Do You Have To Talk To Police?

[FrankDrebin]

There is a point there, except they won't find me in violation because I don't drive and drink, don't do or carry drugs, don't have bodies in my trunk, etc....But I can see how it could give cops an excuse to pull over people that they just want to check out. So, on the other hand they could simply write down the license number of someone they catch obeying the law and mail a check to their home address. Yeah, I like that idea a lot better.

I was using "you" kind of generically. YOU may not drive with a relatively low .08, but a lot of other good drivers will. As far as sending a check to the registered owner, that's Ed McMahon's job......or whoever replaced him at Publisher's Clearinghouse.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Are you suggesting that it is OK to stop people for going slightly over the speed limit in order to "fish" for a criminal? Is that why the cops pull people over and write tickets? Fishing expeditions? That sounds unconstitutional to me.

I'm not suggesting, I'm telling you that pretextual traffic stops are perfectly constitutional. Plenty of case law on that one. There are some states that prohibit it, like Washington, I believe. And even if the stops WEREN'T pretextual, there are many, many good arrests, where violent felons are caught, that started out as nothing but traffic stops. We'd probably still be blaming the OK Federal Bldg. bombing on the Arabs if McVeigh hadn't been stopped for traffic.

 

[butch50]

As far as sending a check to the registered owner, that's Ed McMahon's job......or whoever replaced him at Publisher's Clearinghouse.

The point is that the municipality would not profit from enforcing the law. Traffic fines would not be a tax replacement. The fines would be redistributed to the public who actually do obey the traffic laws.

Nolanville was a prime example of how power can be abused for gain. Most cities do the same thing, perhaps less blatently, but still the same. If leo's really want to have a better image with the public, this is one step that would definitely take them there. "If" they really want it that is.

But I am not kidding myself or anyone else, it "is" about profiteering and quotas and "fishing" for criminals and it isn't going to change one little bit.

 

[FrankDrebin]

The point is that the municipality would not profit from enforcing the law. Traffic fines would not be a tax replacement. The fines would be redistributed to the public who actually do obey the traffic laws.

Traffic fines are used, among other things, to fund the judge's retirement system, public libraries, police training, to pay off public bonds, and also are deposited to the general fund of states and cities. Would you like to get rid of traffic fines and make up the difference with your property tax or sales tax, or maybe establish a city income tax, or would you rather have people who know the law, but choose to violate it either on purpose or through not paying attention, continue to contribute the current amount through traffic fines?

And that's not to mention the deterrance value of traffic fines. Do you honestly think that the rate of fatal car crashes wouldn't skyrocket if people could drive however they felt like driving with no fear of a traffic fine? Or do you suggest we just suspend the drivers' licenses with no fine for a traffic offense?

 

[butch50]

Would you like to get rid of traffic fines and make up the difference with your property tax or sales tax,

Absolutely YES! I would rather pay a higher tax than to have a puntive system for paying for public programs. Taxes we can vote on, taxes we can increase or decrease as we see fit as a voting block. Here in my hometown we just rolled taxes back, which meant that some programs were cut. No problem there. But paying for public programs with a punitive system causes abuses and leaves us citizens without control of how/where those fines go too. Did I mention it leads to abuses?

And that's not to mention the deterrance value of traffic fines. Do you honestly think that the rate of fatal car crashes wouldn't skyrocket if people could drive however they felt like driving with no fear of a traffic fine?

I have never been pulled over for doing something that was remotely dangerous to myself or to others. If we really wanted to stop traffic fatalities in this country we would get serious about penalizing drivers for committing serious traffic violations.

How about an automatic 1 year jail sentence for running stop signs/red lights? I would vote for that, and that would dramatically decrease the number of traffic deaths don't you think? Or how about speeding tickets that are in the thousands of dollars? That would get everyone's attention too, and make people far more aware of their speed. Of course those thousands should be re-distributed to the public .

Man, don't get me started on how we foolishly go about enforcing little BS traffic infractions at the same level that we enforce serious traffic violations like running stop signs/red lights.

 

[liliysdad]

Lets say that each rolling meter maid has to write "good" tickets that equal the "bad" tickets.

