well that depends on alot of things. 99.9% of the time its no you CAN NOT draw or shoot over a fist fight. There is a few situations depending on the state you are in. For example Ky. where I live, gives you the right to use deadly force if you have reasonable fear you will be raped as long as the attacker has the means and you beleive they have the intent to do so. Also you have the right to use deadly force if you are in fear of being maimed or are at risk of serious personal injury eg...... beaten into a comma, loss of limb ect. There is no mention of the attacker having to be armed in those situations. However if its a fist fight and nothing more do you want to go to bed at night knowing you almost shot some one or worse you did shoot some one over a common brawl. And if you did draw what bed would you sleep in that night yours or the county jail's? I'd say learn to fight without a gun you can allways have the gun as a LAST resort to protect your life not your pride.
Do you have to fight?
- Thread starter Bullet94
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Double Naught Spy
New member
Well gee, being punched should not be an option whether you are armed or not, LOL. About not getting a shot off, that is a mighty definitive statement. So what you are saying is that it isn't possible to be punched and then to be able to shoot a gun? Reality has this happening with considerable frequency compared to your statement that it won't happen.
This guy won a fist fight and was killed by the guy he defeated.
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...-20100930_1_fist-fight-attacker-edison-austin
Here is an example of a guy who drew his gun after being beaten by a larger opponent and ended up in jail. He would have been able to shoot despite having been hit.
http://www.defendu.com/gun_fistfight.htm
A fight that does not endanger your life or result grevious bodily harm (depending on the laws of your state, county, etc.) would Not IMHO rise to the level where drawing your weapon would be legal.
Hopefully you or someone present would call law enforcement and the situation would come to a end without an altercation. If not hopefully you have some legal and less than lethal alternative. I stongly recommend against a physical confrontation while you are armed with a firearm because there is no guarntee that you are going to keep control of your weapon nor that the level of violence by the agressor wont rise to the level where the law may permit you do defend yourself legally.
These are just my thoughts but let me highly suggest you see a attorney for a "legally sound answer".
Lastly if I felt I was at some point going to be in this situation I would stop going to whatever place this might happen as there are too many place to go to have fun and who needs trouble on this level.
Hopefully you or someone present would call law enforcement and the situation would come to a end without an altercation. If not hopefully you have some legal and less than lethal alternative. I stongly recommend against a physical confrontation while you are armed with a firearm because there is no guarntee that you are going to keep control of your weapon nor that the level of violence by the agressor wont rise to the level where the law may permit you do defend yourself legally.
These are just my thoughts but let me highly suggest you see a attorney for a "legally sound answer".
Lastly if I felt I was at some point going to be in this situation I would stop going to whatever place this might happen as there are too many place to go to have fun and who needs trouble on this level.
A common brawl requires two willing parties. I don't want to brawl. I simply want to be left alone and unharmed. I have a right NOT to be beaten by someone. If someone attempts to force a brawl they will be told no thanks. Then they will be told the consequences should they attempt to initiate unwelcome harm. Then they will either comply or face said consequences.
I simply want to prevent injury to myself. Just because the bad guy refuses to comply doesn't mean I have to accept the beating.
TeamSinglestack
New member
This.
Some states justify the threat of deadly force in situations where force would be lawful to stop a threat, and should a threat ignore the warning and continue to be a threat, deadly force would be justified. Note that "force" and "deadly force" are recognized to be two completely different things.
These laws are written this way so that citizens can lawfully defend themselves from unarmed individuals they couldn't possibly physically overcome due to individual physical limitations / handicaps.
To think you are required to be threatened with a deadly weapon, or subject yourself to a potentially lethal beating, prior to lawfully using deadly force to defend yourself is simply ridiculous.
Your jurisdiction may vary, so know your laws....
A lot of it comes down to how well you can articulate that you felt you were in serious danger. You can sometimes tell when a fight will just be a fight, but if you feel like this guy isn't looking to just beat you up and then walk away, you also have to consider that after he beats you down, he now has a gun. Who knows how he'll use that gun. In the end, it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6
If I have bad intentions for you and you allow me to get a clean punch on you I don't think you will be pulling and if you do I will be on top of you and not rocked.
You are correct however but my statement was meant in the sense that odds go way down for you with a bad guy on top of you and you are stunned. Pulling at this point could get you killed as easily as it saves you. In some case it will get you killed faster to pull.
Here in the shop I work we have tried getting our guns from waist carry while a coworker tried to take it. Most of the time the taker won. This is without the physical head trauma of a vicious punch.
