Does Anyone Still Believe in The 147 gr 9x19mm JHP ?

M

Mike H

New member
The 147 grain 9mm JHP was one of the early winners in several of the "definitive" studies into which caliber/bullet configurations would yield the best results. It was felt that the 147gr would achieve results through its improved penetrative powers and a number of agencies started to issue it, well until they had to use it of course, then they went in the opposite direction and loaded 115gr +P. So does anyone still believe in the 147 gr hollowpoint as a defensive round, the shelves are always full of Winchester's Super X in that weight so someone somewhere is using them. Who knows, maybe it's the gangbangers, those big baggy pants look like they could stop a little 115gr.

Seriously though, any takers ??

Regards,

Mike H
 
New Zealand Police issue Federal Hydra-Shock 147 gn 9mm for the Glock 17 pistol. In the last 12 months there have been two fatal police shootings with the gun and cartridge.

In the first, 3 shots were fired at an offender carrying an imitation pistol which he refused to drop and continued to present to the cop when challenged.

The first two rounds struck the offender in the arms but did not deter him from his actions. The 3rd round struck him in the chest and he went straight down.

The last shooting was 3 weeks ago. A drug/alcohol induced offender was insisting on confronting a cop with a baseball bat. He refused to back off and was threatening to kill the cop.

When the cop was backed into a wall with no avenue of escape, and the offender getting closer to him, he fired 5 rounds. The first shot was a warning shot, clearly away from the offender and inteded to be a final deterent.

When it didn't work the cop fired 4 rounds into the offenders chest. He kept firing until the ofender dropped, as he had been taught.

Despite the movies there are no magic bullets that wil drop an offender if he is just scrathed. Real world physics prevail.

In the first shooting, given that only one of the 3 rounds struck the torso, and ended the confrontation, the ammo did the job. Unfortunatly the marksmanship aspect didn't allow the first two rounds to hit properly, but that too is real life stress.

In the second shooting, the cop did what he had been taught and kept shooting until the offender went down. Would he have dropped with just 1 or 2 hits from a 115gn +P round? It's debatable, but possible.

As a New Zealand cop authorised to carry at all times on duty, I am just as happy with the 147 gn Hydr-Shock as I was with the 125 gn .38 Special +P we had in the S&W Model 10's.

I'm not saying it's the best of the best, but it will do the job if put in the right place and follow-up shots are used when appropriate.
 
For a number of years, the Fed. Hydra Shok 147 gr HP was issued to FBI agents. They also used it in their H&KMP5 subguns. They liked it. They also issued Gold Dot ammo. I don't know now, what they issue in 9mm.

The Los Angeles Sheriff's Dept. issued the Win. 147 gr. HP subsonic for years. They had a lot of satisfactory stops, as long as the deputy was accurate in his/her shooting. (The reason they switched to the WW subsonic round, from their previously issued Fed. 115 gr HP, was because the Win. 147 gr HP subsonic functioned better in the MP5 subguns carried by the LASD SWAT dudes. For LASD, all 9mm is standardized.)

They went to the Ranger SXT 147 gr hp, (Black Talon) about five years ago. Still have effective stopping in LASD shootings, so I hear.

Accuracy is more important that design of bullet in MOST shootings. FWIW. J.B.

P.S. My Beretta 92FS is loaded with 147 gr WW Ranger SXT, with two additional hi cap mags, and I'm not really worried aobut whether or not they will work. If I do my part, they'll do their's.

[This message has been edited by Jay Baker (edited May 20, 2000).]
 
I bought a box of 147gr Golden Sabers by mistake. I usually load with the 124gr. I see no problens with it. I believe that good shot placement beats big (or small) bullet any day of the week.

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BOYCOTT SMITH AND WESSON!!!
Defend the Constitution from the foreign threat!!!!
 
Not my first (or second, or third) choice in 9mm.

Best = 115g JHP+P+

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
Yes, the 9mm is good for nothing. All those that think they're dead from being shot by one should stand up and stop pretending. Jeez.

I prefer the 115 JHP because I find it more accurate for me.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
Haven't tried the 147g bullets but I like the 124g bullets better than the 115g.
I think it is more accurate and versatile out of the carbine and my pistols.
I handload and Blue Dot seems to work fine in the short and longer carbine barrels.
147-grain bullets will more than likely beat your pistol with extended use.
 
Just a few notes on the 147-grain JHP in 9mm:

1. A recent gun mag tested the velocity increases in 9mm rounds fired from a 16.5" barrel of a MArlin Camp carbine. The 147 grain actually slowed down. All 115 and 124 grain loads sped up between 10 and 20 % versus the same round in a 5" barrel. IF you expect a velocity increase in your carbine-length barrel, you may need to go with lighter bullets. However, you may wish to do chrony comparisons yourself, as the MArlin has MicroGroove rifling, not standard.
2. By their design, the 147-grain JHPs do not tend expand as well as their light counterparts. They are instead designed to be very accurate and penetrate deeply while giving controlled expansion and late energy release. Honestly, I have seen a 100 or so pics of actual recovered bullets and bullet x-rays and most bullets seem to expand infrequently anyways. Therefore, it is up to you to decide whether expansion is necessary or whether penetration is what you want.
3. Personally, I prefer either 115 or 124-grain loads, especially in +P loadings. I am a proponent of effectiveness being related to how much energy gets dumped into the target. Lighter 9mms tend to dump all their energy and stay in the target.
4. Given my druthers, I tend to stick to CorBon 115gr +P.

Just my $0.02.
 