Why should society reward you for doing what you are supposed to do anyway? 90% of people drive within the speed limit, obey signals, etc without reward...they do it becasue its right, or because they've been penalized for doing something wrong in the past.

As for pretextual traffic stops, they are the way its done. Period. Case Law proving the validity of such stops is more then plentiful.

There is no such thing as a BS traffic stop IF the infraction was committed. 3mph over the limit is, guess what? OVER THE LIMIT. Period. It doesnt matter if no one is on the road, or if you werent a danger to someone else, its against the law.

Some one once told me that integrity is doing the right thing when no one is looking.....

 

[Edward429451]

Why should society reward you for doing what you are supposed to do anyway? 90% of people drive within the speed limit, obey signals, etc without reward...they do it becasue its right, or because they've been penalized for doing something wrong in the past.

I can agree with this, except that 90% of the people drive the speed limit...Seemingly (at least here in CO) 90% of the people speed and if you drive the speed limit instead of keeping pace, you actually create a road hazard and get PO'd motorists.

One reward of not speeding is lower insurance rates.

 

[USP45usp]

The thing that gets me is (and yes this has happened to me) that the LEO's will sit right down the road from me at Brings Recycling (about 1/4 of a mile from my house) and ticket people but are "too busy" to respond to actual crimes in progress (my neighbors across the street and my private property).

I have noticed that the members of the board have about the same opinions and comments in common when speaking of LEO's. Now if this board only had members from the same state, city and locality then maybe you could say that it's just the opinions/observations of a small group and they may, or may not, be correct.

Yet we are spread all over the US and the world, yet most of the expressions are the same. Meter maids, revenuers, historians, etc.. So it seems that the problem isn't confined to a small area but is widespread with the same complaints and worries.

And citing cases and Supreme Court decisions really don't help your agreements. Any law can be created and upheld in a court of law but that doesn't make it constitutional or right. To blindly just follow the orders given you isn't the same as knowing what is right and what is wrong when it concerns the rights or the dignity of people.

We are here to help and to learn from each other. To just say "I am right, everyone else is wrong so live with it" doesn't help or teach anyone. To listen to the people and to the LEO's and then have a discussion on it will help and teach.

We may not change our mind, you may not change yours, but at least it gets those that wish to, and have the intelligence to do so, thinking. Maybe our stance or opinion will change abet to have more understanding. Maybe it will drive others to become even more hard-core, but they were going in that direction anyway and would do so no matter what.

I will admit, in my 1,600+ postings and over 5000+ readings of posts on this board has helped me understand a great deal more then I would have if I had just kept to my old way of thinking and actions.

Rich has helped me on how to debate (still working on this), Mal has been one of the greatest teachers that I've had and has helped me to calm down (he was the one btw that the folks at THR gave the dirty job of banning me and he did it quite well and with respect). I have learned from each and every one of you, especially the LEO's.

Just because I don't always agree with what is said or with the opinions of all doesn't mean that I have no respect for them.

At the end of the day, the worse thing that should happen is that we shake hands and walk away agreeing that we disagree and move on. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I won't buy you a beer and chat about which is better, a .45 or a 9mm.

Wayne

 

[FrankDrebin]

I can agree with this, except that 90% of the people drive the speed limit

While 90% of the people may drive SAFELY, 90% of the people certainly don't drive the speed limit. You would be hard pressed to find a typical stretch of fairly straight roadway where even 80% of people drive the speed limit.

Absolutely YES! I would rather pay a higher tax than to have a puntive system for paying for public programs.

Not me, I'd rather the smaller percentage of scofflaws pay a higher percentage of the pricetag of public projects/debt. And the people who COMPLAIN about the traffic in their area and then violate the traffic laws should automatically pay DOUBLE the fine.

How about an automatic 1 year jail sentence for running stop signs/red lights? I would vote for that, and that would dramatically decrease the number of traffic deaths don't you think?

It sure would, but me and the majority of voters would call it unreasonable and unconstitutional (cruel and unusual).

I have never been pulled over for doing something that was remotely dangerous to myself or to others.

