It irritates me that CorBon sells some .40 s&w ammo labeled "+P". There is no such thing. Either they are lying to the public to boost sales, or they are selling unsafe pressure ammo. It has to be one of those two things, as there is no SAAMI spec for a .40 s&w +P. I'm going to give them a piece of my mind, and quit buying from them. If they are liars, then I don't want their stuff. If the ammo is unsafe, I certainly don't want it.
Does CorBon's +P Lie Bother Anyone else?
- Thread starter Futo Inu
- Start date
I thought 40 S&W was designed as +P from the get go.
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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1785
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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1785
Jason Demond
New member
It's not +p as in plus pressure its +p as in plus performance. They saw their mistake and changed it.
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ACCEPT NOTHING LESS THAN FULL VICTORY!"
General Dwight D. Eisenhower-- June 6,1944
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http://www.homestead.com/gunrights/Guns_and_Gunrights.html
[This message has been edited by Kimber Man (edited December 06, 1999).]
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ACCEPT NOTHING LESS THAN FULL VICTORY!"
General Dwight D. Eisenhower-- June 6,1944
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http://www.homestead.com/gunrights/Guns_and_Gunrights.html
[This message has been edited by Kimber Man (edited December 06, 1999).]
It is still a marketing ploy based on deception.
Any time I see that kind of deception in a company right off the bat, I look for someone else to give my money to.
Once deception is detected, the lingering question remains: "what else are they being deceptive about"?
I can't deal with people like that, nor give them my money. There are too many other people to send my money to, who are upfront and honest, like Proload.
www.proload.com if anyone wants to check them out.
Any time I see that kind of deception in a company right off the bat, I look for someone else to give my money to.
Once deception is detected, the lingering question remains: "what else are they being deceptive about"?
I can't deal with people like that, nor give them my money. There are too many other people to send my money to, who are upfront and honest, like Proload.
www.proload.com if anyone wants to check them out.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Why let a little thing like that bother you?
Corbon loads are in the top 3 of the hottest loads you can get for the .40...
+P? Big Deal. Its still some of the best defensive ammo on the market.
Feel free to mail me all your unused Corbon ammo.
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey - have you seen the new Ultimate Super Tactical Match Gun?
Corbon loads are in the top 3 of the hottest loads you can get for the .40...
+P? Big Deal. Its still some of the best defensive ammo on the market.
Feel free to mail me all your unused Corbon ammo.
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey - have you seen the new Ultimate Super Tactical Match Gun?
I don't particularly care how companies market their products. If I'm a smart consumer, I do my research, and then decide if the product fits my needs and is safe. If I determine the product is right for me, it doesn't matter what they call it.
Don't let a company's marketing decide what you're going to buy; use your brain for that decision.
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“The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals. ... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.” -Alexander Addison, 1789
Don't let a company's marketing decide what you're going to buy; use your brain for that decision.
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“The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals. ... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.” -Alexander Addison, 1789
Typical .40 S&W velocity is around 950 fps from a 4" barrel auto. According to Marshall/Sanow in Street Stoppers, the Cor-Bon 180-grain jacketed hollow points average 1,078 from the Heckler & Koch USP pistol and produce low muzzle flash. Perhaps Peter Pi is using one of the newer propellants to gain higher velocity without the greater pressures normally associated with it. Like how his 115 grain 9mm+P gives +P+ velocity at around 1350fps. If this is the case, I do not think a +P rating is a blatant lie, given a 100 fps increase.
Actually, I've heard that some lots of CB have exceeded SAMI specs. There is a gent on another board who has disected various ammo manufactures cartridges and found some very interesting results. http://www.angelfire.com/co3/markcolo/testing.html
I don't have any unused CorBon ammo, because I stopped giving them my money a long time ago 
Deception is deception. I don't care how little, it matters to me because honesty matters to me. They KNOW that most average shooters see "+P" and think "cool! defensive ammo!" because they don't even know what +P means anyway. So, to sell ammo to people that are only partially educated on the matter, they use a little deception and put "+P", meaning "+Power" so they can get around the rules and fool people at the same time. Deception is deception and I will not support a company that has to market their items like that. I guess I just have that kind of integrity and honor, and expect the same of others.
Not only that, but I have seen some tests that expose serious problems in CorBon's quality control with things such as huge variations in velocity and the amount of powder in a cartridge and pressure from round to round.
Not "everyone" agrees that Corbon ammo is good stuff. Some think it is just junk ammo driven to excessive speeds as a marketing ploy. I would rather have a quality product than one that has to be hot-rodded in order to be effective.
Good bullets in good cartidge designs don't necessarily have to be pushed faster to work better. Velocity is not the only key to making a good hollowpoint bullet work. Corbon relies on velocity, because that is all they have.