There`s a reason law enforcement agencys have been leaving the 147gr. 9mm in droves. It works very baddly. Yes,any well placed bullet etc. etc. but we all want the most effective load we can get. Check out the record for New York Transit cops who were issued 147gr. JHPs (I forget which brand). There were scary numbers of failures to stop and really alarming numbers of bystanders and other cops injured or killed by bullets that overpenetrated their intended target. I`ll steer clear of them thanks,115gr.+P for me. Marcus
 
It is fairly evident that a lot of folks get their ammunition/ballistics information from the gun mags, and that is too bad.

Check out www.firearmstactical.com
and www.iwba.com (website of the International Wound Ballistics Association). The IWBA puts out a quarterly journal that is just fantastic. Another info source is MacPherson's book "Bullet Penetration".

Regardless of your choice of ammo, that choice should be made with some research and facts to support such a choice.

I had a hand in selecting our department's duty round (9mm), and we ended up with Federal's 135 gr bonded core +p. Had we not chosen that particular round, we almost certainly would have gone with a 147 gr loading. Anything less than 124 gr was not even in the running.
 
124gr+P Speer Gold Dots.

i would feel better off with a 124gr or 115gr.

i think for home defense a lighter round like a 115gr works well but for carrying i would prefer a 124gr. i would not feel comforatable carrying any 147gr load.
 
I use 147gr. More recoil (and more reliable cycling) but less noise. More penetration and less expansion. All of my 9x19 is 147gr and all .45 is 230gr.
 
For those who don`t know it already www.firearmstactical is a VERY biased site, it simply perpetuates it`s own doctrine. Looking to the real world and actual results obtained by law enforcement agencys accross the country(using many different "yardsticks") clearly indicates that the 147gr. 9mm is and always was the answer to a question no one asked. The recent INS/NFU Ballistics Test Protocal symposium goes a long was toward discrediting the ultra deep penetration loads pioneered by the FBI such as the 147.gr.9mm. The INS is involved in more gunfights than all the other federal law enforcement agencies combined,they have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn`t. Of course everyone`s entitled to their own opinion. Marcus
 
I have 147 grain Remington Subsonic. It makes a .355 caliber hole. One plus. It has minimal muzzle flash at night.
 
I think several people here have offered good "real-world" examples -- LAPD, etc. -- of PDs and others who have had excellent reseults with the 147. I also understand that the San Diego PD is very happy with the real-world results they are getting from the 147 gr. 9mm. So I don't understand how anyone can say the "real world" (aka, "on the street") results don't support the 147 gr. 9mm as an excellent choice in a self-defense JHP.

I would suggest that everyone check out the information at [Link to invalid post] and decide for yourself whether those who make claims of numerous failures in the "real world" are to be believed (with all the many variables involved in any real world shooting) or those who back up their claims with extensive, clearly explained and detailed analysis -- not to mention reports of success from the real world that back up their claims. Some of the best information pertaining to this subject can be found here: http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm . And if you prefer good analysis over anecdotes, you really should consider subscribing to the excellent quarterly journal put out by the IWBA www.iwba.com .

Also, for those who just have to verify everything for themselves before they will believe it (here comes the shamless, self-serving plug), check out my proposal to make inexpensive ordinance gelatin available to one-and-all here. If you really want to know how 147 gr. 9mm performs in your handgun vs. 115 gr. +P, you just have to do the tests yourself, period.

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Wound Ballistics is the study of effects on the body produced by penetrating projectiles.
Great Daily Commentary from a thoughtful Christian perspective.
Some fascinating insights into the current market mania from the Prudent Bear fund.

[This message has been edited by adad (edited May 22, 2000).]
 
Measuring my torso depth from front to back, I get 10 or 11 inches. I stand 5'12", have an average build, and I was including a body part that most male perps don't have in that measurement.

Enough penetration to reach vitals is crucial, but we're talking about shooting H. Sapiens Goblinus here, not Cape Buffalo. The only way you'd need fifteen inches of penetration to reach the ticker on a perp is if he was bending over and you shot him in the posterior, a practice frowned upon in most courts of law or if he weighed on the order of 400 lbs, in which case you could probably escape at a brisk walk...

Personally I don't think either camp (light & fas or slow & heavy) is 100% right and both have valid points as well as personal agendas, but the crowds of loyal followers, the sworn disciples of either M&S or Fackler, just slay me...

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
 
If I measured correctly, I get about 13-14 inches from the outside of my right bicep to my heart. Add muscle mass to the arm and chest (or lots of fat) or an odd angle and 15 inches isn't unrealistic by any means.

BTW, here's a snippet from the IWBA Handgun Specification Package (which can be found here):

Most physicians knowledgeable in wound trauma believe that adequate penetration depth is the most important single property in handgun ammunition. The appropriate value for minimum penetration depth has generally been assumed to be 12 inches ever since the first FBI wound ballistics meeting in 1987. Unfortunately, this assumption has often been interpreted very simplistically (i.e., 12.1 Inches of penetration is good, but 11.9 inches of penetration is no good), but the real situation is more complicated. The problem is the possibility that the bullet will require an unusually large penetration to reach vital structures well inside the body. This can occur when the bullet must traverse non-critical tissue; e.g., the extended arm of an assailant aiming his handgun, and/or an unusual bullet path angle in the torso, and/or an unusually fat or beefy individual. The probability of needing this extra penetration is a judgment call, but most people believe it is a significant factor and much more important than the relatively modest increase in expanded diameter achieved by reducing penetration depth (e.g., approximately 30% increase in expanded bullet diameter is achieved by designing to an 8 inch penetration depth rather than 12 inches). This is the reason the professional wound ballistics community specified the 12 inch minimum penetration even though they are well aware that an 8 inch penetration is usually adequate. The suggested specification values for mean penetration depth are greater than 12.5 inches and less than 14.0 inches.
 
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