Does a felon get to decide who gets the guns he can no longer own?

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I am also uncertain that you can leave firearms with someone for a period of time and not relinquish possession. Last time I left the US I gave all my guns to a buddy and told him legally they were his, but I hoped he would give them back if I returned.

Locked safe might work.

I don' have any legal citations to back this up.
 
"Thats fine for the feds but a state's laws can say otherwise."


None do. And endless speculative nonsense is not helping the OP solve his problem.


That's why old Willie is "cutting thru the crap"... Facts are facts and nonsense is nonsense.


Fact: You cannot give sole posession of a firearm, unsupervised, for an indefinate period of time, to another person in any state and not have it be considered a "Transfer", "Gift", "Sale", or whatever other words a statute may use to indicate a permanent change in the ownership of the firearm. Any such transfer needs to be done in accordance with State Law if between two individuals, and in accordance with applicable Federal Law at all times. No state permits a transfer to a convicted felon. The subject firearms are in the custody of the current posessor, to whom they were transferred. Any further debate is on if they were "gifted" at no cost, or if some amount of money is still demanded. Sans any written contract specifying a sum owed, the "old owner" is pretty much out of luck.


Another opined:

"And it's possible for the firearms to have never been transferred in any manner if they were stored by the son with the intent to retrieve them later."


He better have stored them in a locked safe then, with nobody but himself holding the combination. Otherwise they are not stored... they are transferred. You cannot give a firearm to someone to take home and keep and not have it fall under the statutes that are applicable to the jurisdiction regarding the transfer of a firearm. Have a little chat with your friendly BATFE folks and your local AG or State Police and I think you'll come to realize the error of your logic. Note that in most jurisdictions, no formal transfer is required, IE: no paperwork, receipt, etc. The mere fact that the transferer is satisfied with the legality of the transfer (same state, of age, not know to be a felon, etc) is sufficient. I've "lent" firearms to friends for testing, etc., but I knew at the moment that he was now the sole posessor, owner, transferee, or however you wish to define it. Often this is a casual "hey, shoot this for a week and let me know how you like it". That's legal IF (a+b+C) are true (same state, age, not known felon, etc). But it's not a loan. Ditto if I say "hey, I am going to the desert for a year, hold onto this for me". That's not recognized anywhere as other than a transfer and all laws apply. The "loaning" of a firearm for sporting purposes quote that you cited above is taken by the BATFE to be "under direct suopervision of the lender, and for the time period of the activity", meaning "same day, same place" for hunting.


Segue... Try "storing" your NFA things by handing them to your Mom to keep safe and sound for a year or so and try explaing to the BATFE and your local LEO's that it was not a transfer after your Mom is in handcuffs... :eek:


"you don't understand ATF regulations or Federal law any better than you do common law"

Sadly... for you... it seems that I understand the ATF regs and state law regarding firearms transfers better than you do. I am also an FFL, a collector of NFA goodies, and I have not just jumped off the apple cart. When a firearm leaves my immediate control, either as an individual or as a licensee, it's a transfer.


I fully agree that the commercial law part of dealing with the financial terms of the transaction are arguable, but not the fact that the transfer in the eyes of firearms law was complete the day he left the house and left them behind. There are really two things at play here, the OP's question revolved around the legality of how to handle it as a firearms posession and transfer issue, not one of contracts. I concede the point on the possibility of disputing the terms of the transfer but not that a transfer has been completed.



Smile,


Willie

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Possession =/= ownership.

I have owned my grandfather's .22 caliber rifle since he died in 1972. For most of the time between then and last year the rifle was in the possession of a cousin in another state. We kept hoping I'd get a chance to drive out there and pick it up, but it never happened and, since my cousin is getting on in years, we finally just boxed it up and sent it to me through a pair of FFLs.

The FFLs transferred physical possession to me, but ownership was mine since 1972.

(Before anyone starts in about how FFLs aren't necessary for inherited firearms, the rifle was not listed in his will and I was not a named heir, so that provision of Federal law did not apply.)
 
Wow! Thanks for all of the replies. This seems to be an interesting topic. For now, I'm going to consider the guns mine and use and enjoy them accordingly. Noelf2 had a neat idea during a PM conversation we were having - hold on to them for the grand-kids (assuming of course, that they turn out to have good character). So they'll stay put in my safe.

