Does anybody carry a SA revolver for defense?

When I'm out hiking, I carry a 4-1/2 inch Colt SAA .357 in a vertical shoulder holster under a vest. I balance it by carrying an El Cheapo Desert Eagle magazine full of reloads on the other side.

Thumbing rounds directly into the loading gate from the mag makes for a surprisingly fast reload.

Relatively light, compact and makes for good peace of mind when you're 15 miles on the back side of Nowhere.

LawDog
 
I just gotta throw my two cents in here...

You really can't put the single acton down due to ammo capacity or reloading speed unless you are using it in a police or military action. Here's my reasoning.

If anyone here thinks they can put down more than two opposing targets(two armed assailants truly bent on getting you), you are sorely mistaken IMNSHO.

I don't think the El Presidente drill is at all realistic, even Sun Tsu wrote that three units could always defeat one in any conflict, and they teach exactly that at Quantico and other military academies.

Three opponents is simply not possible assuming all involved are starting from the same condition of readiness and that all are commited to the conflict.
Two targets is only possible due to the reaction lag time, the third guy will always get off a shot.

Now, the good guy may still survive the assault, but he will be hit, probably several times. Standing your ground and facing three or more targets at the same time will only get you killed.

So, barring any incompetance or other errors, your best two weapons are situational awareness(don't get into the situation) and tactics(block or otherwise prevent one or several of the opponents from attacking), not firepower or ammo capacity or any of the other popular notions.

What I'm getting at here is that it's not the weapon, it's the individual and their tactics that win or lose any fight. There are surely pistols more suited to rapid first and subsequent shots, but the pistol you have with you at the time is the one you will have to use, and I'd rather have one I am familliar with than the hottest of the hot-shoe competition speed shooting rigs. My own choice is for a double action revolver, but there are surely other choices to be had, and really, it doesn't matter anyway.

I just had to get that out in the open. Thanks for reading it. This is an interesting discussion and I hope it continues.
 
SA CCW?

Another interesting point about capacity is that many folks, especially down here in Florida, carry a S&W 5 shot J-frame (he braces himself for the inevitable "Hell, I carry two Desert Eagles in my shorts at all times"). Also, relatively few folks down here seem to carry extra ammo consistently (he braces himself for the howls of "I do, I do"). Thus, the problem down here is really concealment. Now if they started making a titanium sheriff's model.... :) Dennis
 
I've carried NAA Minirevolvers, and shot them often. (My packing days ended over two years ago once I filed suit over CCW. I won't give my Sheriff the satisfaction of permanently disqualifying me via a CCW bust.)

I can fling one shot per second accurately from either of my minis, using the hottest .22Mags available :). I can do the same with a Single-Six in .22Mag, with excellent results.

With practice, I find I can swap out the Ruger's .22Mag cylinder with the .22LR pretty damn quickly. That's with a piece of leather tied to the cylinder pin. It would be even easier with a Vaquero or Blackhawk with a 4 and 5/8ths or 5.5" barrels because the cylinder pin can't come all the way out.

Soooo...score the .357/9mm convertable model, come up with .38+P and 9mm loads with near-equal recoil, shoot six .38s, then swap cylinders to 9mm. Subsequent reloads would come from an old 30rd HiPower mag I've got laying around that didn't feed a HiPower well, but would make a fine SA "speedloader" :D.

It would appear that most of the reload speed issues would evaporate, or at least become less of an issue?

The key to firing SA quickly seems to me to involve "staying calm" and just flinging out sighted aimed fire at a shot a second or a bit better. That's with no hammer-slipping or fanning or other "hammer firing" techniques. Try and go much past that and things get too "frantic". On the upside, at least to me, the "feel" and accuracy would give me the confidence to do headshots, even at some range.

Combined with basic awareness and an urge to duck behind cover at the first hint of "festivities" and I'd feel quite confident with a Blackhawk as primary, MiniMaster as ankle backup and 1.5" barrel .22Mag mini as front-pocket, last ditch surprise.

Plus a knife :).

My minis are pictured here:

http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/jimguns.html

Jim
 
I've carried a 4 5/8" Ruger Blackhawk in a IWB holster in the past. Alot of "experts" thought I was nuts... but hey... I dare to be different.