I notice you didn't say "I never DROVE in a way that was remotely dangerous to myself or others", you just said you'd never been pulled over for it...

Or how about speeding tickets that are in the thousands of dollars? That would get everyone's attention too, and make people far more aware of their speed. Of course those thousands should be re-distributed to the public .

Sounds good to me. But traffic fines already ARE redistributed to the public. Instead of paying $.50 per year toward my pay, you only have to pay $.40 due to the traffic fines that others pay!!

Man, don't get me started on how we foolishly go about enforcing little BS traffic infractions at the same level that we enforce serious traffic violations like running stop signs/red lights.

What kind of rampant enforcement of little bitty violations did you have in mind??

 

[Edward429451]

Well said Wayne! I'm with you on that.

What kind of rampant enforcement of little bitty violations did you have in mind??

I got some. How about pulling me over for not using my turn signal when traffic was nil (except for the cop)

Pulling me over because he couldn't see that I was wearing my seatbelt (I was) and proceeded to basically do a vehicle / light inspection bwcause he couldn't give me a seatbelt ticket.

When I asked the cop who got me for feloniously ( ) not using my turn signal against the good people of Colorado Springs how come he wasn't out catching real BG's and he said 'its not my job'...

Prolly more if I think about it.

 

[butch50]

Geez Frank! One thing at a time!

I drive between Dallas and Waco on I-35 frequently. It is a very busy interstate and I used to drive it like everyone else, at about 77mph. This causes you to have to constantly adjust your speed up and down as you come up on slightly slower cars etc.

Now I set my cruise control at exactly the speed limit and I am like a rock in a river. A thousand cars will pass me for every car that I pass that is doing under the speed limit. It's a very relaxing and efficient way to drive. Typically I drive whatever the speed limit is, unless I forget to monitor my speed and creep up or down a bit. In my neighborhood where I see tickets written all the time the speed limit is 35mph on very nice wide straight multi-lane roads. Roads that could easily handle 50mph traffic safely. Lots of good folks are out there right now getting tickets for doing 40. Lots of illegal aliens are getting tickets that they won't bother to pay too - and the cops are writing them tickets for 5mph over the speed limit (knowing they wont be paid) and utterly ignoring the fact that they are ILLEGAL ALIENS for crying out loud. Want me to have some respect?

Why should society reward you for doing what you are supposed to do anyway? 90% of people drive within the speed limit, obey signals, etc without reward...they do it becasue its right, or because they've been penalized for doing something wrong in the past.

Why not? Who said we shouldn't be rewarded? Where is it written that it is only about punishment? Every trainer of people or animals knows that you get more from rewarding than you do from punishing. You can use both, but you shouldn't try to use just punishment alone - that doesn't work well - and the system we have proves that it doesn't work well.

 

[TheeBadOne]

Seems that Butch is saying : "Ticket those red light runners, but leave us speeders alone".
Just because you like to drive fast doesn't make speeding a "trivial matter". Look up the national highway statistics (for any year, especially multiple years). You will find a listing of factors involved in motor vehicle accidents. Guess what's been the #1 factor for a long time running......?

Excessive speed, that's right, what you consider "trivial" (it tops alcohol, which rings in at #2).
As for the Police paying RO's, well, that's not their job. (funny how some folks have a problem with some things that fall under the job of the LEO, and yet propose things that are blatantly not under the job of the LEO).

 

[FrankDrebin]

I hardly think that enforcement of that type is "rampant". I wouldn't like to live in a town with cops like that.

I like the "it's not my job" line...that might be a LITTLE too sarcastic for me to get away with though....I've tried "we caught them all already", "their union called a strike so they're all at home", "I'm too scared", and "We're in contract negotiations and have agreed to let all the real bad guys do what they want until they settle our contract..." Never "It's not my job" though.....

 

[butch50]

Seems that Butch is saying : "Ticket those red light runners, but leave us speeders alone".

Nope. I was saying that if we really truly seriously wanted to get serious about saving lives we could. All we have to do is make traffic violations a very serious crime, one that has very serious consequences, and I was using an example. Another example would be that a conviction for dui would land you in jail for 10 years on the first occasion. Speeding would get you in jail for a long time too, the faster you went the more time you got.