I am going to consult an attorney just for my own peace of mind. Can't hurt.

Pahoo: "fxdrider
Have to ask if by your measure, your son's attitude has changed since he has gone through his latest adventure? I suspect, the answer, is NO. ....

Pahoo, I'm in Virginia, and you are quite correct - if anything his attitude has gotten worse. He's had two years of nothing to do but talk with other inmates about better ways of "getting away with it". Now his arrogant ass is more emboldened than ever. I think some people have the character to learn from their mistakes and try to do better after they've paid their time. Others, like him, blame everyone else for their problems and refuse to better themselves in life, continuing on the road of bad choices.

In one case that I know of, if he is even caught with a bullet, his dumb butt goes back to jail. I understand you trying to save your son but that's up to him, in the long run. ...

You are correct here as well - it IS up to him. I've done all I can. As the old saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

It all comes down to a matter of trust ....

Agreed - and trust flew out the window with him a loooonnnnggggg time ago.
I've always taught (or tried to teach) my kids that trust is everything. It's very easy to lose and takes a long time to rebuild. My daughter got the message - my son...not so much.


Thanks again everyone.
 
While nothing I can add to the legal discussion ... I must commend the father here for sticking to his guns (no pun intended) rather than making excuses for the ne'er-do-well offspring...

Folks often ask me if I am serious about my absolutist views on trust, honor and integrity from everyone doing business with me including my kids... And, yes, there is ALOT of business to be had 'tween young 20's offspring and their parents...

My reply to the inquisitive... "IN A HEARTBEAT..."

Brent
 
The FFLs transferred physical possession to me, but ownership was mine since 1972.

Eh, no. While you may have had an understanding with your cousin regarding the rifle, the cousin was the legal owner of the firearm until the actual transfer into your possession. You guys can argue this all day if you want, but you'd still be wrong.
 
Attitude and effort, feed each other !!!

if anything his attitude has gotten worse. He's had two years of nothing to do but talk with other inmates about better ways of "getting away with it".
I can understand your pain and relate to a simular story when I asked a friend of mine, if his son's attitude had changed since being released from prison. His reply was; not really as the son had stated, that being in prison, wasn't all that bad. ..... :eek:

the cousin was the legal owner of the firearm until the actual transfer into your possession.
That is correct !!!

Be Safe !!!
 
Willie Sutton
Fact: You cannot give sole posession of a firearm, unsupervised, for an indefinate period of time, to another person in any state and not have it be considered a "Transfer", "Gift", "Sale", or whatever other words a statute may use to indicate a permanent change in the ownership of the firearm.
Uh......who said that?
According to the OP, the son lived with him for a short while....this is when the son left the firearms at the OP's son.




Another opined:

"And it's possible for the firearms to have never been transferred in any manner if they were stored by the son with the intent to retrieve them later."


He better have stored them in a locked safe then, with nobody but himself holding the combination. Otherwise they are not stored... they are transferred.
Please cite the ATF regulation requiring a locked safe. Heck cite any ATF regulation that mentions "locked safe". Ain't there buddy.

Would you have us believe that gun club members who store their firearms at the gun range/club are actually transferring those firearms? More nonsense.




You cannot give a firearm to someone to take home and keep....
OP never said his son gave him the firearms to take home.


The "loaning" of a firearm for sporting purposes quote that you cited above is taken by the BATFE to be "under direct suopervision of the lender, and for the time period of the activity", meaning "same day, same place" for hunting.
No kidding Captain Obvious. I was responding to the post where Stressfire said "There is no such thing as loaning a firearm."





"you don't understand ATF regulations or Federal law any better than you do common law"

Sadly... for you... it seems that I understand the ATF regs and state law regarding firearms transfers better than you do. I am also an FFL, a collector of NFA goodies, and I have not just jumped off the apple cart. When a firearm leaves my immediate control, either as an individual or as a licensee, it's a transfer.
Really?
Sorry bub, here's a few instances where that doesn't equate to a transfer.
Storing firearms at your gun club- not a transfer. How about shipping a firearm to yourself in care of a friend in another state for sporting purposes- not a transfer.
Yeah, you really know the regs I'll give you that.

