Does a felon get to decide who gets the guns he can no longer own?

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Legal issue. Get a lawyer.
He may not have the right to possess them but you don't have ownership rights and may not be legally able to keep them.
That's called a conundrum. More commonly known as a rock and a hard place.
 
"If YOU posess the guns, they were TRANSFERRED to you, and YOU are the owner." "

Nonsense. Read what the ATF says about loaning guns.

John
 
Nonsense. Read what the ATF says about loaning guns.


Absolutely IS allowed for legal sporting purposes, as is a firearms rental.

Caveat: This is intrepreted by the BATFE as a loan or rental and return to owner "same day, same place", and "might" not be a legal problem from any practical standpoint for a guy checking into a guide service and renting a shotgun for a week of dove hunting. Generally the guide services handle the guns anyway... so it's a moot point for the most part. I can tell you that at Gunsite, a pistol rental is checked out in the AM and is returned to the armory in the PM.

It is not a statute to rely on for leaving it with a friend for a (day, week, month, year, or "until I get out of jail") without ensuring that you are not TRANSFERRING IT to a prohibited person, or in violation of any other Federal or State law.


We can argue this until the cows come home, but there IS a point at which it's no longer clear that the person handing over the gun is really "loaning" it. I've "lent" a Steyr SSG for the last 20 years to an uncle, and I can have it back anytime I ask for it, but I am darned sure that the BATFE would consider it a transfer....



Willie


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In this situation the federal laws on lending are not an issue. The transferr took place in the same state between two adults. The son owned the guns as an adult, so issues of child transferr also do not apply. Within the state of VA I can certainly lend a person a gun without the assumption that they now own it. Things are a little trickier across state lines as the transferr would have to go through a FFL, but I would still think that a trasferr of possesion can take place without a transferr of ownership. When I sent my Glock in for repair, possesion was transferred to Glock but ownership certainly was not. I can see loaning my brother-in law a gun, he lives in another state, although in that case transferrs both ways would have to go through a FFL.

The OP cannot send the guns back to his son as his son can not own them. I think the question of whether or not a felon can direct were the weapons are sent would require the input of a lawyer.

One question is what happens in a normal case? A person is convicted of a felony and owns guns. Do the police just seize them and keep them, is a relative allow to take possesion, etc.?
 
If leaving a gun overnight with someone is not a 'transfer', then why does a Gunsmith have to log the 'acquisition' in, and the 'disposition' out, if he keeps a gun overnight?

Just wondering...
 
why does a Gunsmith have to log the 'acquisition' in, and the 'disposition' out, if he keeps a gun overnight?
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'Cause he's doing it as a business. Same reason a gun dealer has to have a FFL but you don't need one to sell a gun you no longer want in a F2F transaction. ;)
 
Salmoneye If leaving a gun overnight with someone is not a 'transfer', then why does a Gunsmith have to log the 'acquisition' in, and the 'disposition' out, if he keeps a gun overnight?
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Why? Because Federal law requires it.

You can leave it with him at 8am to be repaired, go to work, come back at 6pm and he can hand you the firearm.......no 4473/NICS required.

This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the transfer of firearms between nonlicensees.
 
"Within the state of VA I can certainly lend a person a gun without the assumption that they now own it."

Once again, I think we have discussed the difference between "ownership" which deals with the legality of contracts, IE: "money exchanged" and "posession", which is the question regarding state and federal laws regarding the "exchange of a firearm between one party and another".


Let's stick to the second question for the following:


Hypothetical: I am going to "loan" you a firearm. For how long can we persuade a cop or DA that it was an actual loan and that I did not transfer it to you?


To shoot a cylinder of six at a target? Sure. Except maybe in New York. Or maybe elsewhere too.

To hunt with for the day? Hmmm.. Feds say OK. State law dictate also. In NJ you would go to jail for this *for certain*. All the cop would need to read is "No person may posess a firearm without <fill in the blanks>". It's a transfer. Elsewhere? Legal Mileage may vary. In Texas? They could probably care less.


To hunt with for the week? Hmm... do you allow your buddy to take it home with him? Getting grey here... refer to state law...


To take to Montana for the big hunt? Getting iffy...


To take home and keep for a year? Uhh... no.