The first shot is fast, because you've already got your thumb on the hammer to prevent it from snagging on clothing during the draw. And if you cock the hammer with your support hand thumb for all follow up shots, the revolver can be emptied pretty quickly.

The only drawback is reloading under stress. Getting the chambers to line up with the loading gate is where most of the reloading time is wasted.

Other than that, the SA revolver has its merits. In fact, I'd like to see Ruger offer a 7 shot Blackhawk or Vaquero. I just hope they're listening!
 
One way to eliminate much of the "fumble factor" on a recent-vintage Ruger is to have a "freewheel conversion" done, allowing the cylinder to spin in reverse and forward as long as the cylinder gate is open. In stock form, if you roll it "too far" you have to go all the way around to take another shot at that cylinder.

Jim Stroh at http://www.alphaprecisioninc.com/ does a "half cock conversion" for $135 that allows "freewheeling" at half-cock just like an old Colt, yet the transfer bar safety is fully operational so if it slips off of half cock, no biggie as long as you're keeping your finger off the trigger.

Other freewheel conversions operate purely on the loading gate, including (if I remember right) the Linebaugh freewheel setup. Dunno if Linebaugh will do "just that one bit" the way Jim will though. There's probably other conversions but those two have the best rep.

However, I would think that feeding a rimless cartridge out of a semi-auto clip (9mm or .45ACP) should work well even without the freewheel. As long as you can cram the nose in as you're spinning the cylinder, there's no rim to hang up on the loading gate wall if you've stopped the cyliner at a point past exact-half-way. There would also be a slight benefit to .38/.357 as opposed to .45LC/.44Spl/.44Mag due to the latter rims more nearly "filling" the loading gate but the 9mm should be the "slickest" feeding.

Jim
 
This is crazy a da revolver is obsolete enough much less a sa even for woods carry. I live in Alaska and I will tell you if a bear charges you will only get one shot standing up with a handgun the follow up will be on the ground with one arm if your lucky. Try shooting an sa one handed while fighting for your life against somthing furry. Trust me for woods the DA revolver is king in at least 44 mag. For the cities the semi auto rules.
PAT
 
badgerarms
I point guns at people on a monthly basis and I have not yet had to shoot one. The are times when the threat of lethal force is justified without the follow through. Holding someone at gun point is acceptable. As a police office it is common. If you shoot before you at least warn the guy your going to shoot if he doesn't stop is not good for you in court and with your maker.
PAT
 
There is an article in a recent issue of National Geographic about a very, very small and isolated town in Texas oil country. (The issue is home and I'm not so I'm short on details.) The article shows a photo of the town sheriff and he is carrying a single action revolver. He probably figures that prolonged gun battles are unlikely.
 
SA CCW

Folks: This is going to stir up some folks, but I believe if you can figure out how to have it handy (the CCW/size issue) when you need it, and if you're handy with it when you use it, then the SA revolver will serve the CIVILIAN for self defense as well as any other handgun and better than some of 'em. We all tend to play "what if" games with each other and with ourselves in our own heads. That ain't bad but it can lead us pretty far astray of reality. We also have probably each seen hundreds of "armed citzen" self defense stories. Hard to find even one where the citizen needed to reload, hard to find even one where their was more than 2 BGs (especially BGs who stayed committed to the assault once 1 or 2 of their friends were down). Have you noticed how fast and accurate you can get the first shot of with a SA and a little practice? Also SAs in .357, .44, .45 or whatever magnum or big bore caliber tend to look pretty scary from the wrong end view. Just my opinion, but if you got it when you need it, and you've practiced with it enough to be comfortable, I think it would work fine and you wouldn't have any need to save the last bullet for yourself. :) Dennis
 
Which SA would you pick for carry?

This discussion has got more detailed than I though. I am pretty much agreeing that reload speed isn't my major concern, since I can't imagine many situations where I could spare 5 seconds to load a DA revolver, but not 10 sec to reload an SA. The main issue seems to be quick repeat shots, especially one-handed, and I will concede that particular point. Does anyone have any knowledge as to how much more durable or dependable an SA is?