NJgunowner the cousin was the legal owner of the firearm until the actual transfer into your possession.
No sir. "Ownership" is a different concept than "possession".

As none of us are privy to how Aguila Blanca became the owner, we'll have to take his word that he is.

The belief that the person in possession magically becomes the owner is not codified in Federal law or ATF regulation.

example: You agree to buy a firearm from a forum member, you send him $$$$, he ships the firearm to your FFL for transfer. You are the owner, you just do not have possession until you complete a 4473/NICS. If you are denied by NICS the firearm does not become the property of the FFL.....he didn't buy the gun. It's not the property of the seller, he has his $$$ and completed his end of the deal. YOU are the owner.

The gun is your property but cannot be transferred until NICS gives you a proceed. If you choose to not appeal your NICS denial, you and the dealer must agree to a method for disposition of the firearm. Typically dealers will not allow a local sale due to the possibility of a straw sale, but may allow you to list it as a consignment, online auction or sale to the dealer.
 
throwing a thin dime in the pot here. Sir, I would never get in between your business with you and your son. Life is short though...no one says you have to do anything magical, but hating(not saying you hate him) and/or choosing to not get along etc might take more work then forgiving. I would hazard a guess that each of you has reasons for "having an attitude" with the other...

also, people can change and clean their act up, but I would agree it isn't your job to attempt to wait for this to happen.
 
"According to the OP, the son lived with him for a short while....this is when the son left the firearms at the OP's son"

You mean when he abandoned them?

:rolleyes:



OK:

If you allow a firearm to be posessed by another, save for the *temporary loan or rental for sporting purposes* (same day, same venue loan), without direct supervision, you need to have complied with all of the laws of transfer under applicable state and federal law.

I don't see what is so hard to understand about this.


You can leave firearms in a storage facility and not "transfer" them if the storage is secured in such a way as to make the firearms inaccessable to others.

You cannot "hand them to your brother in law and leave them for a year" and claim that you have not transferred them.


Example of legitimate offsite storage:

I leave my legally owned NFA weapons in another state where my NFA Trust is set up. For security reasons, my weapons are stored in the facility of an FFL. That FFL and I met with the BATFE and the dictum that we were placed under was that the arms must be kept in a safe, to which I and the benficiary of the trust hold the combination, and that under no circumstances was the FFL who "stores the safe" to have access to the materials stored within. Note that this FFL is not a SOT.

"Storing" a firearm with a friend is seen by the BATFE as a transfer. It is seen that way by state law. "Ownership" in the "contracts" sense is a different subject than "transfer of possession". My error, which you have not dropped, and for which I now correct myself (although it seems obvious to most others) is that I incorrectly used the word "owned" rather than "transferred to" in an earlier post. Ownership may indeed be different that posession, as I'll offer with another analogy using an NFA weapon. Recently bought a Thompson. Shipped from the sellers dealer to my dealer. I am the owner. Tax stamp not yet in hand, the recipient of the shipment (SOT Dealer) cannot transfer it to me, although I am the owner. If he sells it to another person, I can press my point for conversion, and to this I stipulate. But the person to whom the Thompson has been "transferred" is that SOT and a second transfer is needed to bring it into my posession. If he handed it to me to "store"... well, we would all be off in the clink.


Transfer of Posession: BATFE and/or State Law.

Transfer of Ownership: Contracts 101.


Two different subjects.


Can we agree to this?



So.. scenario: Two pairs of litigants are in court, and they are there to deal with gun sales gone wrong. Let's play the game:


I explain to the Judge that My Brother handed me his .45, I agreed to buy it for $25.00 and agreed at the time that I will pay him next Friday. I took it it home. Note that the TRANSFER at that time has been conducted. The next day he gets arrested for beating his wife, and is placed under a restraining order. I know this and I recognize that he is now a prohibited person to whom I cannot transfer a firearm. Strangely enough, that same day I am laid off and now I am broke. Come Friday I cannot pay. He asks for his property back. I can't pay, and I can't give it back. I agree to all of the above to the Judge. What's the result?

This is a Breach of Contract. I cannot satisfy the contract financially, and legally I cannot return his property. Meanwhile... I am the transferee of a legally conducted firearms transfer *under federal and state firearms law* and as far as that part of the law is concerned, it's a fait accompli.

