Docs you ask for when selling a firearm
- Thread starter jrinne0430
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
Is that a requirement for the buyer, for the seller, or both? Does NC allow private, face-to-face sales? If so, is it a requirement for private sellers to verify that the buyer has a pistol purchase permit?tony pasley said:
Aguila Blanca
Staff
As previous answers have already demonstrated, there's no consensus on this, even among "gun people" who ostensibly recognize and honor the Second Amendment. The Second Amendment doesn't say anything about having to provide documentation to purchase a firearm. In theory, then we should all be opposed to documentation of any kind to buy or sell a firearm.
But we don't live in a theoretical world, we live in the real world, and the real world is very litigious. So people want to protect their posterior anatomy, and rightly so.
I'm unfortunate enough to live in a state that doesn't allow face-to-face sales of firearms without calling the state police and getting their blessing, so I don't have to worry about what documentation I might or might not wish to see. It's all required by law, and rather than deal with it I would just go through an FFL with a consignment sale in the unlikely event that I might sell a firearm.
But I do think about what I would do if I lived in a free state. The libertarian in me says that, given my druthers, I would buy guns through channels that [legally] don't create paper trails. I'm not a prohibited person and I am legally allowed to own firearms. Therefore [in my mind], the government has no legitimate reason for knowing if, when, or how I purchase a firearm. Therefore, in fairness, I should accord the same philosophy to someone who might want to buy a gun from me. Federal law only requires that you cannot sell to someone whom you know or have reason to believe is prohibited ... and you can't sell handguns to residents of other states. The law does NOT require that you in any way verify that the buyer is prohibited -- the law says you can't sell if you know or have reason to believe that the buyer is prohibited.
So you could use a gut instinct litmus -- if the buyer shows up wearing a nice pair of Dockers and a Ralph Lauren polo shirt, isn't all decked out in tattoos and body piercings, and speaks comprehensible English, technically you don't have to ask anything. Or you could ask if he's prohibited, and if he says "Nope" then you're good to go.
On the other hand, if the buyer has dreadlocks, wall-to-wall tattoos, 25 pounds of gold in various body piercings, and talks only in monosyllabic ghetto speak, then you might "have reason to believe" he's prohibited, and ask for some sort of documentation.
Another level of wrinkle, in my personal [theoretical] analysis is: where did I get the firearm I'm selling? I'd like to buy guns off-paper, so in fairness I should respect that other people might also want to buy off-paper. If the laws of the jurisdiction allow for that, maybe that's okay ... IF I bought the gun off-paper. But if I bought it through an FFL or any other avenue that left a paper trail leading to me, then it's only reasonable that I also want a paper trail leading away from me if/when I sell a gun that I bought on-paper. Bills of sale are not unbiased. I can make up a bill of sale in a fictitious name, and sign a fictitious signature. IMHO a bill of sale that I created proves nothing. If I want a paper trail to verify that I sold that gun, I'm better of handing it over to an FFL, who will enter it into his bound book, for consignment sale.
The Cliff's Notes version of the above, I guess, is that there's no simple answer to the question.
But we don't live in a theoretical world, we live in the real world, and the real world is very litigious. So people want to protect their posterior anatomy, and rightly so.
I'm unfortunate enough to live in a state that doesn't allow face-to-face sales of firearms without calling the state police and getting their blessing, so I don't have to worry about what documentation I might or might not wish to see. It's all required by law, and rather than deal with it I would just go through an FFL with a consignment sale in the unlikely event that I might sell a firearm.
But I do think about what I would do if I lived in a free state. The libertarian in me says that, given my druthers, I would buy guns through channels that [legally] don't create paper trails. I'm not a prohibited person and I am legally allowed to own firearms. Therefore [in my mind], the government has no legitimate reason for knowing if, when, or how I purchase a firearm. Therefore, in fairness, I should accord the same philosophy to someone who might want to buy a gun from me. Federal law only requires that you cannot sell to someone whom you know or have reason to believe is prohibited ... and you can't sell handguns to residents of other states. The law does NOT require that you in any way verify that the buyer is prohibited -- the law says you can't sell if you know or have reason to believe that the buyer is prohibited.