I do agree with you however a fist fight dos not justify deadly force. I wouldnt pretend to expext any one to just take the beating. But I would hope we have the self controll and dicipline to handle it as a fist fight not a gun fight and in the end accept the fact you might be the one with the beating but not with out a fight. Our guns should be to protect our life we can not take the mind set of a school yard kid ...... who has the bigger stick. We have to accept some times in life we are on the loosing end of a fight and thats just life. Im not tryin to say you are acting like a child please dont misunderstand.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/06/old_bridge_man_who_was_attacke.html
CASE IN POINT.
Dude is walking around his development with his family, three punks walk up, beats the father to death while the rest of the family escapes. No motive. This happened 10 minutes from my house in a state where you are not allowed to carry a concealed weapon. Something is wrong here.
If that gentleman had a CCW and was carrying, he would be alive today and his family would have a father to come home to at night. Instead, they can visit his grave.
CASE IN POINT.
Dude is walking around his development with his family, three punks walk up, beats the father to death while the rest of the family escapes. No motive. This happened 10 minutes from my house in a state where you are not allowed to carry a concealed weapon. Something is wrong here.
If that gentleman had a CCW and was carrying, he would be alive today and his family would have a father to come home to at night. Instead, they can visit his grave.
B.N.Real had it right. Call 911 and prepare for the worst. You don't know their intentions. You don't know their capabilities. You don't know if you can take one punch, or three, or twenty before you start to black out and he takes your gun and finishes you off. There is no reset, no do over, no referee to determine that he is getting the upper hand and throws a flag to indicate now your life is in danger. You can't say I wish he would beat me more so I can shoot him and end this. You can't say if he hits me one more time I'm going to start getting serious.
This isn't best two out of three or a match of fisticuffs. This isn't a fist fight in the playground after school. You have no idea how far it can escalate and if you care about your own safety you need to defend yourself. It is crazy to tell someone to take a beating becuase its against the law to shoot someone to defend themself. Dead is dead. It doesn't matter if he gets a lucky shot with his fist, a bottle, a brick, a knife, a boot, or a club. Any of those can cause permanent damage and even death. If you guys are going to take your chances and see how much you can take, please put me in your will.
This isn't best two out of three or a match of fisticuffs. This isn't a fist fight in the playground after school. You have no idea how far it can escalate and if you care about your own safety you need to defend yourself. It is crazy to tell someone to take a beating becuase its against the law to shoot someone to defend themself. Dead is dead. It doesn't matter if he gets a lucky shot with his fist, a bottle, a brick, a knife, a boot, or a club. Any of those can cause permanent damage and even death. If you guys are going to take your chances and see how much you can take, please put me in your will.
+1 for dial 911.. When I picked up my gun, I put my ego down.
When I was taking martial arts years ago a little ole grandma hit me about 4 or 5 times and had me on the ground before I knew what the heck was going on. Now, at the time I was young and about 150 lbs and very full of my self. (I too had been in my share of altercations.) I came to a very quick conclusion as I got older / grew up. You just don't know. So don't fight unless it is the last option.
1. Carry everywhere
2. Keep the knife handy
3. Keep the cell phone handy
Plan A. - Walk, Run - Get away if at all possible. (Call police.)
Plan B. - Call the police and try to talk the idiot down.
Plan C. - Win at ALL COSTS.
I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. JMHO.
When I was taking martial arts years ago a little ole grandma hit me about 4 or 5 times and had me on the ground before I knew what the heck was going on. Now, at the time I was young and about 150 lbs and very full of my self. (I too had been in my share of altercations.) I came to a very quick conclusion as I got older / grew up. You just don't know. So don't fight unless it is the last option.
1. Carry everywhere
2. Keep the knife handy
3. Keep the cell phone handy
Plan A. - Walk, Run - Get away if at all possible. (Call police.)
Plan B. - Call the police and try to talk the idiot down.
Plan C. - Win at ALL COSTS.
I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. JMHO.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Now that would be stupid. Why would I allow you to get a clean punch on me or why would you let me get a clean punch on you?
Oh, maybe you would get in a clean punch when I attempted to call 911.
While you have the right to not be beaten or to accept a beating, it doesn't mean that you can use lethal force, especially since you have self professed punch and grapple prowess.
Of late, I have gotten a kick out of the use of that statement. We like to use it as a justification for our actions that might be legal, borderline legal or illegal as we would rather be alive and potentially jailed rather than being killed. However when situations have occurred and are discussed here, there is considerable talk about how the shooter was a moron and acted stupidly outside of the law when the shootings are questionable.
Yea, it's a little disappointing how much the law protects the bad guys and criminals to the extent of even persecuting the victims. I'm amazed sometimes at why we care so much about the life and well being of some of these low lifes. You're watching a low life drive away with your car (cause you can't shoot him) and he isn't even a car thief ... you're watching him steal your car and yet he is only an alleged car thief because he hasn't been convicted yet.