Likely outcome? Judge orders firearm transferred to a dealer, with proceeds to go to my brother. I am ordered to make good any difference between the contractual agreed price and what he realizes from the dealer, plus costs.

BANG goes the gavel.


Next case (this one):


The OP is the posessor of a pair of firearms that he posesses legally under state and federal law, it being that they were transferred to a person of age, not a felon, and not known to the transferring individual as being a prohibited person.

The claim is that the father now should give the firearms back, or receive compensation.

The burden of proof on the son revolves around his ability to prove to satisfaction of the court that there is a remaining financial liability still owned by the Father, to which the Father says "what contract? Show me."

Judge looks at the son and says "show us the contract". Son stares at toes and makes excuses. "Well, Dad gave it to me when I was ten" (not a Transfer under Law.... etc., etc. )


The dispute is not even in equipoise. Felon on one side, Dad on the other... Balance of Justice... swings over to the side of not meeting burden of proof... sorry kiddo. Dad wins.


BANG. Dismissed. Next case.



Maybe not... but...probably.



"No kidding Captain Obvious"

First rule of debate: Devolve to Ad Hominum and you lose your argument even if you are right. It turns out that we are essentially in agreement. Why lower yourself to name calling? It's not gentlemanly.




Willie


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There are rifles. If the son was living with the father, obviously they were residents of the same state. Many states allow face-to-face transfers with no paperwork.

IF there was a transfer.

The facts offered so far do not indicate whether, in fact, either rifle ever left the father's residence. If the father gave the .22 to his son when sonny was "a child," the child could not have legally owned a firearm. So it was, at that time, the father's rifle and there was an "understanding" between father and son. We don't know if there was ever a formalized transfer once the child became adult enough to own a firearm.

The same may apply to the other, except that the mother was the donor. If her gift occurred when the son was a child, and when the parents were still married, the other rifle may also never have left the father's residence.
 
Willie Sutton
"According to the OP, the son lived with him for a short while....this is when the son left the firearms at the OP's son"
You mean when he abandoned them?
Abandoned?
Jumping to conclusions? if the OP believes his son abandon the firearms he should immediately comply with his state law regarding abandon property.

And surely one does not abandon the property or possession of someone else, correct?

Every state has laws regarding "abandoned property".......Texas sure as heck does, and simply leaving the firearms at someones elses house does not meet the legal requirements of "abandonment". Most states that have abandon property laws also have requirements for the person possessing to serve legal notice before taking ownership. usually there must be a time period as well as legal notoce served to the original owner.


If you allow a firearm to be posessed by another, save for the *temporary loan or rental for sporting purposes* (same day, same venue loan), without direct supervision, you need to have complied with all of the laws of transfer under applicable state and federal law.

I don't see what is so hard to understand about this.
You sidestepped addressing these two situations, so I'll repeat:

-Storing firearms at your gun club- not a transfer.
-How about shipping a firearm to yourself in care of a friend in another state for sporting purposes- not a transfer.

In neither case are the firearms under your "direct supervision" (which you believe is necessary)..........do you honestly believe that you transfer possession to the owner of your gun club or to your friend in another state?:rolleyes:

You can leave firearms in a storage facility and not "transfer" them if the storage is secured in such a way as to make the firearms inaccessable to others.
Citation please.


The OP is the posessor of a pair of firearms that he posesses legally under state and federal law, it being that they were transferred to a person of age, not a felon, and not known to the transferring individual as being a prohibited person. The claim is that the father now should give the firearms back, or receive compensation.

The burden of proof on the son revolves around his ability to prove to satisfaction of the court that there is a remaining financial liability still owned by the Father, to which the Father says "what contract? Show me."

See this is where I believe you continue to ignore a couple of details.
1. Simply being stored at some ones house is not necessarily a transfer under Federal law.
2. A person storing ones own possessions, including firearms, does not transfer or pass on title or ownership to the homeowner.
3. The OP clearly considers the firearms to be the property of his son, hence his question.


