Does the 40 S&W have an advantage over 9mm for CCW?

[secret_agent_man]

There is a reason why most police forces don't arm their officers with 9mm in cold climates as FBI shooting statistics show that the standard load 9mm isn't as effective as the 40s&w or 45acp when shot through heavy clothing.

It remains to be seen if Hornady has solved the penetration of winter clothing problem with Critical Defense ammunition.

The problem with the 9mm round is that it can't go fast enough, no matter what the bullet weight is. The 357 SIG goes overboard in attempting to replicate the 357 MAG revolver round. A slight downloading of the former in it's various forms might produce an acceptable compromise for civilian self defense carry that would outdo the nine.

This has been hinted at with the 9BPLE round, 115 grains at 1300 fps, which is overloaded to +P+ , if there is such a thing.

 

[microman]

So again, in a SD/CCW application does a 40S&W offer a significant advantage over a 9mm?

Minus the extra rounds in the magazine the .40 S&W has a
lot more energy going for it. I think 9mm is a great round with
proper ammunition, however I think the .40 can be even better
with the right SD load.

 

[KyJim]

I don't think anyone can argue the .40 SW dumps more energy than the 9mm but that doesn't mean very much in handguns. The .40 SW may create a bigger hole. I say "may" because the use of quality hollow points closes the gap quite a bit.

I like carrying .45 acp but when I don't, I'm perfectly happy with the 9mm. More rounds and easier to control. So long as you shoot straight and use quality defense ammo, I doubt you'll see much difference in results in .40 SW and 9mm.

Even a near miss with a .40 will cause the target to turn into a puddle of goo.

I thought that only the "mighty .45 acp" did this. That's why I carry it.

 

[Proud Poppa]

Ok, here’s a shot in the dark. Please feel free to critique my theory...

I’ve heard that some of the hype behind the 45 ACP is that a large slow-moving bullet will cause more damage than a smaller faster bullet, as it drags the flesh along as it slowly passes through. While I don’t quite agree with the latter part of that statement, I could see that in theory, a larger bullet traveling at a slower speed would allow for a greater energy deposition than a smaller bullet traveling at a faster speed.

Additionally, for the most part a 45 carries more energy than a 9mm therefore more energy can be transferred onto the target. The caliber in question is a 40 S&W. It carries a lighter bullet faster than a 45 but a heavier bullet slower than a 9mm. In most brands of ammo a 40 S&W has more energy than both the 9mm and 45ACP. With the increase in kinetic energy and a good expanding JHP, it seems to make sense that more energy would get dumped on target with a 40 S&W.

Everyone knows that the 45 ACP is a proven “man stopper” however I have heard that a 357 Magnum eclipses the 45ACP. The only real advantage that I can see that the 357 Magnum has over the 45 ACP is more kinetic energy; over 700 ft*lbs in 357 Magnum versus 500 – 600 ft*lbs in 45 ACP. The bullet diameter in 357 Mag is the same size as the 9mm, so why the higher ratings for being a better man stopper? Kinetic energy?

I could be completely wrong! lol.

 

[daliff89]

the .40 S&W is a solution to a non-existent problem.

ding ding ding.

the .40 performs well, it's a good round, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily 'better' than anything....

it's completely pointless in my eyes, as i've stated more than once

yes, it's got more power than a 9, but if you're worried about stopping power, why would you get something with less stopping power than a more readily available round in .45?

yes, it's got less recoil than a .45, but if you're worried about follow-up shots, why would you get something with more recoil than a more readily available round in 9mm?

honestly, it makes no sense for a civilian to carry a .40 IMO

 

[jimbob86]

I've got a different take: I handload, therefore the 9mm is superior to the .40 S&W, because......

1) More room for error. .40 S&W is a pretty high pressure cartridge, with a pretty small case capacity .... I know of zero guys that have blown up their 9mm's ..... and two that have sent their .40's to Splodeyville ..... and I don't know that many shooters.

2) 9mm bullets are cheaper than .40 bullets ..... this is also one of the two reasons that I don't shoot a whole lot of .45 ACP anymore....... it costs as much to reload 9mm now as it did .45 ACP when I started back in the 90's.....

Reloading allows me to shoot more ...... and I would not reload .40 S&W ....

....advantage 9mm.

3) As for the .40 having "more power" ..... aye, it does. Substantially more? Consider this: In 95% of DGU's, no shots are fired, as no one wants to be shot with anything ....... of the remaining 5%, most of the time, nobody is hit....... Of the last 1-2%, where someone is hit: pretty much all handguns are underpowered, nobody is going to notice whether they were shot by a 9 or a .40 or a .38 or whatever ...... Is it more alarming to be shot by a particular pistol caliber? I think the the recipient of a pentrating wound and hundreds of foot/pounds of energy will not be terribly concerned with what diameter the bulllet was, but rather the fact that he has been shot at all, and is bleeding/it is hard to breathe.........