We lose something like 500,000 people a year to traffic - That is several orders of magnitude higher than what we have lost to terrorists, but traffic deaths we accept. In a logical world we would place a lot more time, energy and money into stopping traffic deaths than we do on terrorism. My point was and is that we do not live in a logical world people. If we did the world would be unrecognizable to us.

 

[TheeBadOne]

Butch you make the very point of Traffic Laws, Safety. That's the reason they are there in the 1st place. To reduce the number of motor vehicle accidents, thereby reducing the number of people injured and killed.

 

[Nio]

I have always found it much better to have a conversation rather than a confrontation.

Nio

 

[Bravo25]

Ok. Let me back up a few steps, and appologize. I did not mean to offend anyone with my lack of respect for a lot of LEO's. The do a needful dangerous job for to little pay, and not enough recognition.

Having said that if there is one cop in this forum that believes an officers attitude does not affect his job, he is looney. As I said before if I get hit by 4 cars, and 3 are red I am going to develope a dislike for red cars. As well if any LEO thinks there are not cops out there who love to abuse thier authority, they need to become training officers, and watch the new recruits on the street, or become a supervisor, and deal with the guys who have seen, and dealt with way to much on the streets.

Now you want to complain about the attitude that most people have towards cops, or do you want to fix it. The first will only make matters worse. The second is simple enough. Get out of the car, not to write tickets, but to walk the streets. Say hello to people. Talk to them like you work for them, not against them. Wave to them. Help them out instead of looking for a reason to write a ticket, or make an arrest.

Now I realise that this is not street level stuff, but consider the new "click it, or ticket" laws. It is being marketed to me as a great concern for my safety, and I think we all know that is a load of crap. I don't drive any safer with or without my seatbelt (and I have millions of miles of experience), and neither is a seatbelt going to keep that other driver from smashing into me. I have even survived wrecks without a seatbelt that I would not otherwise be around to talk about if I had one on. If safety is the real issue here we should have sobriety check points at the driveway of every bar at 2:00 in the morning. I mean those who really care about safety would have a DD, right. Less people would die from drunk drivers.

Until we bring back a LEO society that doesn't think everyone is guilty until proven innocent the situation won't change.

 

[butch50]

Butch you make the very point of Traffic Laws, Safety. That's the reason they are there in the 1st place. To reduce the number of motor vehicle accidents, thereby reducing the number of people injured and killed.

That is obviously the point of traffic laws, to enhance safety. What isn't the point of traffic laws is taking advantage of them to write tickets for the sake of increasing revenues. If I am doing 40mph in a 35mph zone and there is no one within a mile of me and I am sober then writing me a ticket isn't really about safety, it's about profiteering.

If you have never been given a ticket for something minor and not the least life threatening then you are either a very lucky person or you have not been driving very long. Your turn is coming.

 

[USP45usp]

Why should society reward you for doing what you are supposed to do anyway?

First of all, we are only "supposed" to do something because someone got a law passed. Before the law was enacted, the "supposed" to do was "okay" to do.

Second. That is life. When you are growing up, if you did what you were supposed to do, then you were rewarded for it. As you got into your career, you are rewarded for doing what you are supposed to do in the way of pay raises and promotions.

So therefore, the reward system works a hell of alot better then the punishment system.

The "punishment system" really hasn't worked if you look at history. Unless the punishment was instant death the people that got punish just invented gadgets or ways to ensure that they didn't get caught again (or lessoned the chance).

Now I'm not going to say that I have an anwser to all the ills or problems of the world because I don't. I'm just saying that many of the things that are in place now don't work but instead of trying something new, the same things are done and produces the same results.

And stepping on the Peoples Rights is not an option.

Wayne

 

[butch50]

Come to think of it, if you are carrying concealed, legally, and are pulled over in Texas you are required to speak to the police to at least some extent. You are required to hand over your chl with your dl, and if/when you are asked the location of your gun (which you probably will be asked) then you have three choices.

1. Tell him/her where the gun is -my recommendation.
2. Say nothing without moving - that's going to be a real winner.
3. Point to the gun without speaking - which might get you shot.