Judge looks at the son and says "show us the contract". Son stares at toes and makes excuses. "Well, Dad gave it to me when I was ten" (not a Transfer under Law.... etc., etc. )


The dispute is not even in equipoise. Felon on one side, Dad on the other... Balance of Justice... swings over to the side of not meeting burden of proof... sorry kiddo. Dad wins.
Being that the father (the OP) posted that the firearms belong to his son....kinda makes this courtroom drama moot.;)
 
-Storing firearms at your gun club- not a transfer.

-How about shipping a firearm to yourself in care of a friend in another state for sporting purposes- not a transfer.




Storing firearms where others can access them is not only illegal, it's stupid. I can't comment on the actual practice of "storing arms at a gun club" in a common safe, because I have never seen it. To follow If you have seen it, it does not make it legal. In our club, we have club-owned firearms that are stored on site, in a safe (the firearms are owned by the corporation for youth education and competition), but theu are not comingled with privately owned arms. Individuals also own private safes that are stored in the facility as well, but accesss is only to the individual. "Common Access" is not anything that is addressed as a legal use in any code I have ever read. The ones who issue the youth rifles are officers of the corporation that owns them. Nobody else has the combination. I can see it now: "Oh yea, officer... we all sort of toss our guns into that one big box, and when we come to shoot we just sort of open it up, and sort out what is ours, and we don't really toutch the others..." That's not going to pass muster. If you get away with it, it's because nobody has made a case out of it. I "get" that is might be done. That does not make it legal.

Next:

Sending firearms by common carrier is legal. It is legal to send them to YOURSELF for legitimate sporting purposes. You are supposed to have the package held in the bond room of the common carrier until you PERSONALLY pick it up. You cannot send it to your friend for him to just hang onto until you show up "box opened and sitting on his gun rack".

There is NO difference between "sending a firearm to yourself care of a friend" and "illegally sending a rifle to a third party across state lines", as the chain of posession includes an illegal recipient under federal law. The federal statutes only deal with the consignment of a firearm to a common carrier, and an individual sending a firearm to HIMSELF. Not via a third party who is not a licensee.


Really... you're an FFL? Your BATFE guys must be pretty slack at the education part of their job. In my neck of the woods a guy with those answers would be in "remedial training".



Willie


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He is a felon and cannot possess firearms, meaning he cannot even hold one in his hands to admire it, no matter how briefly. Giving the firearms to his controllable mother is aiding and abetting multiple counts of delivering a firearm to a felon. You don't want to do that.

If the whining gets to "I just want to sell them for the money", send $100 and tell him "I sold them, got $50 each, here you are".

He has NO say in what happens to the firearms, none whatsoever. Give him any control over the location or disposition of them and he has constructive possession of a firearm even if he doesn't touch them.

Tough titty, said the little kitty.
 
Firearm Registration

Let me pose a question here:

Do states with Firearm Registration Laws indicate who the Legal Owner of a firearm is when that firearm is registered?

My state thankfully does not have firearm registration so we have no need for FOID or FID cards. Which is why I ask, in a state where there is a firearm registration (maybe CA or NJ), wouldn't a firearm be legally registered -therefore owned- by a particular person even if he does not currently possess it?

This is where I side on the statement that possession does NOT equal ownership. Possession may equal Transfer (temporary if thats whats legally acceptable), but until an agreement or Bill of Sale has been filled out, doesn't the owner remain the owner?

In the OP's case, the father has Possession of the firearms that has been Transferred to him, but until until it is legally released to him should still be the property of his son?

Kinda like lending your car (which is titled to you) to a family member. Even if they have possesion of the vehicle, say because the owner has had his license revoked, the vehicle is still legally yours because it says so on the vehicle title.
 
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Willie Sutton
-Storing firearms at your gun club- not a transfer.

-How about shipping a firearm to yourself in care of a friend in another state for sporting purposes- not a transfer.


Storing firearms where others can access them is not only illegal....
Again, citation from federal law please. (and we ain't talking 'bout kindergartners either)



Sending firearms by common carrier is legal. It is legal to send them to YOURSELF for legitimate sporting purposes. You are supposed to have the package held in the bond room of the common carrier until you PERSONALLY pick it up. You cannot send it to your friend for him to just hang onto until you show up "box opened and sitting on his gun rack".
Once again, you're inventing laws or regulation that are your own and not found in any Federal law nor ATF regulation.