I'll take Proload, which is true quality ammo from the ground up. Proload tailor-designs each cartridge around a specific bullet weight, hollowpoint design and gun style in order to get the most out of that round and sometimes that mean a little LESS velocity than one could get by simply adding more powder. Anyone can add more powder. More velocity does not mean a better package. There are other factors involved than velocity, like muzzle flash, safety, pressure, recoil and follow up shots and sometimes more velocity means *worse* performance of the hollowpoint rather than better. Often the slower bullet is a much better choice because of all the other advatages gained by reducing the charge a little.
Proload ammo is quality engineered, tailor-made ammo from the ground up with no gimmicks and marketing deception. The same can't be said of Corbon.
[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited December 07, 1999).]
Deception is deception. I don't care how little, it matters to me because honesty matters to me. They KNOW that most average shooters see "+P" and think "cool! defensive ammo!" because they don't even know what +P means anyway. So, to sell ammo to people that are only partially educated on the matter, they use a little deception and put "+P", meaning "+Power" so they can get around the rules and fool people at the same time. Deception is deception and I will not support a company that has to market their items like that. I guess I just have that kind of integrity and honor, and expect the same of others.
Not only that, but I have seen some tests that expose serious problems in CorBon's quality control with things such as huge variations in velocity and the amount of powder in a cartridge and pressure from round to round.
Not "everyone" agrees that Corbon ammo is good stuff. Some think it is just junk ammo driven to excessive speeds as a marketing ploy. I would rather have a quality product than one that has to be hot-rodded in order to be effective.
Good bullets in good cartidge designs don't necessarily have to be pushed faster to work better. Velocity is not the only key to making a good hollowpoint bullet work. Corbon relies on velocity, because that is all they have.
I'll take Proload, which is true quality ammo from the ground up. Proload tailor-designs each cartridge around a specific bullet weight, hollowpoint design and gun style in order to get the most out of that round and sometimes that mean a little LESS velocity than one could get by simply adding more powder. Anyone can add more powder. More velocity does not mean a better package. There are other factors involved than velocity, like muzzle flash, safety, pressure, recoil and follow up shots and sometimes more velocity means *worse* performance of the hollowpoint rather than better. Often the slower bullet is a much better choice because of all the other advatages gained by reducing the charge a little.
Proload ammo is quality engineered, tailor-made ammo from the ground up with no gimmicks and marketing deception. The same can't be said of Corbon.
[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited December 07, 1999).]
Arnistador
New member
I think we need to keep the goal of defensive ammunition in mind. We want ammunition that is high quality, consistent, and a proven design/load that is most efficient in stopping an attack.
Instead of jumping on the bandwagon of pushing bullets faster and faster w/o limit, let's look at what we are intending to do with that bullet. John Koppel has found that by lowering velocity in several cases, penetration in gelatin (through heavy clothing) actually INCREASES. When pushed too fast, certain hollowpoint designs tend to expand too quickly, decreasing penetration.
I am with Red Bull on this one. I've known John for many years now. He has proven to be nothing less than fanatical with the performance of his ammunition. He continually tests his ammunition, making changes when necessary.
Try a few boxes and if you don't like it, John will give you a FULL REFUND. Ever heard of that in the ammunition industry?
Call John at 800-729-6978.
Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment
Instead of jumping on the bandwagon of pushing bullets faster and faster w/o limit, let's look at what we are intending to do with that bullet. John Koppel has found that by lowering velocity in several cases, penetration in gelatin (through heavy clothing) actually INCREASES. When pushed too fast, certain hollowpoint designs tend to expand too quickly, decreasing penetration.
I am with Red Bull on this one. I've known John for many years now. He has proven to be nothing less than fanatical with the performance of his ammunition. He continually tests his ammunition, making changes when necessary.
Try a few boxes and if you don't like it, John will give you a FULL REFUND. Ever heard of that in the ammunition industry?
Call John at 800-729-6978.
Tim
http://www.streetpro.com
Street Smart Professional Equipment
John Lawson
New member
TVDean: Your reference stated that a 5" group at 7 yards is acceptable. That is 72.4 moa! At 21 feet, you should have one ragged hole during rapid fire. If you don't, I don't think the ammo is at fault. Bullet placement is more critical than velocity or bullet expansion or witchcraft and "stopping power." Just place the bullets in vital spots as they present the opportunity and forget the ballistics. For about two lifetimes, police used a .38 special with 2 or 4" barrel and ammunition in the 158 to 200gr range, that exited at about 850fps, with satisfactory results. Some officers got stops against felons who were shooting at them with Tommy guns. Only the hits count.
I see what you're saying.
The tester does not condone the-faster-the-better phylosophy, he actually ranked C-B and Triton #'s 4 & 5 of the 5 loads tested.