On the up side though, I think MN has some of the best gun laws in the country. Easy for a good citizen to buy whatever they want, a few extra road blocks to stop the criminals. You need a permit to purchase a handgun. Easy to get if your clean (and it's free), but it blocks quite a number of sales each year that would have gone through on the Fed check.
On the up side though, I think MN has some of the best gun laws in the country. Easy for a good citizen to buy whatever they want, a few extra road blocks to stop the criminals. You need a permit to purchase a handgun. Easy to get if your clean (and it's free), but it blocks quite a number of sales each year that would have gone through on the Fed check.
This isn't a school yard. Grown men have the power to really hurt you. Some are younger and stronger. Some better trained. Some simply more violent. I have decided that I no longer wish to fight with fists for the above mentioned reasons. I will however do everything humanly possible to avoid confrontation including retreating or apologizing (even if not wrong).
That said nobody is going to beat me up. Hopefully all the avoidance will continue to defuse the rare occasions. If they fail hopefully the sight of my firearm will end the confrontation. If all else has failed.....I will not be beaten.
I hope this clarifies.
As a side note I don't think you give the gravity of just how viciously you can be beaten in a "fist fight". I hope you never find out.
You can use lethal force to prevent death or grave bodily injury.
I can handle myself pretty well. Punching power and ground skills does not a fighter make. I have a 30 second window on the ground before I get tired (really tired like bring some O2). I've got 10-15 full power combinations before my chest goes up in flames.
I would have a better chance than most and I still feel that it is a bad idea to fist fight. It is ignorant to do so IMO.
It was a what if. You have chosen to fight expect to get hit. If I am better or get lucky you are beat. Fights occur at contact distances.....easy to get hit close up last I checked.
My point was by the time you realize you are loosing its likely to late to deploy your weapon. Now you are beaten at at mercy.
Rufus T Firefly
Moderator
Karate? Slamaty......
Martial Arts training? Ah, no..... Unless you practice constantly Martial Arts training will most likely get you hurt and hurt bad. I have seen little kids with Black Belts. It really depends on your instructor. Luckily, the instructor I had years back spent time on the Kata's and such, (very pretty, like figure skating competition) and spent an equal amount of time on just plain "Street Fight". He had been a body guard for Diana Ross... etc and knew that threats where not defended by some fancy moves. The karate moves are great since they are a trained response and help. I just can't help but tell others when someone says.... "One good ______. Fill in the blank and hes down. Sorry. You may miss, you may get a partial hit and then really **** him off. I was trained. The last altercation I had I managed to incapacitate someone but still took a hit to a tooth that had to be extraced and replaced at some cost. No one "wins" a fight. Especially with one, kick, punch, etc. Mostly BS from the people that want to sign you up.
Martial Arts training? Ah, no..... Unless you practice constantly Martial Arts training will most likely get you hurt and hurt bad. I have seen little kids with Black Belts. It really depends on your instructor. Luckily, the instructor I had years back spent time on the Kata's and such, (very pretty, like figure skating competition) and spent an equal amount of time on just plain "Street Fight". He had been a body guard for Diana Ross... etc and knew that threats where not defended by some fancy moves. The karate moves are great since they are a trained response and help. I just can't help but tell others when someone says.... "One good ______. Fill in the blank and hes down. Sorry. You may miss, you may get a partial hit and then really **** him off. I was trained. The last altercation I had I managed to incapacitate someone but still took a hit to a tooth that had to be extraced and replaced at some cost. No one "wins" a fight. Especially with one, kick, punch, etc. Mostly BS from the people that want to sign you up.
Microgunner
New member
Hey, I walk with crutches. I'm not, no way on God's green earth, going to allow anyone to get that first punch in on me prior to drawing my weapon if I can help it. I'd be on the ground and helpless. I will, and have, shout "I'm armed, stay back". If they proceed I will, and have, show my weapon. If they still proceed i will, and have, point my weapon. If they still proceed I will shoot. No ifs ands or buts. I made these decissions long ago and feel completely justified in this response.
thesheepdog
New member
You can't legally shoot the BG, since your life isn't in immediate danger. If the BG moved closer towards you with a weapon or clinched fists, then that is when you scream at the top of your lungs "STOP OR I WILL SHOOT!!!"...if the BG doesn't heed the command to stop, then you have legal rights to shoot him/her.
If it was me and the BG just trapped me into an ally and wasn't really making a move, I would either call the COPS or try to find an exit.
If I was unarmed-which I am at times-I would whip out some Krav Maga on the thug in the event I felt my life was in immediate danger.