Does Anyone Still Believe in The 147 gr 9x19mm JHP ?

I still enjoy reading the arguments on this for some reason, but think it is a bit like asking "which is better, a T-shirt or a thick flannel shirt?" Well, that depends on the weather....I think that which bullet is best depends on things like intermediate targets, offender size, etc., that we can't predict or control. That being the case, the 147 probably goes deeper and has a better chance of punching through something important. I don't count expansion as anything except a nice bonus, and would probably be happy with FMJ, but this statement won't be seen in ragazines, it doesn't sell advertising. Seems like more and more folks are saying what I think, too: Don't worry about bullets, worry about shooting right. I ALSO recall that the panel study the FBI did a few years back commented that "The confidence of the agent in his weapon" is the most important factor. Carry whatever bullet YOU think will work for YOU, and you will be doing the right thing.

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When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; IT IS that they shall be destroyed forever...Psalms 92.7
 
Reliability, accuracy, penetration, expansion, in that order, or none of it's worth a darn!!!

Personally, I carry 147gn GoldenSabers. In my guns they're 100% reliable, lower muzzle velocity allows me to be more accurate, literature from the Facklerites and the factory support good penetration, and expansion in ANY hollow point is a bonus when it happens. I'm happy knowing that ifi I do my part, they'll do theirs by getting deep enough.
Oh, I'm 6 foot, 140lbs. Skinny, by any measure, and most of the rough types that I encounter are in the 6 foot 250+lbs area, so 15 inches of penetration is a real world figure as far as I'm concerned.

As for that overpenetration thing, almost 90% of combat shots MISS. What makes you think that your one bullet out of a mag of 10 that actually hits, and just might "overpenetrate", is going to be more dangerous to innocents than the other 9 that missed (gonna talk nice to those others and ask 'em not to hit anyone else :p) ? Overpenetration is not an issue.

Tom


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A "Miss" is the ultimate overpenetration!
You can never be too rich, too skinny, or too well armed!
 
With regard to "real world data" Marshall himself claims that his one-shot stop statistics account for approximately 20 percent of all the shootings he evaluates. (Handgun Stopping Power, p. 43)

For the sake of argument, I'll assume his findings are true. According to Marshall, a cartridge that demonstrates 95 percent OSS effectiveness produces 19 one shot stops out of 100 shootings. A cartridge that demonstrates 75 percent OSS effectiveness produces 15 one shot stops out of 100 hundred shootings. Sampling errors reduce these small margins to a point where the findings are meaningless in context.

First generation 9mm 147gr JHPs had problems expanding when passing through clothing. The new generation of 147gr JHPs demonstrate terminal performance that's very similar to .45 ACP 230gr JHPs. For a full size 9mm handgun (barrel length of 4-5 inches) a 147gr JHP would be my first choice.

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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
 
The FBI's big wound ballistics powwow of 87 was every bit as agenda driven as anything M&S have ever done. The Bureau was basically going to find a way to blame anything for the Miami fiasco other than bad luck and questionable tactics. The 9mm Silvertip made a handy scapegoat, and of course when the FBI sneezes, state and local agencies catch a cold...

I'll grant you that the newer 147's are a dramatic improvement over the older ones, which seemed to have a hollowpoint cavity for decoration only. For police, they make a lot more sense. Me being Suzie Civilian CCW, however, I am not likely to need great barrier penetration or the ability to make cross torso shots. If there's a barrier between me and Mr. Bad Guy, or he's facing in another direction, I'll be taking that opportunity to put some distance between the two of us. I'd be willing to wager that maybe 95 out of 100 legit civilian self-defense shootings are frontal shots from powder burn distance out to maybe 10 feet.

RE: penetration to vitals. I've witnessed cardiac surgery in an operating theatre. The patient was a big dude, but I'd swear the surgeon didn't have to reach in past his wrists to get at the heart. To hear some folks in the maximum penetration uber alles camp talk, you'd think that the poor doc would have been up past his elbows in the guys thoracic cavity trying to reach the important parts. The Romans would reassure their recruits, who were overawed at the jumbo swords toted by Germanic warriors, that those big swords were unnecessary: they only needed the last three or four inches of their gladius to reach the heart...

