Do you have to tell police when you are carrying?

[Powderman]

Where I live there are so many people who are licensed to carry that it is only prudent for any cop to assume that just about everybody is armed.

My point exactly. Note that I also live in Washington State.

Unless the reason the contact takes place is because you have committed some transgression, the cop doesn't need to verify whether, or not you are carrying.

See Terry v. US. Also, see RCW 9.41 about who you have to show your CPL to, on demand.

He, or she works for me and they should respect me as they would their superior.

I will treat you as my equal.

I have supervisors. No man on this earth is my superior. And yes, there is a difference.

So, I think Powderman at the very least needs to explain himself further. Maybe his explanation will clear things up, but as it is, I find his post disturbing and sad.

What's disturbing about my post? It's simple, direct, to the point:

If I am on duty, have to make contact with someone for whatever reason, and they inform me that they are carrying a gun beforehand--well, we can just have a friendly contact, I find out what I need to know, and if you're not in a hurry, I'll probably bend your ear a bit about carry guns--or any other gun you want to talk about.

If however, I see the gun BEFORE you tell me, I have NO idea if you are a threat or not. No, I'm not going to be polite. No, I'm not going to ask you quietly about a permit. No, I'm not going to kiss your you-know-what--not even a little pucker.

I will, however, introduce you to the muzzle of my duty weapon. If you're talking to my partner and I see him draw, you'll be introduced to the muzzle of a 12 gauge shotgun--if I'm near my car. You will be proned out, you will be relieved of your firearm, and you will be handcuffed--until we can sort things out.

Someone else posted this earlier--perhaps even on another board. It's not mine but I wish it were: "You want to know where Officer Friendly went? He's laying in the bottom of a ditch somewhere with his throat cut."

Want to know why I react like that?

Do a couple of searches.

Read about the Newhall Massacre, in California.

Now, do one on Deputy Kyle Dinkheller. Watch the video.

Listen to him talk to this guy. Note that all the time, he addresses this maniac as "Sir".

Can you identify where the warning flags should have been screaming? Can you see where the message should have come through?

Listen to the Deputy trying to scream into his radio because he has been "courteous" to this guy WAY TOO LONG, and the guy has achieved fire superiority.

Listen to the screams of mortal agony as the Deputy is shot down like a DOG--in the front seat of his OWN CAR.

I'm not going down like that, fella.

You want courtesy? You want polite conversation? Fine. If I contact you in an official capacity, let me know that you have a CPL and where it is.

You don't let me know, and I see your gun, I will do whatever is necessary to keep my partner and I alive.

You don't like it? Wah. Have some Pablum.

 

[Doug.38PR]

I will, however, introduce you to the muzzle of my duty weapon. If you're talking to my partner and I see him draw, you'll be introduced to the muzzle of a 12 gauge shotgun--if I'm near my car. You will be proned out, you will be relieved of your firearm, and you will be handcuffed--until we can sort things out.

Powderman,
Don't you think that's overreacting and dangerous? Just upon seeing a gun on or about the person? I don't want you or anyone else to end up like that poor deputy (I think I saw that horrible video too. If it is the one I am thinking about it was where the crazy guy curses and hollers at the deputy and pulls out an M-1 carbine?) but there is a difference between the senario you describe and what was going on in that video.
Your senario opens up with a good exhange with a man. The deputy had an insane lunatic cursing his head off dancing around taunting the deputy. You simply see a gun under a coat. The deputy saw a gun...being loaded while the nut was threatening him, taunting him and taking aim and kept screaming at him and his radio.
Personally, I think the deputy should have shot the SOB when he started threatening and purposefully distracting him and testing boundaries dancing around and CERTAINLY unloaded on him when he started loading or reaching for the gun. Yes there were too many warnings with no consequences.

I understand the need to see to your safety and keep control of the situation, but I think your pulling a gun and screaming at someone upon just noticing a gun is dangerous and panicing. You are going too far the other way. Stay cool, calm and collected.

 

[Powderman]

Don't you think that's overreacting and dangerous?

Nope. See below.