So you could use a gut instinct litmus -- if the buyer shows up wearing a nice pair of Dockers and a Ralph Lauren polo shirt, isn't all decked out in tattoos and body piercings, and speaks comprehensible English, technically you don't have to ask anything. Or you could ask if he's prohibited, and if he says "Nope" then you're good to go.
On the other hand, if the buyer has dreadlocks, wall-to-wall tattoos, 25 pounds of gold in various body piercings, and talks only in monosyllabic ghetto speak, then you might "have reason to believe" he's prohibited, and ask for some sort of documentation.
Another level of wrinkle, in my personal [theoretical] analysis is: where did I get the firearm I'm selling? I'd like to buy guns off-paper, so in fairness I should respect that other people might also want to buy off-paper. If the laws of the jurisdiction allow for that, maybe that's okay ... IF I bought the gun off-paper. But if I bought it through an FFL or any other avenue that left a paper trail leading to me, then it's only reasonable that I also want a paper trail leading away from me if/when I sell a gun that I bought on-paper. Bills of sale are not unbiased. I can make up a bill of sale in a fictitious name, and sign a fictitious signature. IMHO a bill of sale that I created proves nothing. If I want a paper trail to verify that I sold that gun, I'm better of handing it over to an FFL, who will enter it into his bound book, for consignment sale.
The Cliff's Notes version of the above, I guess, is that there's no simple answer to the question.
Illinois has what I consider a great document. You go to the Illinois State Police web site, type in the FOID number of the person you plan to sell the gun to. With in seconds you get "Approved" or "Denied". You print out the document, do the waiting period, sell the gun. As far as I'm concerned, it releases some (not all but some) of the liability to the seller. Granted, if the buyer has a 1000 yard stare, high on drugs, acting crazy etc. you still shouldn't sell the gun even if the ISP site approves the sale. But an approval document from the ISP makes me feel a bit better if I don't know the person.
In Illinois, you keep said document for 10 years (I think).
In Illinois, you keep said document for 10 years (I think).
buck460XVR
New member
While I would never sell a firearm knowingly to someone underage or prohibited, I don't demand to see any documents. I ask them up front if they can legally buy the gun and take their word. How does one know if their drivers license or any other ID is real, without the means to verify it? One only needs to Google "Fake IDs".
)How is it control and registration? All the seller is doing is admitting he's selling a gun to the buyer. The state doesn't even know who the seller is, just the buyer. The state doesn't know if it's a long gun or hand gun. The state doesn't know make, model or serial number. There is way way less information exchanged then what's on a Federal form 4473. You do fill out a 4473 when buying a new gun, right? If not, both you and the seller are felons. Heck, it's entirely possible the deal feel through after the Illinois form was printed and the sale never even took place. It's CYA to the seller. The seller knows the buyer is not a prohibited person. And later down the road if the gun was used in a crime, the gun gets traced back to seller, he can show proof that he no longer owns the gun. CYA!
It is a requirement that the buyer of a pistol in NC to have a pistol purchase permit. If you sell a pistol to a buyer without this, it is a misdemeanor. The seller does not need one, just to see that the buyer has one. Face to Face sales are legal, and the permit is only required for a pistol. The few rifles I've sold all I did was verify they were NC residents and hand write a bill of sale (I've found that buyers usually want one anyway).
Interestingly enough, I believe the "pistol purchase permit" law in NC to be a Jim Crow artifact. It was first enacted in 1919 and has been tweaked many times through the years. It requires local sheriffs to conduct a background check on the county resident and issue a permit before they take possession of a handgun. In 1919, I'm pretty sure it was all but designed to exclude African Americans from pistol ownership. Members of the state legislature have tried to repeal it in recent years, and they have cited references to it being a Jim Crow law.