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

[This message has been edited by Tamara (edited May 22, 2000).]
 
Due to the ineffectiveness of the round in the famous Miami FBI agent shootout, I won't carry them. 124 grain Remington Golden Sabres + P - velocity + penetration.

Talk to anybody who reloads and you'll know why the 147 grain is prone to malfunctions and kaboom. Just enough people don't reload to see the kaboom factor. Very little volume left in a 9mm case when using a 147 grain bullet.

In that weight, I'd look for a SW 40. Otherwise fast and light is what works for the best follow-up accuracy.

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The Seattle SharpShooter
 
I've performed tests that duplicate the conditions in which a bullet first hits an arm (presenting 4 inches of a penetration obstacle), exits the "arm" and enters the "chest". The simulated chest consisted of pork back ribs placed against a second block of gelatin.

In testing Federal's .45 ACP 230gr HydraShok JHP from a 5" Bbl using this test set-up, the bullet penetrates less than 5" into the simulated chest after passing through the simulated arm. What happens is the bullet expands in the "arm", and when this occurs it changes the bullet's sectional density. This decreased sectional density (which produces a short, fat expanded bullet) coupled with decreased bullet velocity (velocity lost penetrating the arm), decreases the bullet's ability to blast through ribs and penetrate to reach vitals.

This is the kind of performance to expect from a bullet that demonstrates 13-14 inches penetration (the 230gr HydraShok's performance) when conditions are most ideal. When penetration conditions get challenging, things change for the worse. This is the reason why a minimum penetration depth of 12 inches is recommended.

The corrective actions undertaken by the FBI in response to the tactics errors in Miami go far beyond the Wound Ballistics Workshop.

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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com



[This message has been edited by Shawn Dodson (edited May 22, 2000).]
 
I am amazed at the number of civilian handgunners who assume they will have a clear frontal shot at an attacker and therefore don't need a pistol bullet capable of penetrating 12" plus. Here's a simple experiment: go stand in front of a mirror facing the mirror directly with your arms at your side. Notice how your chest is a nice big, unobstructed target?

Now raise your strong hand towards the mirror as if you were pointing a pistol. Notice how your arm now blocks about 1/4 of your chest?

Now raise the other arm into an Isocoles stance/grip. Presto, 1/2 of your chest is now blocked.

Now try a Weaver stance. You will notice that your chest presents a smaller target, most of which is blocked by the shoulder and upper arm of your support hand. The same would apply if you were pointing a long gun.

Even in the classic one-handed bullseye stance, the arm holding the pistol bolcks a considerable amount of the vital area.

Seems to me that if I ever need to use deadly force, there is a very good chance that my assailant's vital areas will be at least partially blocked by the assailant's arms and shoulders. Therefore, I tend to favor deeper penetrating loads.
 
Alfadog,

That is very true, and I am also well aware of the phenomenon of your attention being focused on the perp's gun and "shooting where you look" which results in deformed JHP's skidding off the weapon before hitting the BG.

However, based on a couple of studies I've read recently this is almost exclusively a LEO phenomenon for the following reasons:

1) Civilians rarely have to confront a perp who has a drawn gun and tell them to "Drop the weapon!" at gunpoint, which is the cause of the vast majority of these cases. I'm not Bill Jordan, I can't beat the drop...

2) Civilians don't have the strict escalation of force regulations or rules of engagement most police depts have. If he's got a knife, or is a large burly aggressive male, the state of Georgia doesn't require me to try using non lethal weapons and calling for backup.