Guys: At some time it's no longer a loan, it's a transfer. I cannot believe that people are so obtuse as to fail to get this. In some states a Transfer has no real formal procedure, just "make sure he's from the same state, is of age, and is not known to you to be a prohibited person". In other states it's a BIG DEAL involving permits, paperwork, and mandatory reports. This is where communications between us here has broken down. In many states we don't even think about it... still does not make it untrue. Virginia? Probably at the far right of the "gun transfer hassle factor scale". Transfers are no biggie, in fact folks there don't even likely recognize that one has occured. But loan a gun overnight in California? Forget it.





"I swear it's not mine, officer... I was just holding it for a friend"... :rolleyes:



Willie


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I think some people do loan and/or allow a family member to store(if that is the correct word)a firearm(s) while they serve overseas in the military or some years as active duty military. I guess whatever the legality or commonplace on such a thing, technically the same could be done for "johnny" when he does a stint at the pen as long as his stint wasn't for a felony conviction(s) of course but rather for misdemeanors.

I am just saying sometimes citizens have to travel and/or live somewhere where weapons aren't allowed by law(washington DC in college, the barracks as a younger enlisted soldier on base, the chain gang:D, etc
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
State law is the applicable thing to look at.

Since these "household" agreements are just intrastate "transactions" for lack of a better term, it's not a Federal legal question. There are 50 states, and probably 200 answers depending on what authority you ask.



Willie


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Willie Sutton said:
Hypothetical: I am going to "loan" you a firearm. For how long can we persuade a cop or DA that it was an actual loan and that I did not transfer it to you?

To take home and keep for a year? Uhh... no.
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No?

How about, "Yes."

As it happens, I work with a young man who recently obtained his carry permit. So did his wife. Neither of them has had much experience with firearms and they expressed an interest in getting in some range time to practice and get a feel for what's comfortable before spending money on one or more handguns they might soon decide aren't right for them.

The wife, in particular, is very slender, not very strong, and is greatly intimidated by centerfire handguns. But she shoots a .22 pretty well. I own a Ruger 22/45 that I dislike intensely and never use, so I offered to lend it to them for the wife to use as practice while she becomes more accustomed to shooting. Being generally law-abiding types, we agreed that the offer was contingent upon legality.

So I called the state agency that issues carry permits and runs the background checks for gun sales. I described the situation as exactly as I could, including that at the time I made the call the kids were still awaiting final approval and issuance of their permits. The state told me that once they had their permits I could legally lend them the firearm ... without transfer papers.

Of course, there are 49 other states out there.
 
As it happens, I work with a young man who recently obtained his carry permit. So did his wife. Neither of them has had much experience with firearms and they expressed an interest in getting in some range time to practice and get a feel for what's comfortable before spending money on one or more handguns they might soon decide aren't right for them.

The wife, in particular, is very slender, not very strong, and is greatly intimidated by centerfire handguns. But she shoots a .22 pretty well. I own a Ruger 22/45 that I dislike intensely and never use, so I offered to lend it to them for the wife to use as practice while she becomes more accustomed to shooting. Being generally law-abiding types, we agreed that the offer was contingent upon legality.

So I called the state agency that issues carry permits and runs the background checks for gun sales. I described the situation as exactly as I could, including that at the time I made the call the kids were still awaiting final approval and issuance of their permits. The state told me that once they had their permits I could legally lend them the firearm ... without transfer papers.

Of course, there are 49 other states out there.
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True on that. As stated there other states and the laws might be different in those states. For example in Oklahoma where I am as long as they meet the criteria for being a law abiding person then you can loan them your firearm. Does not matter if they have their CC or not. They just have to follow the laws while in possession of a firearm. As always find out the law where you live.
 
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Salmoneye If leaving a gun overnight with someone is not a 'transfer', then why does a Gunsmith have to log the 'acquisition' in, and the 'disposition' out, if he keeps a gun overnight?
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Why? Because Federal law requires it.

You can leave it with him at 8am to be repaired, go to work, come back at 6pm and he can hand you the firearm.......no 4473/NICS required.

This has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the transfer of firearms between nonlicensees.
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I am well aware of the fact that Federal Law requires it...That's why I asked...But taking a gun to a Smith is not a 'transfer'...

You state that I can leave and come back in the same day with no "4473/NICS required"...Neither of those have anything to do with the scenario I posed...The Smith is only required to log in/out in his 'Bound Book', and no 4473/NICS is required as long as I am the one that dropped off the gun and picked it up the next day...

Q: Is an ATF Form 4473 required when a gunsmith returns a repaired firearm?