Top that off with the extreme unlikelyhood of ever even having to use a gun in self defense (provided you don't play stupid games with stupid people!) ..... the odds of there being enough of a difference between the terminal effects of a 9 and a .40 ..... that a second bullet would not have solved anyway ("If he's worth shooting once, he's worth shooting twice!") ..... those odds are somewhat less than the chance of being hit with falling space junk. It's a free county: wear a helmet if you like. ..... Me, I'll pack my 9.

 

[.357SIG]

Something to consider for all the, "quicker doubletaps with 9mm" comments. While it'r true that the std 9mm has less recoil than the 40s&w, that isn't what most defensive handguns are loaded with. The +P and +P+ loads that most 9mm owners are so fond of have significantly higher recoil than standard 9mm loads.

Therefore, the recoil difference between 9 and 40 with what most actually use is much, much less. The fact is that 40cal 180grn Speer Gold Dots don't produce much added recoil at all over the much smaller and lighter 124grn +P+ loads while they generate high energies and larger wounds. Further, larger, heavier bullets penetrate better than lighter, smaller ones.

Some mistakenly claim that the 40 cal has more recoil because it's a higher pressure round. This is simply not true as the standard 9mm has a SAAMI spec of 35,000psi the same as the 40 cal's 35,000psi. Further, the +p SAAMI spec of 38,500psi puts it higher than the 10mm's 37,500psi spec while the +P+ loads are up at 357sig pressures.

There is a reason why most police forces don't arm their officers with 9mm in cold climates as FBI shooting statistics show that the standard load 9mm isn't as effective as the 40s&w or 45acp when shot through heavy clothing.

The adage, "shoot the largest caliber handgun you can use effectively" was, is, and will be true as long as handguns are in use, notwithstanding the claims of the 9mm crowd that their round is "just as good."

Where do you come up with this stuff? Seriously...

None of it is based off of fact, and if you claim it is, please cite a source.

 

[.357SIG]

I've added my responses in red. As always, take it for what it's worth and VERIFY it.

Ok, here’s a shot in the dark. Please feel free to critique my theory...

I’ve heard that some of the hype behind the 45 ACP is that a large slow-moving bullet will cause more damage than a smaller faster bullet, as it drags the flesh along as it slowly passes through. While I don’t quite agree with the latter part of that statement, I could see that in theory, a larger bullet traveling at a slower speed would allow for a greater energy deposition than a smaller bullet traveling at a faster speed.Not true. Velocity increase is proportional to increased damage (beyond the primary wound cavity). With low-to-medium velocity pistol bullets, this is moot. Velocity is what causes secondary wounding. Again, with low velocity rounds, the damage is done to mostly weak vascular tissue (capillaries, etc.). Diameter of the bullet will technically add to the permanent wound cavity, increasing damage, but often does not speed up incapacitation over a similarly-placed, but slightly smaller round. I am NOT speaking of a comparison of two very different rounds (.22 and .454, for example), but two similar rounds.

Additionally, for the most part a 45 carries more energy than a 9mm therefore more energy can be transferred onto the target. 9mm has all the energy you need to do anything to any part of the body, and the added energy is not much help.The caliber in question is a 40 S&W. It carries a lighter bullet faster than a 45 but a heavier bullet slower than a 9mm. In most brands of ammo a 40 S&W has more energy than both the 9mm and 45ACP. With the increase in kinetic energy and a good expanding JHP, it seems to make sense that more energy would get dumped on target with a 40 S&W.See above. Not enough difference in E transfer between the common SD rounds to make a difference.

Everyone knows that the 45 ACP is a proven “man stopper” however I have heard that a 357 Magnum eclipses the 45ACP. The only real advantage that I can see that the 357 Magnum has over the 45 ACP is more kinetic energy; over 700 ft*lbs in 357 Magnum versus 500 – 600 ft*lbs in 45 ACP. The bullet diameter in 357 Mag is the same size as the 9mm, so why the higher ratings for being a better man stopper? Kinetic energy?Most of it is due to grandpa's tall tales from the war. Most of the medical and scientific knowledge we have today disproves many of the myths surrounding the .45 and .357 Mag as defense rounds.

I could be completely wrong! lol.
Proud Poppa is offline Report Post

 

[.357SIG]

Then the FBI discovered some of their agents found the recoil of the full power 10mm to be a bit much. So they found themselves with a "10mm lite", or the .40 S&W. Once again everyone dumped their 10mm's and raced to snatch up all the .40's they could find. Since 10mm was a relatively new round, the race to ditch it darn near killed it... which is a shame, I do like the 10mm.

You forgot something...

They did not dump their 10mms and race to get .40s. They dumped their 10s and bought SIG P226 9mm pistols instead. They had those pistols for nearly a decade before going to the Glock 22 .40. I see people omit this fact almost every time they discuss the FBI and the '86 shootout/caliber change.

 

[.357SIG]

As a firefighter/emt I have actually seen the results of people shot with the .40 cal. (Its the favored police caliber for most of my local Law Enforcement agency's)
The results where impressive. I have also done some very informal testing of my own. Like shooting jugs of water and tightly bundled news paper. And everything I have seen is that yes the .40 does have a noticeable/significant advantige over the 9mm when it comes to "power".