3) Both times that I've actually drawn down on someone were exactly as described: almost muzzle-contact distance, frontal presentation. One (apparently) unarmed large psycho with arms out to grapple, one extremely polite carjacker ("I'm afraid I'm gonna have to ask you to get out of the car, ma'am") With a small nickel auto held at his hip. Which brings up another point- the heat has a much greater likelihood of encountering bank robbers and other hardened felon types who know their way around a gun. Your average small time mugger or thrill rapist that is a much more likely encouter for a Jane Q Public like me wouldn't know a weaver stance if you drew them a picture, they tend to hold low at the hip, or extended out one-handed in the gangsta pose.

All that aside, I'm comfortable with the penetration of the 10mm auto loads I carry...

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

[This message has been edited by Tamara (edited May 22, 2000).]
 
Does Anyone Still Believe in The 147 gr 9x19mm JHP?

No. Never did and never will. 115+p and 124/125+p work much better for me.
 
IF I were to go back to carrying a 9mm it would be loaded with 147gr jhps in a 5 inch or 124gr loads in a compact.I have had the misfortune of being there and I spoken to a lot of other people who have been there and very few people have taken a direct frontal shot.I promise you that when bullets start flying no one just stands there and lets you take that nice direct shot into there chest.They move around and try to get behind something that stops bullets.Stick to a load that will make it through an arm or car glass etc before the vitals.
 
There are a lot of generalizations and misconceptions floating around here (and I`m probably as guilty as anyone). (1)Real street performance data can come from a myriad of sources not just M&S which is but one. Major police departments keep records of their shootings as do federal law enforcement agencies. For every agency that`s happy with 147./9mm there are 3 that have switched to something else due to it`s ineffectiveness or the liability of overpenetration. Also remember on a different note,for example,that the NYPD was quite happy with 158gr.LRN .38 special for decades, that doesn`t make it effective. To the individual who expects 90% of any shots he fires in combat to miss ,PLEASE tell me you`re NOT a CCW holder or LEO!!! (2)The human body is not solid muscle all the way through. Blocks of ordinance gelatin, wetpack and pork roasts etc. simulate to one extent or another solid muscle. Large portions of the human body are made up of fluids and organs of far lower density. A bullet will travel MUCH farther through say lung tissue than it will through muscle. A pure side shot will likely have to pass throught less than 6" of actual muscle(unless you`re shooting Mr.Universe),mostly passing through the upper arm,then the soft(largely air filled lungs),then (bingo) the heart. A good point was made about limbs at odd angles and positions interfering with the penetration. However bullet deflection is as much of an issue here as penetration depth. Look at the wound tracks made by some of the rounds fired during the Miami FBI shootout(among countless others) and that becomes quite clear. No bullet regardless of weight is immune to deflection. It still amazes me that years after the FBI realized the err of it`s ways and abandoned the slow,deep penetration 9mm that there are still folks who quote their old findings as proof that they work so well. Newer research by the INS and others has discredited,many times over,the earlier FBI tests and their criteria in keeping with the majority of the real world results. But,as I said before everyone`s entitled to their own opinion. Personally I could care less if someone wants to carry 230gr.LRN in their 9mm. In the interest of preventing a flame war I`d just like to say that although I may not agree with some of the other opinions stated in this thread I certainly respect the individuals who made them and their reasons for doing so. :) Marcus
 
Marcus:

How often do INS officers confront drugged attackers?

How often do INS officers confront drunk attackers?

How often do INS officers confront bad guys who are determined to do as much harm as possible before being stopped?

How often do INS officers confront psychotic attackers?

How relevant are INS shooting scenarios to police shootings in general and how relevant are INS shooting scenarios to concealed carry or home defense shootings in general?

Please describe to me the "Newer research by the INS and others [that] has discredited, many times over, the earlier FBI tests and their criteria in keeping with the majority of the real world results." What new mechanism of incapacitation has the INS found from their real world results that nobody else knew about?

The performance of the 155gr bullet chosen by the INS is not a radical departure from the 12 inch minimum penetration recommendations of the IWBA and FBI, and it will probably do the job in all but the most extreme situations where penetration will be the absolute decisive factor. Perhaps you can list for me the penetration depths of the 155gr Remington JHP bullet, in all five INS test events, when fired from a Beretta 96D Brigadier? In how many of these test events does the Remington 155gr JHP fail to penetrate at least 12 inches?