I suppose the ideal SA would have a 3-4" bbl, extracting rod, "free cylinder spin", compact frame and grip. I'm thinking either 45ACP or 40S&W would be excellent cartridges, if I have heard correctly as to how these rimless is as easy or easier than rimmed. Anybody have any good suggestions to try on for concealability potential? Are "Cowboy Action" revolvers, American or Italian, of sufficient quality for carry? Any particularly good small and cut-downable models?

Take care all,
-LCpl Matthew Boris
 
So ya gotta be a cowboy, I'm sure by now that you've figured out that the reason Colt Ps used to be a dime a dozen was the 1911? Anyway Matt, the smallest would be a birdshead 4in barreled Colt or clone. Any shorter and no ejector, Cimmaron has the best clones. Several smiths can rework the Colt P to the coil springs instaed of the fragile flat springs. Bob Mundon is very good. I'd suggest the classic .45 Colt or .44 Special over the rimless rounds or order a convertible cylinder? The Ruger is a far stronger gun but heavier, they did make a Sheriff model..henry
 
LCpl Matthew Boris


IF it takes you 5 seconds to reload a da revolver your slow. It should take 2 to 3 seconds with a speed loader. Single actions are antiques. I enjoy shooting my colt coyboy but a defense gun it is not. Getting rapid follow up shots with an sa revolver is tough unless your Bob Mundin.
Stick to Auto's or DA revolvers at the very least.
PAT
 
The Rugers are a big step ahead of the "Spagetti Colts" because they have a modern transfer-bar safety. Size and weight is a hair more than the "true SAA or Italian clones" but with a shorter barrel and a bird's head grip, functional size can brought down at least to K-Frame territory.

Here's some pics from Gary Reeder's site ( http://www.reedercustomguns.com/single.htm ):

Tombstone.jpg

This "Tombstone Classic" is $850 with a full action job, custom barrel length (shortened cylinder pin on the shorter barrel length to allow proper ejection) and a nice polish.

You could get something functionally similar by putting a $150 bird's-head grip frame and grip set on yourself to a 4 and 5/8ths barrel stocker.

gamblers_classic.jpg


This is something else entire, the most radically chopped-down Ruger available. It represents an extreme :).

Personally, I like the idea of taking a Blackhawk in blue, 4 and 5/8ths tube and .357/9mm convertible and adding a mildly smaller grip as in the top pic or similar. If I'm right, cramming 9mm out of a semi-auto clip should be an extremely reliable method of feeding it. I'd see how it handles and shoots at that point, worst case add one of the freewheel conversions and maybe Jim Stroh's fairly cheap accuracy booster "Taylor Throating".

Heck ya :).

Jim
 
What the hey, I think I have two pennies here someplace...

355sigfan:
Gee Pat; 9mm, wheelguns, 357SIG, .40 cal accuracy... You really need to learn to develop strong opinions on things. ;)

Well, since it's true-confessions time I'll admit to carrying my old 4 5/8" .357 Mag Blackhawk in a crossdraw rig every now and again in the gunshop back when I used to manage the place. Between the strategically located guns behind the counter and the fact that I usually had one or two armed employees, plus various & sundry CCW-holding regulars and on- and/or off-duty LEO friends, I felt as comfortable with my .357 smokewagon in its crossdraw as I did with my G23 in its Bianchi PDQ. Also, my current .44 Mag Bisley Vaquero has been carried crossdraw under a coat with Triton's .44 Mag Lite loads a couple of times if I was going to be in a particularly low-threat area. I'm fast enough with the draw and accurate and fast enough with the wheelgun to feel as comfortable with the idea of facing the typical lone strong-arm rapist or mugger as with most of my other guns. Besides, if the six rounds from the .44 didn't work, I'd cover my retreat with my Tomcat rather than trying to reload the hawgleg.

[Edited by Tamara on 11-25-2000 at 07:36 AM]
 
i am getting to this thread a little late but here goes.
my standard outdoor carry gun, in areas that allow open carry, is a .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk with stag grips and a 7.5" barrel. i carry it in a open top ballistic nylon belt holster in a cross draw posistion. i have modified the holster so that a leather thong with a loop tied in it placed over the hammer is the retaining strap. i keep it loaded with Federal classic 225 grain soft lead hollow points for self defense against humans and soft skinned predators like feral dogs or mountain lions.
if i am hunting deer or bear or think a larger target my require lead therapy i go stoked with maximum hand loads topped by 250 grain XTP hollowpoints or 300 grain hard cast SWC's.
i do not feel underarmed in the least with this weapon. indeed, in the open country i hunt and camp in it is a real comfort to know any critter that walks, runs, slithers or crawls on four legs or two would really hate a dose of .45 Colt. it has the sledgehammer quaility that is generally lacking in all but the most exotic of semiautos.
 