When shipping your own firearms addressed to yourself in another state:
- No ATF regulation requires shipping via common carrier. It is perfectly legal to ship rifles and shotguns via USPS (and USPS is NOT a common carrier). Handguns are not mailable except by licensed dealers and manufacturers.
- No ATF regulation requires that the shipment be for a "sporting purpose"....only a LAWFUL purpose.
- No ATF regulation requires having the package held in a "bond room" of a common carrier (or at the local post office if you mailed it). You can clearly ship or mail directly to a friend or hunting lodge or the motel where you'll be staying.
- No ATF regulation prohibits shipping to ANY ADDRESS you choose when the package is addressed to yourself. You most certainly CAN ship it to your friends address for him to "hang onto"...but it may only be opened by you, the addressee.

So much for the idea that a transfer always occurs or that the firearm must always be under your "direct supervision".;)

Here it is straight from ATF:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#shipping-firearms-additional
Q: May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?
Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.
 
It's livelier and livelier....

Let me answer a couple of points that were brought up, just so that everyone knows all of the facts that may apply. This is a Tolstoy-length novel, so grab a pot of coffee and get ready!

Rifle #1 (an M-1 Carbine) was a gift from me to his mother while we were still married. About 8 years later, the marriage fell apart and she moved out, taking her guns with her. She, in short order, decided she wanted no part of any activity her and I formerly shared, and decided to give her rifle to our son - who was 15 at the time.

Rifle #2 (Ruger 10-22) was a gift from me to my son when he was about 10 years old. That gun stayed with me.

Eventually, when he turn 18 and moved out on his own, his guns were given to him, and he kept them at his own home. He married, had a home of his own, had a child, and for about 2 1/2 years seemed like a responsible young man. He had a good job on a survey crew for about a year and a half, and even improved his situation by taking a similar but better paying job with another company. After about 8 months of that, one day - without warning - he went all "Office Space" and decided, like the main character of the movie, that "I'm just not gonna go". "Oh, did you quit?" "No, I'm just not gonna go anymore". SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!

Within six months, his apartment complex evicted him and his wife. She and the child went to live with her mother - he rented a room in someone's basement. Not having a place to secure his guns, we put them in my safe. He also had another gun by that time that he had purchased for himself - a Mossberg 500. That was January of 2008. Not sure if this is pertinent or not, but I am the only person alive(that I know of) with the combination to this safe, as the manufacturer has long been out of business.
He then floated about, moving from place to place (some as far away as Hawaii) for about the next 8 months and when he finally ran out of places to go - I let him come to stay with me temporarily until he could get his life back on track. He would get a job, get a cheap car as soon as possible to GET to the job, and get back out on his own again as soon as he had enough cash. I figured 4 to 6 months, 8 months tops.
He then got a job, and 2 months later moved to a better paying job. All seemed well. He sold the Mossberg 500 for cash. Well after 2 weeks, the new job announced they were going out of business, so on to a 3rd job. Then another, then another. At the end of 13 months (!!!!!!), he was now on his 7th job! He at least bought a car for himself during this time, but was otherwise no closer to moving out on his own.

One day a letter arrived from the county courthouse with my name on it (it didn't specify "Jr."), so I opened it. I was amazed to find that I was supposed to report to the local Alcohol Abuse Remediation program the following week as result of court order pursuant to my recent D.U.I. conviction. WHAT!?
I got on the court's website (in Virginia you can look up case information) and sure enough - there it was, just 7 weeks prior he was arrested for DUI, and subsequently convicted a month later. The arrest occurred, coincidentally, on the second day of his CDL course! Pretty sure THAT'S not a great combination.

That's when I realized he wasn't making any forward progress, but rather going backwards. I'd given him enough time to get his life together but he was just going back to old ways or worse, so I made him move out. He found a new place to stay and returned to the house to get his stuff, but left the guns. I'm not complaining about that, mind you - as I'm not a big fan of mixing firearms and alcohol abuse. In the 2 months after leaving my residence, he was subsequently arrested again for DUI, Driving on a suspended license (3 times!!!!!!!), possession of marijuana, and the finale: one night while in a car drunk with 2 drunk girls, he kicks them out of the car in the middle of the countryside and takes their car. The police cuffed him, took him away, and charged him with car-jacking. (Felony...BIG felony!) This was November, 2009. They held him without bond and by May of 2010 he plea-bargained down to Felony Unauthorized Use of a Vehicle. All the other charges went to a Nolle Prosequi status, that is - the Prosecutor agrees not to pursue at this time, but may pursue at a later time if desired. He gets a 5 year jail sentence, with all but 6 months suspended, and license suspended until March 2013. They counted time served and he was out a week later. He went to live with his Mom in Pennsylvania and got in more trouble, another felony unauthorized use of a vehicle, well as a felony charge in Maryland. (Gosh, I'm so proud! :( )