Please describe to me the evidence of bullet deflection that occurred in the FBI-Miami shooting of armed felon Michael Platt.

Please list the source for your claim that 3 out of 4 law enforcement agencies that have switched from the 9mm 147gr specifically because of poor performance. (My agency switched from 124gr HydraShok to 147gr HydraShok after a penetration failure.)

And, FYI: properly prepared ordnance gelatin simulates soft tissue in general, not just muscle tissue.

I await your answers with great interest. :)

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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
 
Hey, Marcus, let's see how many shots YOU land when paper refuses to stand still and starts shooting back!!!! Oh, then we'll turn out the lights!!! Shoot an honest police qualification course, or a military one, and we'll see just how many anyone lands!! It'll be ugly the first time around, and maybe even the second!

Go look at some department statistics from ANYWHERE, and you'll see that most shots fired by LEO, DEA, FBI, CCW, ETC.......MISS. The simple truth is, handgunners are the most dangerous threat to low flying aircraft that there is.

And yes, I'm Military (shooting team and Security Force), LEO (reserve officer) and CCW. I shoot a lot, in many different types of qualifications. In 6 years, I've only drawn my weapon once on duty (thank GOD) and I've never had to discharge it in anger (again, thank GOD). I also rank IDPA expert, so I've shot my share of "Real World" scenarios, too. Some of my fellow officers have shot in anger, and they'll tell you if you just ask, you have to account for every bullet that you fire, and most of 'em end up in the walls, not the perps!!!

That said, we carry Glock 17/19's with 124gn GoldenSabers as duty ammo. Why? When the dept evaluated all the ammo loads available, it's the load that penetrated deepest in a vest, and expanded the most and most reliabily in gelatin.

Military I'm restricted the the M9 service pistol and ball.

I carry a Sig 229/40 off duty on my own permit, and shoot it in IDPA. If I opt for 9mm due to dress restrictions, it's as I stated in my previous post.

Tom


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A "Miss" is the ultimate overpenetration!
You can never be too rich, too skinny, or too well armed!
 
Shawn,great questions. Since I don`t have a photographic memory and don`t care to dig through reams of reference material to reply to a single forum question(especially when I`m fairly certain you already know the answers) ;) I`m going to skip to the basic premises. (1)The INS was just one example mentioned. (2)Since I`m not an INS officer I don`t have the answers to your 5 questions,however,what makes you think the INS with 18,000 officers nationwide and more recorded shootings than all other federal agencies combined isn`t a good enough example for anyone else? Still they`re good questions,please post the answers for us. (3)The INS/NFU ballistics symposium was again just one example. In it they started with the basic FBI testing procedure and then changed it to reflect what they,as a body of law enforcement and ballistics experts,felt the results in the field dictated. This meant less stress on ultra deep penetration and more on expansion ,energy transfer,temporary stretch cavities and quantifying the results of fragmentation. But then I`m sure you already know what they discussed and did there and why,but simply don`t agree with it. Which is of course your perogative. I don`t pretend to be any kind of expert,let alone the caliber(no pun intended) of the individuals involved so I suggest that you discuss the matter with them if you`d like to get down to the real nity gritty(if you haven`t already). As for the 155gr.Rem..40 used by the INS,are you comparing the performance of a high velocity medium expantion .40 to a subsonic delayed expantion 9mm? Do you mean to tell me you wouldn`t choose the .40? (4)My reference to the Miami shootout was intended to point out that the bullet paths weren`t all perfectly straight when passing through a limb and then into the body. I honestly don`t recall the exact details off the top of my head but I seem to recall that some deflection was involved with one of the BGs. All of us have had bullets deflected by small branches or some such at one time or another. There`s no news here. (5)I`ll admit that the 1:3 ratio was a guestimate but I`ve read of precious few agencies switching to the 147gr. in recent years and many who have switched from it to either 124/115 +P,.40,.45ACP or .357Sig. I don`t recall exactly which ones off the top of my head,nor do I remember what I had for dinner a week from last Thursday. ;) As for your agencys switch,it comes as no suprise to me as agencies like the FBI are notorious for having knee jerk reactions to shootings they`re involved in. In their case they went to the 147 as a reaction to the Miami Shootout then changed their minds and went to more powerful calibers (the best solution to the best 9mm load question IMHO). (6)Please explain to me how a gel block of consistant density simulates both dense muscle tissue and air filled soft lung tissure for example. Is it IYO meant to be a "happy medium"? If you put one foot in scalding hot water and the other in freezing cold water would it be accurate to say that "on the average" you`re comfortable? That point I believe stands on it`s own. Yes,it is a good test medium but the only real test is living human tissue and since the world we live in is chaotic at best the results of true shootings will never satisfy a statistician or scientist. I don`t pretend to be an expert on the subject but I`ve studied the research and stats of people who are and I`m simply stating which ones I believe in. The likes of the NYPD,Ill./Or./Ga.StatePolice ,FBI,INS,and others also share this perspective on the matter so I feel I`m in pretty good company. I`ll agree to disagree on this matter. You can have your 147gr. 9mm,I`ll stick with my Triton +Ps and given my druthers they`ll be in .45ACP. :D Marcus
 