I have seen the results of every major round from .22LR up to .44 Mag, both on the street and in the trauma room and OR. When it comes to comparing rounds of similar power, it is just about impossible to tell the difference in wounding. A surgeon isn't going to walk up to any case and instantly recognize the devastation of a .40 shot over that of a 9mm. Again, it is not something that looks significantly worse, shot-for-shot. I don't know what you have seen, but I have a hard time believing that you can tell a .40 wound from a 9mm. As for the testing, you can get similar results with most 9mm JHPs. Actual scientific testing puts them neck-and-neck in the race, and it would be odd that you do not see the same thing.

 

[Proud Poppa]

Thanks everyone for your input, it's greatly appreciated. I'm an old dog and yes the tales of the 357 Mag and 45 ACP are all I heard form my late father who served in WWII. I was dead set on anything less that a 40 caliber prior to this post.

My son however has been trying to convince me that the 9mm is a fine cartridge for CCW. Not that I didn't believe him, but I guess my stubborn nature wanted to hear it from some other folks. It's funny, I kinda remember him being like that when he was growing up and I would tell him something. Wonder where he got it from?

Thanks again gentlemen! I believe my purchase for CCW will be a 9mm.

 

[secret_agent_man]

9mm has all the energy you need to do anything to any part of the body, and the added energy is not much help

Get some guy to hit you in the shoulder with a slow punch. Now have the same guy throw the same punch on the other shoulder with all the speed he can. Note the difference in energy dump.

 

[Bernie Lomax]

So again, in a SD/CCW application does a 40S&W offer a significant advantage over a 9mm?

The .40 S&W has better stopping power than the 9mm, but less concealability. Built from currently available materials, ultra-slim pistols simply can't handle the higher energies of the .40 S&W. For example, I seriously doubt that a .40 S&W as compact as the Ruger LC9 might be in the offing.

.40 S&W = superior stopping power. 9mm = superior concealability. Pick your poison.

 

[Mello2u]

Bernie Lomax
The .40 S&W has better stopping power than the 9mm, but less concealability. Built from currently available materials, ultra-slim pistols simply can't handle the higher energies of the .40 S&W. For example, I seriously doubt that a .40 S&W as compact as the Ruger LC9 might be in the offing.

Ruger LC9
Barrel Length: 3.12"
Length: 6.00"
Width: 0.90"
Height: 4.50"
Weight: 17.10 oz.

Kahr PM9
Barrel Length: 3.0"
Length: 5.6"
Width: 1.1"
Slide Width: 0.90"
Height: 4.3"
Weight: 15.9 oz

Kahr PM40
Barrel Length: 3.0"
Length: 5.65"
Width: 1.1"
Slide Width: 0.94"
Height: 4.3"
Weight: 23.0 oz

The PM40 seems comparable to the LC9 in the parameters that make up volume.

 

[Father Time]

I don't know what you have seen, but I have a hard time believing that you can tell a .40 wound from a 9mm

I don't know where that is comming from. Because, I never said I could:

walk up to any case and instantly recognize the devastation of a .40 shot over that of a 9mm

What I said was I have been to shootings and the results where "impressive".
This wasn't comparing the .40 round to the 9mm or any other caliber. It was simply stating the results of the shootings I've been to.

My personal testing however has shown that there is a difference in preformance between the 9mm and the .40

The only reason I even mentioned the shootings I've been to was because they had some small bearing on the topic. Please don't read into them anything more than what I've said and please don't put words in my mouth.

 

[nate45]

Either one of them is fine for SD. As long as you shoot the pistol well and it functions properly, with quality SD ammo.

In fact all the service pistol calibers (.38 SP, 9MM, .357 Sig, .357 Mag, .40 S&W, .45 ACP) exhibit a very similar level of performance. Anyone claiming vast superiority of one over the other, knows not of which they speak.

 

[Bernie Lomax]

The PM40 seems comparable to the LC9 in the parameters that make up volume.

As far as concealment is concerned, width is the key. The LC9 has less width. Also, The LC9 has truncated edges, which also helps a lot with printing.

 

[Shane Tuttle]

Either one of them is fine for SD. As long as you shoot the pistol well and it functions properly, with quality SD ammo.

In fact all the service pistol calibers (.38 SP, 9MM, .357 Sig, .357 Mag, .40 S&W, .45 ACP) exhibit a very similar level of performance. Anyone claiming vast superiority of one over the other, knows not of which they speak.

THANK YOU, NATE!

Proud Pappa, if it were 15-20 years ago, I would have told you to shy away from 9mm a bit. With today's self defense ammo for all major pistol cartridges compared to yesteryear's, you should have peace of mind on whatever you choose.

 

[Helios]

Hitting the target is more important than what you are hitting it with. So, if you can score hits with 9MM, .40S&W or .45ACP, they're all hits. Keep on hitting them as much as is needed.

I like .40S&W and I carry it. I like the 200 grain JHPs from DoubleTap at around 1,000 fps (+/-).

 

[Helios]

By the way... there are plenty of small, very concealable .40 S&W options out there. Here is a good one.