AB I basically feel the same way you do. But as you said, the world we live in is what it is. I can do private FTF sales in NC. I do on the rare occasion that I sell a firearm. I do want that "paper trail" as you say so if something happens and the ATF knocks on my door I can indicate that I don't own said firearm anymore. I am satisfied with a bill of sale so long as I see the ID of the buyer. I understand fake IDs can be produced, but it is getting harder to do. Even if it were to occur, the ATF might look at me funny but I did my due diligence. They can throw me on a polygraph for all I care. I can't be charged with a crime for abiding by the minimum standard of the law.
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
That is correct. It's in federal law. All interstate sales of handguns must go through an FFL in the buyer's state of residence.VW3 said:
Theohazard
New member
You can’t buy or sell ANY type of firearm to a resident of another state without going through an FFL.
It sounds like you’re getting mixed up with the rules for dealers and the rules for individuals. An FFL can sell long guns to residents of other states, but not handguns or “other firearms”. But private sellers can’t sell any firearms across state lines. Federal law requires all private interstate firearm transfers to go through an FFL (the location of which depends on the type of firearm), the only exception is if the guns are transferred through a will or bequest.
This restriction on interstate private transfers has been federal law since 1968, but it’s amazing how many gun people still don’t know this. I’ve had many situations where customers in my shop told me about how they did things like gift a gun to their adult child who lives in another state without going through an FFL. The one situation that stands out the most to me was the elderly couple who came into my shop in WA with a gun that was gifted to them under the tree during Christmas at their daughter’s house in OR. The OR FFL where their daughter had bought the gun had even told them it was legal to do so. They were shocked when I told them (as tactfully as I could) that what they had done was a federal felony.
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
Theohazard is correct, all interstate transfers (except bequests) must go through an FFL somewhere. The OP's question was in regard to handguns, and for handguns the law is more restrictive: handguns must be transferred through an FFL in the buyer's state of residence. Legally, a long gun could be transferred through an FFL in the seller's state of residence and then go directly to the buyer, although that's not the way it usually plays out.
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I've bought and sold numerous dozens over the three decades of being a gun enthusiast and also living in a State that leans more toward freedom than the nonsense we see in the ugly states. I follow my state's requirement exactly and more than once I have really upset the other party when I stopped the deal because they couldn't or wouldn't prove residency. Some have gotten angry that I'd even bring it up, others (at a show) didn't want people around us to even hear and ruin potential sales!
I have a white-hot seething HATE for this "bill of sale" and the misguided pie in the sky feel good thinking behind it. If you don't have a notary to stamp and witness it, all you have done is wasted the time of two parties, given yourself a happy note that is meaningless and my absolute favorite bit:
You've just written down your name and home address and sent it off with a stranger, a little piece of paper that is a guaranteed "treasure map" of a location where more guns surely reside. Doesn't have to be him that abuses it, could be his teenage Son's tweaker friend or maybe his copy of the BOS flies out of the truck window 5 minutes after your exchange.
If you are the person who believes in the mythical BOS fairy, we live in America and I observe your right to chase fairies and comfort your sleep. But please be kind, announce your nonsense well in advance so the rest of us can avoid your irrational waste of time and your worthless BOS.
I have a white-hot seething HATE for this "bill of sale" and the misguided pie in the sky feel good thinking behind it. If you don't have a notary to stamp and witness it, all you have done is wasted the time of two parties, given yourself a happy note that is meaningless and my absolute favorite bit:
You've just written down your name and home address and sent it off with a stranger, a little piece of paper that is a guaranteed "treasure map" of a location where more guns surely reside. Doesn't have to be him that abuses it, could be his teenage Son's tweaker friend or maybe his copy of the BOS flies out of the truck window 5 minutes after your exchange.
If you are the person who believes in the mythical BOS fairy, we live in America and I observe your right to chase fairies and comfort your sleep. But please be kind, announce your nonsense well in advance so the rest of us can avoid your irrational waste of time and your worthless BOS.
craddleshooter
Moderator
i ask if they are old enough to own one and have a permit, i also ask to see the FFL papers where i will be shipping the package to.