .40 is significantly better. I was just stating how it would be very odd, as that goes against what modern medicine and ballistics testing shows. Shooting a water jug or wet pack doesn't really compare to a complex human body, as you know. See my highlights in red, and you will see where I might have been coming from.
As a note, I did see plainly where you said to carry what you shoot best, and shot placement counts. Sorry for not acknowledging it.
More important than the caliber is the platform you choose ...which translates into how well it fits your hands, the controls, etc ...that suit you the best.
Having said that ...I have identical platforms ( like a Sig 239 / a Sig 226 and a variety of 1911's ) in 9mm and .40S&W...and I shoot them both equally well / but I'm a little more comfortable carrying the .40S&W ( if I don't want to carry a 1911 in .45 acp )...but maybe its my age, but I'll always carry a 1911 in .45acp all things being equal / but I don't fee unsafe, if I were carrying a 4" 1911 in 9mm either - especially with 147gr Hydra Shok ammo in it.
There is no wrong or right answer in your question ...picking the right gun or platform for you - is however a really big deal ! What suits me, isn't important ...try a lot of guns before you buy !
My attitude is 8 rds is plenty for "Defense" ....I'm not going to a "gunfight" ....I just need to stay out of one....and practice, practice, practice....( which I do about twice a week ) - just in case / in the one in a trillion chance I'll ever need a gun / but I like to shoot - so I do !
Having said that ...I have identical platforms ( like a Sig 239 / a Sig 226 and a variety of 1911's ) in 9mm and .40S&W...and I shoot them both equally well / but I'm a little more comfortable carrying the .40S&W ( if I don't want to carry a 1911 in .45 acp )...but maybe its my age, but I'll always carry a 1911 in .45acp all things being equal / but I don't fee unsafe, if I were carrying a 4" 1911 in 9mm either - especially with 147gr Hydra Shok ammo in it.
There is no wrong or right answer in your question ...picking the right gun or platform for you - is however a really big deal ! What suits me, isn't important ...try a lot of guns before you buy !
My attitude is 8 rds is plenty for "Defense" ....I'm not going to a "gunfight" ....I just need to stay out of one....and practice, practice, practice....( which I do about twice a week ) - just in case / in the one in a trillion chance I'll ever need a gun / but I like to shoot - so I do !
The 40S&W is a fine self defense round, but so is the 9mm. Lately some in LEO have given the 9mm a second look because the 40S&W wasn't knocking people out of their shoes as seen in the movies. In Boston and the Boston suburbs there have been numerous, numerous officer involved shootings with the 40S&W where the BG was not killed and often not stopped, (usually picked up an ran but at least he stopped fighting.) I will tell you that in most if not all of these shootings is was due to where the bullet hit the bad guy, not a failure of the bullet. The 9mm has a lack of respect due in a large part to the old bullet technology where the 115 grain bullets expanded properly but suffered from inadequate penetration and the 147 grain bullets wouldn't expand and over penetrated. The current rounds; SXT, HST, GDHP... seem to do very well in the 124-147 grain weights. The advantage of the 9mm over the 40S&W is lower recoil and faster follow up shots, less expense to practice with (more practice time,) and less muzzle report to distract the shooter. If these advantages don't matter to you then go with the 40S&W, (an example would be a gun which you fire once a year and keep in the nightstand.) Just my 2 cents, I usually carry a 357 sig.
Let me just reiterate that however you put it, the kinetic energy of a round at handgun velocities, by itself, is practically meaningless. Kinetic energy is only important in that it is a factor in making sure there is adequate penetration and that hollow points will expand. Other factors play into this. If "secondary wounding effect" means "hydrostatic shock," count me as one of those who believe this is a non-factor at handgun velocities. I'm not saying it can't or won't happen, just that it happens infrequently enough that you shouldn't even factor it in. Rifle velocities, yes. Handgun velocities, no.
The reason that heavy bullets at slow or moderate velocities work is that they result in much greater momentum which helps in penetration, especially if it meets tougher tissue or even bone. That's why heavier bullets generally fair better through auto glass and other barriers. In recent years, bullet design has vastly improved the ability of the medium weight bullets to maintain integrity and penetrate through barriers. Still, you won't find any light bullets that will do this at even high handgun velocities.
The other advantage of the larger caliber bullet, even if slower, is they create bigger holes if they don't expand. Again, better bullet design in recent years has greatly improved reliability of expansion.
