Does anyone else get the willies from the Kosovo action???

Karanas,
Keep in mind that some of the arms that China and Russia may re-arm Serbia with may have been built with plans stolen from our own weapons labs. How ironic.
I'm concerned as well that missles are flying and bombs are dropping and there's no mention (that I've heard of) of an exit strategy. Gee, how can Komrade Klinton declare martial law for Y2K if all the main troops are in Europe and Iraq? Does he think there's enough National Guard troops to do the job? Can't add anything more than what's been already said. I nodded my head all the way to the bottom of this page.

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Don LeHue

The surest sign of poor craftsmanship is wrinkles in the duct tape.




[This message has been edited by DonL (edited March 25, 1999).]
 
I had brought this up with Q some weeks ago...look at the alliances, events and the excuses that brought us WW1 and WW2. Also look at the only successsful multinational operation I can think of (supression of the Chinese Boxers, 1900) that ever worked...with ephemeral and limited gains.

Seriously, read the German and Soviet explanations of the Polish events of '39, tell me if they sound familiar. Personally, I am disgusted, but that would be no different from the rest of TFL members...

Billy is using US troops as human shields while he and other petty "elected" thugs are chest-beating. Nice...hope the Army remembers this when push comes to shove domestically.

Whatever happend to the Monroe Doctrine (I liked the part about Europe, if not the position on the rest of the Americas)?
 
I e-mailed my Senators last night. I called my Represenative, Ed Bryant, this morning. Something strange here, Bryant, his staff and I are in pretty close agrement on most topics. But today, instead of the usual friendly chat on the topic at hand, all I got from the guy on the phone was silence. Only thing I can figure is that congress is trying to deal with this without decent info from the White House or they are planning to back "Slick's" play. Either way it don't look good.
 
Of course Clinton's got an exit strategy: In less than 2 years, he leaves the White house, and the next President has to deal with the mess. You might not think that's much of a strategy, but it works for him.
 
Grayfox..
Yesterday I heard Sen. McClain (R-AZ) telling how the Congressional/Presidential "meetings" concerning Kosovo were more like briefing sessions instead of meetings...i.e. The Pres. saying that this and that is what is going to happen and thats that.

We have a President who thinks he is a King and rules by his own divine fiat.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
Well, let's see. Vietnam proved that carpet bombing doesn't work and Iraq proved that strategic bombing doesn't work. Yet time and again, we see a small terrorist group or individual bent on destruction doing the same damage or worse. What's Willy's plan, sure, more strategic bombing. If anyone would truly be determined to end this with the minimal loss of life, not to mention cost, we should have the personel at our disposal already. Cutting the head off the snake is true. And I'm not talking about the clowns that tried to poison Castro's cigars either. Oh? There's a law against that? Why would Teflon Bill worry about breaking a few silly laws that would actually help someone besides himself.

Or, we could use the BIG one to make the region into a large parking lot, but I'm not even in favor of that.

And don't get me started with problems from China that started decades ago. I've already vented to my brother about that.

This debacle has gone on far to long already. I'm tired of the US receiving so much collateral damage.

PS. If Don L posted above, I agree with him.

Ron
Detroit Area Chapter
Terra Haute Torque and Recoil Society
 
DC: The President is the head of the only branch of government which actually DOES stuff. Ultimately, the only limits on Presidential power in our country are 1. Conscience. and, 2. The willingness of Congress to remove a President who oversteps. Clinton lacks the former, and Congress lacks the latter. So Bill IS a King, for at least the next two years. After that, it will be interesting to see if he voluntarilly leaves office, or invents some pretext to stay.
 
Okay, okay. I vowed I was not gonna comment, but I goaded myself into it. I'm _still_ not going to comment on the propriety/sense of this whole affair (that would take too long)...but I do feel I must take a shot at the latest issues raised in this debate.

Folks, he's the commander in chief. Do I like him? No. Do I trust him? Uhm...please. No. Am I aware that he is playing (and has played) the military as a card to further his own political agenda? Certainly. Does it piss me off? Absolutely. But its his right to play that card.