I think your pulling a gun and screaming at someone upon just noticing a gun is dangerous and panicing. You are going too far the other way.

Not at all.

Remember, action beats reaction. There are some lessons that cops have learned over the years. Unfortunately, the tuition for these lessons have been paid in the blood of other cops who were the primary instructors at the first class.

The primary lesson is to be prepared. Just because a person is nice at the beginning, doesn't mean that they won't turn into a screaming $%(#*! in a split second. See "Trooper Mark Coates". Do a search, and watch the video.

If they do decide to turn bad on ya, you are already behind the power curve. While you're deciding how to react, the firearm can already be drawn, settling on target. Not a good place to be.

Thus, if I see a firearm on a person that I have contacted, I don't give them a chance to THINK, much less REACT.

Now, all of this can be avoided. How?

Simply tell the officer beforehand that you have a CPL/CCW. It's that easy.

It seems to me that there are a LOT of people who are Internet commandos here. So tell me, (not you, Doug ), if you were contacted by an officer, and they asked you if you were carrying a firearm, what would you do?

If you were contacted by an officer who suddenly drew their gun and commanded you to the ground, what would you do?

I'll tell you what you would do....

You'd go prone and produce that CPL real damned fast, wouldn't you?

So, instead of getting on a keyboard and blowing a lot of hot air, why don't you just tell the cop who contacts you that you're carrying?

 

[invention_45]

"Failing to warn the officer and then suddenly admitting there's a weapon if he decides to search is going to look bad. What else should he be asking about? Letting him find it is going to be even worse."

Perhaps I shouldn't try to compress my thoughts so much.

The sentence "What else should he be asking about" wasn't meant to suggest that *I* think finding an unannounced gun should rightfully cause an officer to want to search further. It was meant to convey that that is probably what an average LEO would want to do (and would probably do) upon finding an unannounced firearm.

If you want to minimize further intrusion, since your gun is legal, why not let him know you have it?

 

[Doug.38PR]

Don't you think that's overreacting and dangerous?


Nope. See below.


Quote:
I think your pulling a gun and screaming at someone upon just noticing a gun is dangerous and panicing. You are going too far the other way.


Not at all.

Remember, action beats reaction. There are some lessons that cops have learned over the years. Unfortunately, the tuition for these lessons have been paid in the blood of other cops who were the primary instructors at the first class.

The primary lesson is to be prepared. Just because a person is nice at the beginning, doesn't mean that they won't turn into a screaming $%(#*! in a split second. See "Trooper Mark Coates". Do a search, and watch the video.

If they do decide to turn bad on ya, you are already behind the power curve. While you're deciding how to react, the firearm can already be drawn, settling on target. Not a good place to be.

Thus, if I see a firearm on a person that I have contacted, I don't give them a chance to THINK, much less REACT.

Now, all of this can be avoided. How?

Simply tell the officer beforehand that you have a CPL/CCW. It's that easy.

It seems to me that there are a LOT of people who are Internet commandos here. So tell me, (not you, Doug ), if you were contacted by an officer, and they asked you if you were carrying a firearm, what would you do?

If you were contacted by an officer who suddenly drew their gun and commanded you to the ground, what would you do?

I'll tell you what you would do....

You'd go prone and produce that CPL real damned fast, wouldn't you?

So, instead of getting on a keyboard and blowing a lot of hot air, why don't you just tell the cop who contacts you that you're carrying?
__________________
Be not afraid of any man, no matter what his size;

When trouble rises, call on me and I will equalize.

How about this: You spot a gun on the guys person. You put your hand on yours (or depending on the situation, even pull it and keep it at your side in your gun hand pointed down) and calmly but firmly order the guy to stop, keep his hands where you can see them and place them on the car, relieve him of the gun, search him, maybe even cuff him. Ask if he has a CHL.

My thought is that if you do it your way aiming and shouting prematurely you could end up with an unwanted bang and wind up with a good man dead, a family without a loved one and a good cop in trouble and with innocent blood on his hands.

I'm not trying to be a keyboard commando here, just using what I was taught about firearms and applying it to real life.

 

[Powderman]

Agreed, Doug, and thanks for the response.