I've carried a 6.5in. Ruger Blackhawk .357/9mm on the hip in cold weather when I can wear my big winter coat to cover it. I've had it for a long time now and have shot it plenty enough to feel confident with it.

Keep in mind too that, as we gun nuts like to point out, in only 1-2% of the cases where a gun is employed in self-defense is the gun actually fired, either at a person directly or as a warning. Most of the time the sight of a gun and/or the demonstrated intent to use it is thankfully enough to defuse the situation. So, in the vast majority of cases, all the points about slow reloading, slow follow-up shots, etc. are moot. This is not to say that these aren't important points to consider, just that odds are that they will not factor in to any one particular case. With that in mind, I like to think that the sight of the 6.5in Blackhawk with the .357 inch bore would make most common punks rethink their intentions, being in my opinion more intimidating a sight than even many other firearms might be. Just my thoughts.
 
I used to, only because that was all I had. I was working security (officially unarmed). But I will tell you that there times when it was comforting to know that that Ruger Single Six was under that car seat!!!;)
 
Carried SA as duty weapon

At one time I worked at a Sheriff's Office that was very concerend with the image each officer presented. At the time we did not wear uniforms. We wore western clothes similar to what you may have seen on "Walker, Texas Ranger". The sheriff discouraged us from carrying semi-autos. The only semi-autos most officers considered carrying back then were 1911s and Browning HPs. The sheriff was afraid that someone would be offended by carrying them cocked. Most of us carried double action revolvers. One officer carried a 5.5" Colt New Frontier 44 Special. I carried one or two Ruger blackhawks in 45 Colt. When I carried one SA, I always carried a back up gun and carried spare ammo for the back up. Usually it was an airweight 38. I of course always had a rifle and a shotgun in the car.

As far as the guy who said "three will always beat one", remember most of the gunfights LEOs are in are with criminals, not soldiers or terrorists. When they see you blow a fist sized hole through their buddy, they will either surrender or flee. Most criminals don't have any dedication to their cause. They know they can just surrender and get bailed out of jail and then abscond. There are a few out there who will stand and fight, but they are few and far between.

I got pretty fast and accurate with those old blackhawks. An old time LEO taught me that on an old model Ruger or a SAA, you never ran it empty. After firing firing four rounds, he would hold the gun in his left hand and open the loading gate and shoot left handed. Then everytime he fired a round, he would kick out an empty and reload that chamber. That way his gun always had one or two rounds in it. If the bad guys tried to rush him, he would just draw his other gun.

It seems to me that when a person carries a revolver they seem to be more inclined to make every round count. A lot of guys I've seen with Semi-autos seem to just "spray and pray". That's not good in an urban environment. Also, I always feel confident with a revolver. It is quick to get into action, points better than most autos and is utterly reliable and more powerful. Today I carry a 629 Mountain Gun with a keltec 32 and one extra 10 round mag for a back up. LEOs have been unlucky enough to have the bad guy hit their gun in a gunfight. A backup gun is always a good insurance policy. I also carry a Cold Steel Safekeeper II on the offhand side of my gunbelt. If someone tries to get my primary weapon away from me, I can grab the knife quicker than I can reach in my pocket for my backup gun. The knife doesn't ever run out of ammo.
 
WWWWEeeeeeellll.......

dunno that I would do on a regular basis, but I do know that the fans are out there. Mernickle Holsters even makes a high ride concealment rig and belt for Colts and Clones.
I know that I own some interesting peices that have some defense promise. My 8 3/8" S&W Model 29 .44 Mag rides considerably well in an Uncle Mikes vertical shoulder holster. Pretty handy in my area for bear/elk.
SA is an interesting thought. Wonder if there would be any legal ramifications?
 
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