This is a ridiculously long story and to spare you all any more details I'll truncate it: long story short - he has spent 2 years of the last 2 1/2 behind bars and since January 2008 has not laid eyes on these two rifles. I'd be surprised if even a fingerprint of his remains on them. Now that he's out of jail, all of a sudden he's pressing his mother to get me to give them to her and pressing his sister to get me to give his mother a handgun that used to belong to her, but was given to my daughter and now in my safe for storage until she can establish residency and a gun-permit for it in New York state, where she and her husband recently moved. Maybe I'm paranoid, but sumthin' don't smell right.

Anyhoo, sorry for the long-winded chronology of events. Welcome to a glimpse of my life. Sadly, this is just a sliver of it. Friends keep telling me I should write a book about it, and I them them I'd have to sell it in the Fiction section, 'cause nobody will ever believe this mess! Can you say "dis-funtional"? ;)

One point of caution: be careful when you name your son "Jr." Most of time it works out fine, but occasionally one turns out like mine. I love my son, and I hope someday he grows up. Right now, I've done all I can for him. It's on him now. As far as the "Jr." goes, I live in a state that has Instant-check, and should be able to walk out the door with a gun purchase the same day. Not anymore - it's a minimum 3 day wait now. I called the Virginia State Police Firearms Transaction Center about the delays, and their reply:
"There's someone with your name who has a felony conviction". It then goes into a hold until they can get someone to investigate it further to determine I'm not the felon. Lucky me.

Thanks for bearing with me, and for the support. You guys are great.
 
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Willie Sutton said:
Storing firearms where others can access them is not only illegal, it's stupid.
It is only stupid under some circumstances, and it is only illegal where there is a law that says it is not legal.

Your problem is that you are making blanket statements where blanket statements don't work. For example:

I am married. My wife and I are senior citizens. Her children and our grandchildren all live many thousands of miles away ... we visit them, they don't visit us. I have guns in the house. Some are not always locked up. The only law pertaining to locking up guns in my state says they must be locked up if there are children under the age of 16 in the house. My wife does not like guns but she is not a prohibited person. Therefore, there is nothing in state or Federal law requiring that my firearms, even my handguns, be kept under lock and key. The fact that my wife may also have access to any guns that are not locked up is not illegal, and does not constitute either possession or ownership of those firearms by my wife.

Willie Sutton said:
"Common Access" is not anything that is addressed as a legal use in any code I have ever read.
If it isn't against a written law, it isn't illegal. The fact you have not seen a law making "common access" legal does not make it illegal. Lawmakers in general do not write laws to tell us what we can do, they write laws to tell us what we canNOT do. If common access is not addressed, then common access is not illegal.

Willie Sutton said:
Sending firearms by common carrier is legal. It is legal to send them to YOURSELF for legitimate sporting purposes. You are supposed to have the package held in the bond room of the common carrier until you PERSONALLY pick it up. You cannot send it to your friend for him to just hang onto until you show up "box opened and sitting on his gun rack".
Again, you need to review the law. There is nothing requiring a firearm shipped to yourself to be held by the carrier (in a "bond room") until you pick it up. The BATFE FAQ specifically addresses the possibility that a firearm may be delivered when you are not present. (See post above by dogtown tom.) A friend may accept the package, but may not OPEN the package. That's the only requirement. YOU must do the shipping to yourself by yourself, and YOU must open the package. Nada mas.
 
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You are in our prayers....

fxdrider ....Thanks for bearing with me, and for the support. You guys are great.
Don't lose your faith. At some point I would hope that your son finally gets it.
Sometimes the best love and advice you can give is tough love.
 
maybe you can care for the firearms for your grandson when he is give or take your son's age(that should give you some shootin time)
 
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