The response generated by the officer is usually consistent with the training and experience that they receive, and or have gone through.

Specifically, with the knowledge that the average person can raise a gun and shoot in roughly .09 of one second (no, NOT a mistake), by the time you see someone's hand moving, it is too late.

Also, when you draw from a duty holster, you are taught to index your trigger finger, until the moment of firing. We specifically teach our officers to index off the ejection port--meaning that your trigger finger is literally poking into the ejection port--while the firearm is leveled.

 

[XavierBreath]

You know..........I was going to chime in and say I saw Powderman's point.

Then I read Doug's last point.

It would be a tragedy to have a negligent discharge and kill an innocent man.
It would also be a tragedy to get it wrong and die in the process because you were a nice guy.

I would still go along with Powderman on this one. If the citizen is legal, there is absolutely no reason not to inform the officer. None. The failure to inform is what places you at risk, not the officer. If I were that officer, I would do what I thought was necessary to live another five minutes. If that involved drawing my sidearm, it involves drawing the sidearm. I cannot fault an officer for that. Disarming a person without your own gun drawn is a very dangerous business.

I'll give the cop the benefit of the doubt.
Most of them are good guys.
Even if they make me go prone.
I'm not a cop, so who am I to tell them how to do their job safely?
I'm waiting to be called a cop basher again now......

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Here's an excellent LAWDOG story on what happens if you don't inform the LEO of your CCW before......

I pulled a rental car over one fine Sunday morning for making a nice little detour into the barditch.

I'm figuring that the driver either couldn't see the road due to driving directly into the sunrise, or he's sleepy. Whichever, I pull him over, wander up and have a chat with him.

Nice guy, a little snappish (which I chalk up to the morning hour), but nicely dressed in a suit and driving an Infiniti something-or-other.

It's a bright Panhandle morning, the birds are singing, my lady gave me a kiss before I headed out, so I'm getting set to write him a warning and send him on the way.

In order to write this warning, I need the rental agreement, which the gentleman has in the inside left-hand pocket of his suit coat.

This is, quite coincidentally, right next to the 1911 clone riding in the Galco/Jackass shoulder rig. Under the suit coat. The 0.45 cal M1911-type smoke wagon that the gentleman has...neglected...to mention to me.

It's amazing how much the act of reaching into a pocket situated right next to the butt of a .45 Ay See Pee looks kinda like reaching for the butt of said pistol.

Folks, don't do this.

If you do pull this stunt, consider getting a 9mm screwed into your ear whilst being snatched out through the window of your luxury sedan by the nostrils to be a learning experience in Things Not To Do Next Time.

LawDog
__________________

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=59920

 

[magooch]

To Powderman:
First let me clear something up. I didn't mean that you should treat me, or other people as superiors, but that you should give us the respect that you would your superior.

Second, I sincerely hope that I don't cross your path if you are going to go nuts just because you see a gun. My point was that around here, especially if you are in the backwoods areas, you are going to see guns on just about everyone. The cops (mostly sheriff's deputies) don't panic, or go into def- con-one just because they encounter a person with a gun. People carrying, or having guns in their possession is not considered to be an exceptional situation.

I don't announce the fact that I'm carrying to every individual that I meet and I sure as hell aint going to make a big deal of it just because I run into a cop. Now, if I am stopped by an officer with blinking lights and/or siren, that's a different situation. In this case, I can understand that the officer has a right to know what kind of scenario he is addressing. The prudent thing to do is to as calmly as possible, with both hands on the steering wheel I would explain that I have a concealed pistol permit and I am armed.

 

[625]

Second, I sincerely hope that I don't cross your path if you are going to go nuts just because you see a gun.

+1

Now, if I am stopped by an officer with blinking lights and/or siren, that's a different situation.

+1

Never did I say that someone with a permit should not disclose that they are carrying under all circumstances.
My main issue (I thought it was obvious) was that Powderman claimed to have stopped someone just walking down the street for no good reason. I guess the 4th Amendment is only important to some of us.

I see that Powderman seems to have a short temper and needlessly uses personal attacks when posting. I can only hope that your short fuse does not get someone injured or killed.