Think about it. Flash back to the 1980s or early 1990s. Put Reagan or Bush in the White House, amazingly timid liberals in Congress, and a host of troubles around the world. Every time we did something (bombed Triploi, put the Habius Grabus on Noriega, pimpslapped Saddam), a similar discussion was initiated. How can he do this? These are our kids we're sending into harm's way! Why? How? What for? How dare he!

Where did you stand THEN? I agree...Bill Clinton is not worthy of the power we have given him. But we gave it to him.

The President _must_ have the authority to act swiftly and decisively. Sometimes that means rattling the saber. Sometimes it means drawing it. And not everyone is always gonna agree on all the particulars.

So no, he's not acting as king ruling by fiat. He's acting as a president must. This just highlights how unworthy he is of the office. :(

Now, I'll step down off my soapbox and bring up the one point I'm sure has been mentioned somewhere before...the last time western powers meddled in the affairs of the Balkans, Russia also got involved. And we all know how THAT turned out.

Mike
 
Call me internationally ignorant, but what have we to really gain by stepping in to another country's war, or placing an arms embargo on one side to tip the scale? And what have we to lose by staying out of it? I'm talking about us as the American people, not clinton.

Haven't we got enough troubles at home that we have to go meddle in others' business?


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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."
 
Coronach...
He is ruling by fiat, just look at all the Executive Orders he has written....magnitudes more than any other President, and Congress is finally starting to move on some.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
DC writes: "He is ruling by fiat, just look at all the Executive Orders he has written....magnitudes more than any other President, and Congress is finally starting to move on some."

Absolutely. This is the checks and balances system in action. Please, don't make me try to defend the man or his administration...seppuku with a rusty set of nailclippers would be preferable. ;)

My point, though is that when stuff happens that you need to respond to RIGHT NOW, the president needs pretty unfettered powers to take swift and decisive action. I'd hate to see that ability taken away from the presidency because of the actions of this man.

Remember, everyone. Congress HAS a check coming up. The War Powers Act states that he can only do his own dog and pony show for so long before congress has to sign off on it.

Mike
 
Just a historical footnote: remember Magellan? The brave smart explorer that decided to abet one native king against another...his sailors had armor and muskets, got dropped off into the surf and slaughtered. At least he had the decency to lead his men, unlike Billy...
 
<a href="http://www.realmensch.com/articles4/kosovo2.html">Backfire Bombing</a> in today's Real Mensch says it all, I think.
 
Mike, I don't know how you managed to keep from puking while you thought up your reply. You make some valid points. If we were talking about any other president I would agree with you. But this situation illustrates just how low clinton's personal stock has fallen. He has squandered his presidency. He can't convince anyone that we're doing the right thing over there.
All his lies and bull**** have brought him to where he stands today. He's getting his nose tweaked by a two-bit bully on the world stage.
I want to hear his defenders say it one more time... that character doesn't mean anything. As long as the economy is good, who cares?
Anyone can lead in good times, but when things go to hell we want and need someone we can trust and admire.
God help us all!
 
How did I keep from puking? Easy. You have to seperate the office from the man.

If we have a knee-jerk reaction to this, and rail on and on about abuse of the power of the presidency to wage war, remember....it won't bother him! He'll be gone in 2 years. The next guy, who you may love and trust, will be saddled with those rules. And will likely to our cost.

Remember, everything is a trade-off. If you give the president power and discretion, there is the potential for abuse (As we see now). If you restrict power, there is less possibility of abuse, but a very very real possibility that our ability to ACT will be hampered by the likes of (*insert names of you least favourite bonehead senators here*)

Mike

PS Yes, character counts. Yes, I think Clinton has stained the office of the president. I only hope that we don't get so fed up with his stupidity that we do something we will all regret later.

PPS Ehh...stained. poor choice of words. ;)
 
I agree it is a bad idea for all the reasons stated above. I fear though that the U.S. is now in a war that it will not be able to get out of for a very long time. How long before ground troops are deployed? They will probably go sooner than I care to think.
 
I get the willies (the Slick Willies, at that) from just about anything Bill Clinton does, because, like so many Americans, I've learned that he cannot be trusted, period. I think that informed gunowners are especially able to see that the way he operates is through glib and assertive deception.


[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited March 29, 1999).]
 