No, provided the firearm is returned to the person from whom it was received.

[27 CFR 478.124(a)]

My real question is why does ATF consider it fine to leave the gun for the business day, but not fine to leave it overnight (unless logged)...

It reminds me of the 'lending for a day' issue that was being discussed earlier...

At the very least, it certainly appears that BATF finds leaving a gun with someone overnight to be much more serious than leaving it with them for a few hours during the day...Business, or not...

I'm simply trying to grasp everyone's understanding of the laws so that I never run afoul of them...
 
"if leaving a gun overnight with someone is not a 'transfer', then why does a Gunsmith have to log the 'acquisition' in, and the 'disposition' out, if he keeps a gun overnight? "

The gunsmith is in business. The gunsmith has a license issued by the regulating authority. The bound book is required by said regulating authority. Follow the regs or lose your license. Surely you know this.

Surely you also know that us common non-gunsmith folk don't have an FFL and aren't bound by those ATF regs.

My uncle borrowed a Marlin .444 from his brother in law and hunted with it for 7 years. When his BIL wanted it back it was returned. There isn't a court in the country that would find this to be anything other than a loan. That's just one example.

John
 
"We can argue this until the cows come home"

No we can't. You appear to have no understanding of the law. You seem to be making this stuff up as you go along.

John
 
My uncle borrowed a Marlin .444 from his brother in law and hunted with it for 7 years. When his BIL wanted it back it was returned. There isn't a court in the country that would find this to be anything other than a loan. That's just one example.
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And if your Uncle had broken a game law, or committed a crime with it, the 'system' would not have given a whit if his BIL had asked for it back when it was confiscated...

My question is, at what point does it stop being a 'loan' or is in another's constructive 'possession'...

A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes,

How long is 'temporary' according to the ATF?...Is that a week?...A month?...Or is it overnight for everyone like it is in the case of a licensee?

As I said...Not looking to argue...Trying to understand...
 
A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes,

How long is 'temporary' according to the ATF?...Is that a week?...A month?...Or is it overnight for everyone like it is in the case of a licensee?

As I said...Not looking to argue...Trying to understand...
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You ask a valid question, but it just isn't that simple(as you probably already guessed). A judge or a lawyer on TFL could probably give a better answer(especially a judge maybe). Law is very simple sometimes and also very complex. There are grey areas that can teeter totter in the courtroom before you have an answer(one reason why historical and/or past cases are cited).

Another example is a cash loan or cash verbal or even written contract. Someone can admit to a loan and to owing money, but their legal contract might say they will "pay when they can" or they will pay "when they have enough money to do so". A judge is going to side with the plaintiff and explain that a loan isn't indefinite, it has been shown the money is owed, you have had a reasonable time to pay the debt, and you need to pay the money.

Another different example is punishments. You can't give punishments to people whether thru court systems or even a higher ranking soldier in the military saying as an example: "well, this is going to stay this way until I see changes and/or until I am satisfied". This does happen but it is not correct especially with official punishments. The IG would stop this.

It is up to a judge to determine when that loan is no longer a loan anymore..............sooner than later would be my guess(so the longer it has been the easier it is to sayso I mean).

*wasn't trying to focus on courts; it just sortof fit with the example...court isn't always necessary...I myself don't enjoy going to court unless needbe*

***another answer is calling it in stolen if you have to:cool:. I mean someone borrows a car. OK, "how come you still have it 2 1/2 days later?" states the cop to the person in cuffs...
 
IMO: Its unlikely the former wife or son of the OP would sue. Lawsuits between folks living in different states usually involve big ticket items. Methinks very few judges would hand guns over to a convicted felon or to his mother in whose house the felon lives.
 
And if your Uncle had broken a game law, or committed a crime with it, the 'system' would not have given a whit if his BIL had asked for it back when it was confiscated...
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Seizure of evidence or criminal property has nothing to do with who owns it. Ask the thousands of car owners who's BILs have had their cars siezed from a drug bust whilst it wasn't in their possession.;)

It is up to a judge to determine when that loan is no longer a loan anymore..............sooner than later would be my guess(so the longer it has been the easier it is to sayso I mean).
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^^ This. Its a civil property dispute. In the op's case the son doesn't have a case. The son will have a hard time explaining to the judge that he gave the guns to his mother before conviction but they have been in his father's possession and separate household for so long. Not to mention that there is the whole obvious possibility of access to the guns if they were in his mothers possession.
 
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