We're not talking IPSC accuracy here, just self defense accuracy acceptability.
I prefer my self def. load to be mucho more accurate than 5" @ 7', for the record.
The tester does not condone the-faster-the-better phylosophy, he actually ranked C-B and Triton #'s 4 & 5 of the 5 loads tested.
We're not talking IPSC accuracy here, just self defense accuracy acceptability.
I prefer my self def. load to be mucho more accurate than 5" @ 7', for the record.
I only put CORBON in my carry guns.Nothing else will make me sure of the results I may need when I need them. I bet my life on them.If you feel your choice of ammo is better go to it. If I made a product as good as CORBON I'd brag a little too. With the selection offered by CORBON it seems only 1 item is in question. Not the quality or performance, but description.No one can please everyone all the time,and for some complaining is all they live for.
Tatters
If you call up John at Proload, you will find him to be a very nice and informative designer, and he will tell you everything you want to know about his ammo and what choice you should go with.
One box of the stuff, and you will become and instant fanatic of Proload.
If you call up John at Proload, you will find him to be a very nice and informative designer, and he will tell you everything you want to know about his ammo and what choice you should go with.
One box of the stuff, and you will become and instant fanatic of Proload.
Futo, I jus' remembered... yer a lyer (attorney) aincha? An' yer worryin' about somebody stretching the truth??!! Say it ain't so! Hehe 
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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1785
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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1785
Big G., that's precisely why I'm such a POOR attorney (monetarily) - because I'm not willing to lie for my clients - it has in fact hurt me more than help me on balance (being highly ethical in my practice) - unfortunate but true, near as I can tell.
If Corbon's load is "+Performance", then it should read "+Performance". "+P" has a precise meaning, which is defined by SAAMI, and it puts a load in a higher pressure category, for which gun design would have to differ potentially. If Cor-Bon gets higher vels for the pressure (as they seem to), then more power to 'em. They can and do advertise the claimed vels on the box right beside the ol' "+P", and IINM, it's still there today. Puffery is acceptable. A deception is not. I think they crossed the line here, because they have no right or claim to re-define what "+P" means, and as another poster noted, if they are deceptive about this, then how can you trust them?
If Corbon's load is "+Performance", then it should read "+Performance". "+P" has a precise meaning, which is defined by SAAMI, and it puts a load in a higher pressure category, for which gun design would have to differ potentially. If Cor-Bon gets higher vels for the pressure (as they seem to), then more power to 'em. They can and do advertise the claimed vels on the box right beside the ol' "+P", and IINM, it's still there today. Puffery is acceptable. A deception is not. I think they crossed the line here, because they have no right or claim to re-define what "+P" means, and as another poster noted, if they are deceptive about this, then how can you trust them?
Futo - CorBomb (pun intended) isn't getting more performance out of standard pressure ammo, they're dangerously overpressuring their rounds. Many are over proof round pressures. Not to mention the extreme variation between rounds, even from the same box. Flame away, but the stuff is crap.
If you're a velocity junkie, try Triton. At least they know what the phrase "Quality Control" means.
Personally, I love Pro Load, and like Remington GS and Speer's factory GD a lot, too.
If you're a velocity junkie, try Triton. At least they know what the phrase "Quality Control" means.
Personally, I love Pro Load, and like Remington GS and Speer's factory GD a lot, too.
kingknives
New member
Geeeesh guys lighten up! Your as bad as the politicians getting riled up about "Black Talon". Who cares what they call it as long as it works and works well.
I've been shooting since long before Cor-Bon ever came out. I don't chronograph every round I fire, but I've never had a problem with Cor-Bon and have shot many hundreds of rounds of theirs.....45, 9mm, .40 and .357.
I've also read almost every gun rag published since the mid 70's and have never heard one complaint of Cor-Bons quality control since they have been produced. In fact, I would say just the opposite is true.
I would like to know your sources so I could see for myself.
To each his own, I'm sure Pro load is fine too! I also have pride, integrity and honor, but there are more important things in life to get excited about than whether or not a round is "truly" +P or not.
Hope you and yours have a happy holiday season!
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Knee deep in brass, still shootin fast!
I've been shooting since long before Cor-Bon ever came out. I don't chronograph every round I fire, but I've never had a problem with Cor-Bon and have shot many hundreds of rounds of theirs.....45, 9mm, .40 and .357.
I've also read almost every gun rag published since the mid 70's and have never heard one complaint of Cor-Bons quality control since they have been produced. In fact, I would say just the opposite is true.
I would like to know your sources so I could see for myself.
To each his own, I'm sure Pro load is fine too! I also have pride, integrity and honor, but there are more important things in life to get excited about than whether or not a round is "truly" +P or not.
Hope you and yours have a happy holiday season!
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Knee deep in brass, still shootin fast!