Everyone here has made great points. Gwinny came closest to the issue that really irks me.

Our position in Kosovo is exactly the same as the "party line" regarding self defense in America. The view represented by most on TFL is self determination....home and abroad. The Klintonistas counter us in the public spotlight by accusing, "Don't you care about the attrocities (children, police, etc)?".

The fact of the matter is that we do care. But we recognize that the answer is not to disarm a people (Kosovoan or American) and *then* offer to protect them with arms controlled only by governments. The answer is to arm them and let the chips fall as they may. If such were done, here or there, the immediate results might be a bit sanguine. The long term, however, would see a new era of human rights and freedom...in our cities and theirs.

There is no reason our military people should be in harm's way in Yugoslavia. Similarly, there is no reason we should stand idly by and watch. The answer to the neighborhood bully is not guarding the kids, but prepping them.

Finally, I'm a bit tired of hearing "if only we could get Saddaam or Milosovitch out, everthing would be fine." The fact that these people are in power indicates a society that has issues to work out. Give the victims the ability to fight the aggressors and it *will* be worked out.

Rant mode off.
Rich
 
During his presidency, Theodore Roosevelt wanted the send the Great White Fleet on a cruise around the world on what was basically a show the flag endeavour. To impress on the great powers of the time that the US was now a great power also. Congress demurred and refused to appropriate the money. Theodore Roosevelt's response was,"Well, I have the funds to send the fleet halfway around the world-if Congress wants to leave them there it's up to them."

This entire issue is about the character, integrity, and accountability of our elected federal officials. The Constitution reserves the right to declare war to Congress. Yes, the President is the commander in chief. Congress has the power of the purse. The duties of the Commander in Chief consists of responsibility as well as authority. While Willie the Weenie has the legal authority to act he also has responsibilities to the military as well as the people. He is failing in those responsibilities. One of the key principles of successful warfare is national will. I submit that even if the polls are honest (which I doubt)-50% support is not enough national will to sustain a successful war effort. This is just one tiny area where Willie has failed in his duty as CINC.

I'll give an example that has not been mentioned here: the Iranian hostage crisis. Jimmy Carter ruined his presidency over this issue and doomed his re-election hopes. Consider if he had just followed the Constitution, called a joint session of Congress and asked for a declaration of war against Iran. The Iranian actions were undeniably an act of war. All right, suppose Congress refused his request? The onus would have been on Congress for the hostage situation. Carter would have been sitting pretty no matter what happened.

The argument for fast action by the president in crisis is alluring but false. There are very few if any situations where fast action is absolutely critical. Nuclear launches against the US mainland? Yes. Terrorism? They don't act fast anyway-they propose laws and policies that erode the freedoms of all Americans as a response. I wonder why?

I have a friend with an American father and Turkish mother. Raised in America until the age of four. Educated through high school in Turkey in Turkish schools. His parents would only speak English at home with him. As a result he is naturally bilingual in Turkish and English. He speaks Arabic with a Turkish accent. In jeans and flannel shirt he's the perfect image of a Southern good ol' boy. You'd never know he was half Turk. Put a white shirt on him and baggy pants and he doesn't even act like an American. There are many other Americans with his abilities. He tried to work for the CIA. They wouldn't take him. Rather depend on satellites than assets on the ground, I guess. We've got idiots running the place, folks.

Richard Nixon taught me about Republicans. Jimmy Carter taught me about Democrats.

I don't like the military adventurism of Democrat or Republican presidents. I look at something like the bombing of Libya in 1986 where we accomplished the death of Khaddafi's adopted baby girl and McVeigh's bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City and I personally don't see much moral difference.
 
The point here is that this is a civil war. We are interfering with the inner struggles of another nation! I fact our screwing around with their war has already turned it into a one sided bloodbath. This is a make or break issue for Milosovich. If he backs down now, he is politically dead. Don't expect him to back off because he can't. In his view giving in would mean the end of Serbia. He won't allow that to happen.
And don't count out the Kosovars yet. A year ago they were only a rag-tag group of rebels. Now they have proven to be a force to be reckoned with. They are determined fighters protecting their home ground. I agree with Rich, Arm the Kosovars and get the hell out of the way!
 
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