 

[Powderman]

Never did I say that someone with a permit should not disclose that they are carrying under all circumstances.
My main issue (I thought it was obvious) was that Powderman claimed to have stopped someone just walking down the street for no good reason. I guess the 4th Amendment is only important to some of us.

Dude, in one of my earlier posts, I mentioned reading Terry v. Ohio. Do a search on it, and read the case brief. That is the case law concerning an "investigative detention", also known as a Terry Stop, or a stop-and-frisk.

As far as stopping someone for no good reason, we have areas within my jurisdiction designated as SOAP (Stay Out of Areas of Prostitution) and SODA (Stay Out of areas of Drug Activity) areas. In these areas, both prostitution and drug activity is so rampant that simply being on the street in these areas has been determined to constitute reasonable suspicion (again, Terry v. Ohio) enough to initiate a contact. A good 70% of the warrant arrests I have netted has been within this area. Simply put, no straight citizen has ANY business in this area after the businesses close.

I see that Powderman seems to have a short temper and needlessly uses personal attacks when posting. I can only hope that your short fuse does not get someone injured or killed.

Again,

Finally, short tempers do not last too long behind a badge. You'll get fired really, really fast. Trust me on this one. And, if you don't, there are so many stress related illnesses related to the job that you'll get one or two in short order.

Now, if I am stopped by an officer with blinking lights and/or siren, that's a different situation. In this case, I can understand that the officer has a right to know what kind of scenario he is addressing. The prudent thing to do is to as calmly as possible, with both hands on the steering wheel I would explain that I have a concealed pistol permit and I am armed.
Yesterday 03:28 PM

Dude, that's exactly what I was saying in the first place.

As far as "personal attacks", if I gave that impression, I apologize. It was not my intention to do so.

But again, I must reiterate; and perhaps do so in simpler terms: It takes courtesy to get courtesy. If I have reason to contact someone, whether it is a Terry Stop (investigative detention) or a traffic stop (crime or infraction committed), if they will extend to me the courtesy of mentioning that they are legally armed, I will extend to them the courtesy of not staring down the barrel of a Colt 1911A1, at REALLY close range.

Sorry if you don't agree.

 

[625]

Fair enough. That's all I wanted. A simple explanation. You finally gave it. I agree with you now that I know what you are talking about. It was unclear until now.

Stay safe.

 

[invention_45]

"As far as stopping someone for no good reason, we have areas within my jurisdiction designated as SOAP (Stay Out of Areas of Prostitution) and SODA (Stay Out of areas of Drug Activity) areas. In these areas, both prostitution and drug activity is so rampant that simply being on the street in these areas has been determined to constitute reasonable suspicion (again, Terry v. Ohio) enough to initiate a contact. A good 70% of the warrant arrests I have netted has been within this area. Simply put, no straight citizen has ANY business in this area after the businesses close."


For those of you who hate those victimless crimes of prostitution and drugs, but love your guns, and have voted accordingly, the above passage clearly shows how you've shot yourselves in the foot.


But, since you have already done that, the only thing left to do is use your head when it comes to encounters with police. When the polite chitchat ends and business begins is the moment an officer asks you a question. That point has arrived for sure when he asks to see your ID.

This is the time to announce you have a CCL and are armed. Before you reach for your ID. Not during. Not after.

The cop who becomes aware of your gun's presence by seeing your hand reaching towards it has no choice but to react vigorously. There is no time to do anything else. You are already reaching, potentially for the gun. He isn't yet, so he has to make up for lost time. He has no way of knowing if you are the good guy or the bad guy.

The time to stick up for your civil rights is at the voting booth or in court. Not when you are asked for your ID by a cop.

 

[Big Calhoun]

Acutally (not the thread jack), I'd like to throw a twist into the question. In TX, a CHLer is required to advise a police officer that they are carrying. OK, simple enough.

Now, let's say I'm going to my childs school play and because firearms are verbotten, I'm not carrying. Given the fact that in doing a traffic stop the officer will find out you have a CHL, do you proactively state that you have a CHL but you're not carrying or do you wait until the officer asks about it?