Banzai,just saw yer post. Whew,is it getting hot in here?..... :D I don`t have a problem at all with 124gr.GSs,I`ve carried some 124s myself and always felt well protected. I have no problem at all with adequate penetration ,my rub is with excessive penetration. I also understand your point about combat scenario shooting etc,YES I have done many of those things myself and I strive to train as realistically as possible(although of course the best simulation is still nothing compared to the real thing!). But did you qualify IDPA expert by missing 9 out of 10 targets completely? LEO stats for hits per shot are often alarmingly poor but I haven`t seen one yet that approaches 90% misses! Also most LEOs and military personel have little interest in firearms or shooting and do and learn only what they`re required to. As a result their shooting often sucks especially under stress contributing to those poor stats. Depts that have pushed training in recent years(such as the LAPD and Border Patrol) have had good sucess in raising their hit probabilities. That being said an individual who takes to heart their shooting and realistic training(such as yourself) has the potential to do even better. That leaves us FAR from 10:1. I consider anyone who honestly thinks they have a 90% chance of sending stray bullets flying helter skelter into hapless bystanders a definite menace to society. In short,although I understand that skills degrade GROSSLY under the stress of a shooting situation I think you`re still selling both yourself and others short with the 10:1 miss ratio you quoted earlier. Marcus
 
To answer the original question with my own opinion:

I probably won't be shooting any naked people, so all I care about is expansion in CLOTHED gelatin.

(Many people, myself included, get hung up on the first number in gelating testing: the naked gel data. I have trained myself to look at the clothed gel data first. A good hollowpoint within it's designed velocity threshold will expand well even when encountering heavy clothing and penetrate about the same depth.

A bad hollowpoint/cartridge design can quickly be spotted when it does not open up well when encountering clothing, or there is a big difference in performance with or without cloth.

A really good design/cartridge/gun combo seems to expand and penetrate fairly reliably with similar numbers no matter what it encounters, within reason.)



In clothed gelatin, from a compact 9mm, the 124gr +P in most loads penetrates plenty deep enough, often well over 14 inches.
Even on naked gelatin it does not underpenetrate in most all cases I have seen when tested from a compact gun (Glock 19 or 26 for example).


Some 115gr +P+ even penetrates to a respectable depth from a subcompact if heavy clothing is used.


The tricky thing seems to be to find a bullet that performs reliably on the street. Bullets that expand reliably in gel often fail to on the street. This presents a dilemma to me: If most hollowpoints do not expand in real shootings, and you cannot expect them to perform in real life like they do in gel, then is it better to get a hollowpoint that OVER expands in gel, so that you are assured that it expands at all in real life???
Obviously gel data cannot directly indicate street performance because you can get a bullet to expand all day long in all kinds of gelatin test, and in a street shooting it will totally fail to expand.