I'll just conclude with what I said earlier. If you use quality defensive ammo in either a .45 acp, 9mm, or .40 SW and shoot straight, you probably won't see a huge difference in results.
The reason that heavy bullets at slow or moderate velocities work is that they result in much greater momentum which helps in penetration, especially if it meets tougher tissue or even bone. That's why heavier bullets generally fair better through auto glass and other barriers. In recent years, bullet design has vastly improved the ability of the medium weight bullets to maintain integrity and penetrate through barriers. Still, you won't find any light bullets that will do this at even high handgun velocities.
The other advantage of the larger caliber bullet, even if slower, is they create bigger holes if they don't expand. Again, better bullet design in recent years has greatly improved reliability of expansion.
I'll just conclude with what I said earlier. If you use quality defensive ammo in either a .45 acp, 9mm, or .40 SW and shoot straight, you probably won't see a huge difference in results.
The other thing to consider is barrel length. The 40S&W may have an inherent lead with shorter barrels due to the increased bore size. I'm not current in barrel length and velocity for shorty guns. Remember some of the 38spl data twenty years ago was based on 4 inch barrels, not the 2inch most people carried them in. A good example of this is the 125 grain 38spl +P. which did pretty good in a 4inch gun but the 158 grain FBI load did better in 2 and 3 inch guns.
secret_agent_man
Moderator
Didn't this load have some expansion problems fired through heavy clothing from a two inch barrel? Hence, development of the Speer 135 grain Gold Dot. Be interesting to find out just what round NYPD was using it's two inch backup guns before it asked Speer to come up with something "that works".
orionengnr
New member
See post #15. It is one of Sturme's finest...and he has no shortage of astute observations.
On another note:
There...fixed it for you.
On another note:
There...fixed it for you.
Let me fix it even more...
I see a lot of die-hard .40 fans running to pet and stroke their guns because they can't take the truth.
And on a serious note, you're correct. It's a personal choice, and I don't really believe the .40 is a bad decision. Some folks just want the extra peace of mind.
I carry a 9mm as my primary CCW gun. I like knowing I have more ammo available before I need to do a mag change. Also weight and comfort of wearing the side arm all day long will play a factor in what piece you are going to be using. For choice of pistols avail, the 9mm can't be beat.
I have my .40 loaded with 140gr Cor-Bon DPX, which thoretically gets 1200fps out of a 4" barrel, and over 12" penetration in gelatin.
In my 9mm, the Cor-Bon DPX 115gr at 1250fps.
Energy advantage, .40. Not by a huge amount, but definitely there. Momentum advantage is definitely in favor of the .40.
Both my normal .40 and my normal 9mm are Beretta PX4's, but the .40 is the full-size and the 9mm is the compact, so it's hard to make a direct recoil comparison. They feel about the same as far as recoil goes, but the .40 pistol is heavier, longer, and has a longer grip.
Since they are different sizes, the 9mm only enjoys a 1 round advantage; if they were both full-size, the 9mm would have a 3 round capacity advantage.
I don't think I'd like a sub-compact .40 all that much.
Here's the thing, though, for people who have to choose one or the other: 9mm ammo costs less, whether factory or reloaded. If budget is a concern, you can get a lot more practice rounds from your ammo dollars in the 9mm; combined with lower recoil (assuming equivalent sized guns), this means you can realistically get in a lot more practice with the 9mm, and shot placement is king.
In my 9mm, the Cor-Bon DPX 115gr at 1250fps.
Energy advantage, .40. Not by a huge amount, but definitely there. Momentum advantage is definitely in favor of the .40.
Both my normal .40 and my normal 9mm are Beretta PX4's, but the .40 is the full-size and the 9mm is the compact, so it's hard to make a direct recoil comparison. They feel about the same as far as recoil goes, but the .40 pistol is heavier, longer, and has a longer grip.
Since they are different sizes, the 9mm only enjoys a 1 round advantage; if they were both full-size, the 9mm would have a 3 round capacity advantage.
I don't think I'd like a sub-compact .40 all that much.
Here's the thing, though, for people who have to choose one or the other: 9mm ammo costs less, whether factory or reloaded. If budget is a concern, you can get a lot more practice rounds from your ammo dollars in the 9mm; combined with lower recoil (assuming equivalent sized guns), this means you can realistically get in a lot more practice with the 9mm, and shot placement is king.
zombieslayer
New member
I have man hands and dont notice the recoil difference. So .40 for me anyday.
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