Obviously, the best solution is to not get stopped, period.

 

[invention_45]

It would seem to me that you would do it at the same time and almost exacly the same way as if you ARE armed.

When you are about to reach for your ID and stuff, say something like "I hold a cc license but I'm not armed".

If you are in your car, you can just wait till you hand over the ID (since you aren't armed and no gun butt will show) and let the officer discover your CCWL all by himself. When you see that he has, state that you are not armed.

 

[Hemicuda]

before i say this, i will say that i do inform officers when i am carrying... it seems prudent...

that said, if i were carrying legally, and not required to inform the officer, and did not do so, and the officer reacted as Powderman sugguests he would... (going all JBT on me) i would quietly comply, and at the soonest possible opportunity, sue the pants off of the JBT for all kinds of infractions of my rights...

last i checked, it was legal for me to carry my gun with a ccw permit... arresting, "proning" and cuffing me for a legal and allowable act is in itself illegal...

with a very minimal effort, a decent attorney would have the JBT working for me (paying me his paycheck) in pretty short order...

my sugguestion to Powderman - if you see an undeclared handgun, draw yours to low ready, and instruct the owner to not move... then check the legality of said gun, take posession of said gun, do the prudent thing, but (at least with ME,) do not go ballistic, or i'll see ya in court... and remember, even if i lose the suit, you are gonna have lawyer expenses... and you will get to try to defend your thuggish actions in court...

no reason to go ballistic because of a legally owned and carried gun...

remember, i said I DO declare my weapon, even when not required by law...

 

[Powderman]

my sugguestion to Powderman - if you see an undeclared handgun, draw yours to low ready, and instruct the owner to not move... then check the legality of said gun, take posession of said gun, do the prudent thing, but (at least with ME,) do not go ballistic, or i'll see ya in court... and remember, even if i lose the suit, you are gonna have lawyer expenses... and you will get to try to defend your thuggish actions in court...

Ah, well. Even when you try, and try again to help some folks out, someone takes it the wrong way ENTIRELY.

And I find it very interesting that the same people who write posts like this are the very ones that wonder greatly:

1. Why usually the only friends that cops have...are OTHER cops.
2. Why we deliberately isolate ourselves.
3. Why we have a GREAT mistrust of the public in general.
4. Why we get a veritable plethora of stress induced illnesses.

Folks, I am real tired of all the threats, insinuations, hyperbole and general garbage I see posted about cops. Almost every thread that has ANYTHING to do with Law Enforcement quickly degenerates into cop bashing.

And when one of us mentions this, or complains about it, within the first posts after the complaint there is usually mention about whining.

So, you folks go right on ahead. Stew in your own poison, your mistrust and absolute hatred (in some cases). The only reason I joined this--and other bulletin boards--was to talk about shooting. That is my passion, and that's ALL i'm interested in discussing.

Thus, I will keep my comments from this point on confined to shooting, especially NRA Conventional Pistol.

If you're an LEO, PM me, and we'll talk. The rest of you cop bashers, go eat raw turnips. I'm done with you.

 

[#18indycolts]

In Indiana I DO NOT have to inform cops when I'm carrying, unless THEY ask ME. If they ask me, I tell them...If they don't ask, I don't tell.

 

[Hemicuda]

Powderman... my best friend of about 30 years is a police officer... i personally know and like almost every sherriff, city pd, and state officer in my hometown...

i have NO problems with most cops... it is YOUR attitude i have a problem with... YOU are the one acting like a JBT...

and my legal team is ready and raring to go... Mom and Sis are both attorneys, and Mom was CLEO (Prosecutor) in my home county for 17 years or so... she KNOWS how cops should and shouldn't act...

YOU are the one prepetuating the JBT image...

 

[magooch]

Powderman: Read your own post. Does that sound like someone who has the right temperament to deal with the vagaries of an independent-minded public?

We all realize that being a law officer is a challenging and daunting profession, but we also have the expectation that those who take on this job should be exceptional in their composure, patience and judgement. I think all we are asking for is a little empathy. Chill!