I do not expect a 147gr 9mm to expand well, out of a compact gun, in the real world, against a clothed bad guy. And, imagine this: the real world shows this theory to be true. This load does end up often acting like ball ammo and not expanding due to complicating factors of real life (myriad variables), clothing, compact gun platforms that lose velocity, etc.


For CCW, for a compact gun, I don't see any need for anything heavier than a 124gr+P.



And, the deciding factor for me is that most all of the practice ammo I ever shoot is in 124gr.

I want my carry ammo to aim and feel like my practice ammo.

I do not like the idea of practicing with 115 or 124gr ammo (which is the FAR majority of practice FMJ ammo) and then carrying 147gr in my gun.


Ps- the INS, who has more shootings that all the other federal agencies COMBINED says that the 115gr +P+ bullet out of a service firearm is the best 9mm load. Who am I to argue when they actually shoot people?! Regularly!
But alas, I refuse to carry the shallow penetrating 115gr +P+ so I carry the next best thing, the 124gr +P.


PPs- Shawn Dodson: I respect your opinion and thereby have a question for you: Do you carry a 9mm for defense? All the data I can find shows that it works about as well as anything else. Do you think the 9mm is adaquate and do you choose to stake your life on it, or do you always carry something larger and/or more powerful? Thanks.



[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited May 23, 2000).]
 
With police shootings you have on occasion some moron that causes problems and waits until backup arrives (ie more cops) before doing something that justifies lethal response by the cops.

Perhaps those morons are just trying suicide by cop?

Anyway I have seen the BCA (our state equiv to FBI they do all serious level homicide investigtions in this state) photos and etc during classes on forensics.

In many cases you will have 4 to 8 cops all firing at one Goblin. Because I am a gun nut one of the first things I would do was count the number of shots vs hits. Usually a 10% hit rate was GOOD if multiple cops were shooting.

Two factors are key IMHO. One the goblin was usually behind partial cover or concealment thus giving small intermitent target. Two was once shots start everyone starts shooting.

Most of the misses were hitting the cover/concealment the goblin was using--a miss is not always endangering others.

Based on the scenes I saw in forensics I think cops should practice flanking prior to shooting escalation more. This would provide two benifits: make the gobline feel more exposed so they give up, or failing that if shots are fired the goblin won't have cover from at least one unit's fire.

I will also note that most of these events seemed to center around cars. We didn't study any SWAT shootings. The BCA probably handles more State patrol and sheriff shootings due to polotics and economics.
 
Oh, and Winchester has added 147gn TCMJ to it's USA line, and it's selling like hotcakes.

Tom


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A "Miss" is the ultimate overpenetration!
You can never be too rich, too skinny, or too well armed!
Wake up and realize that you have the moral imperative of action..!!!
 
I think there's a reason the FBI and many law enforcement agencies have switched to .40. It, just like the 357 Mag, simply is more powerful, more effective. In FBI tests the Speer Gold Dot 155gr .40 expanded to .86 caliber and still penetrated 14 inches of ballistic gelatin.

Don't get me wrong, the 9mm is a great round. As John Browning said, the .45 is too much gun for some people (most people actually). I do think the lighter weight bullets in the 124 gr. range show more promise, but if you aim straight a .22 can take down an enemy with one shot (though probably not until 3 or more). The 147 gr is kind of like the heavier 38 spl. After a point you start losing effectiveness/velocity to the point that it isn't worth it.
 
I believe in the 147gr 9mm but not enough to stake my life on it or that of my loved ones. I also do not have 100% faith in any load. Since I do not know if The Fackerites are right or Marshall & Sanow (I suspect the truth is someplace in the middle and depends a lot on the particular situation that you are in), I go both ways -- I alternate every other round between Winchester Supreme SXT 147gr and Remington Golden Saber 124gr for both heavy & slow and lite & fast (it's better to be half wrong than all wrong).
Share what you know, learn what you don't -- FUD
fud-nra.gif
 
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