Do you have to fight?

B

Bullet94

New member
I would like to know if - do you have to fight?
I understand that if there is a disparity of force you can use your gun to defend yourself. But what if there is no disparity of force, being that it appears to be an even match.

My example is that a BG wants to fight you but you decline and try to leave. But the BG has you trapped with no escape. The BG has no weapons except fists. Can you draw and shoot if the BG won’t move out of your way so you can leave or do you have to fight?
 
I am 5'11" and weight 125lbs. My best bet is to try to outrun him and hope a few larger people will help me out. I will do my best to fight, but I would certainly hope a few good Samaritans would help me out. I would not draw on an unarmed man unless there was a chance he was going to get my gun from me and use it on me..
 
I'm a skinny short guy too. I just avoid the fighting types. But...in the scenario we have would I pull a gun? Heck no. I'm no lawyer but I'm pretty sure I'd be in the wrong big time. I'd draw a cell phone if I thought it was that serious. If for some reason a fight is unavoidable and I'm attacked then I guess I'd fight as dirty and well as possible. But some of the others may know what to tell you as far as what you legally can and can't do. Stay away from the fighting types works for me.
 
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The BG has no weapons except fists. Can you draw and shoot if the BG won’t move out of your way so you can leave

Not without ending up in jail.
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One of the best responses in a long time, well said my good man.
 
Bullet94 said:
My example is that a BG wants to fight you but you decline and try to leave. But the BG has you trapped with no escape. The BG has no weapons except fists. Can you draw and shoot if the BG won’t move out of your way so you can leave or do you have to fight?
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As usual -- "it depends."

In this case, it depends on how the law is written in your state -- as well as on what the prosecutor thinks, and maybe what a jury would think.

I am not a lawyer and I don't make any claim to have read the self defense laws for all 57 states (that's a joke, get it?). Most of the ones I have read tie the justification for the use of lethal force on the belief of the victim (you -- the victim of an assault, not the bad guy who is the "victim" of your shooting him). The general theme (again, of those I have read) is that the use of deadly (or "lethal") force is justified if you fear that you will suffer death or serious (some call it "grievous") bodily harm.

Most (of those I have read) also include an exception for "mutual combat." Your scenario does NOT fit mutual combat. If the other guy wants to fight and you want to leave, that's not mutual combat. Mutual combat is where two guys agree to "settle this" in the alley behind the bar, and when one guy is getting his teeth knocked out he decides to change the rules and pull a gun. That won't fly, because he agreed to the fight.

In your case, the complicating factor is that you have specified that there's no disparity of force. If the assailant is a huge young body builder and you're an arthritic senior citizen (like me), it's easy to argue that you were afraid if he attacked you he'd kill or seriously injure you. If you're about the same size and age and physical condition as the assailant -- the criteria are the same, but if it gets to court it will be subject to what lawyers call the "reasonable man test." In other words: You say you feared death or serious bodily harm. Would a hypothetical "reasonable man" in the same situation fear death or serious bodily harm? That's the way the question will be presented to a jury.
 
NO!

I've been in more fights since about the 4th grade, about 2-3 a year and about the same with my younger brother. In College I realized I got lucky and never broke my nose or lost a tooth-I just knew how to duck I guess but I got quite a few blackies and fat lips.

That being said, I lost any and all interest in duking it out in college when I realized that folks stopped fighting fair. Use your fists, they use brass knuckles, a blade, guns. Having a weapon encouraged me to develop responsibility and I learned to walk away.

If someone has me in a corner without and exit, I'll take them out. I have no guarantee they aren't armed-with something. If brandishing my weapon doesn't discourage the encounter then the choice is mine.
 
I would venture a guess that you'd have to find another way out of that situation..I have martial arts training,so for me a quick snap kick to the knee would end the confrontation quickly..He's going to be in too much pain to stand,let alone fight..
Drawing your gun or knife in that situation would make your force far deadlier than his and you would be subject to criminal punishment.
 
Check you local laws first,
In florida, you have the right to use deadly force if:

" You have a well found feeling that the threat is likely to cause great bodily harm, death or disfigurment"

A case just a few months ago in Tampa, were a guy asked another guy to turndown his radio in a neighborhood. Guy jumps out of the truck and starts to beat the dude up using only his fist. Good guy gets away and starts to run away, bad guys catches up and gets him on the ground, begins to rearrange his face. Good guy, pulls out his trusty .380 and puts one in between the running lights. Bad guy is prononced dead on scene.
Case was reviewd by state attorney, good guy exnorated.

What ever you choose to do, make sure you can clearly articulate why you shot.
 
This is one of those depends on the curcumstances. If your attacker is 240 lbs of muscle, and you are 125 lbs, you MAY be justified. What it boils down to is, are you in fear of death or serious bodily injury. Also, you dont know if the attacker is a martial arts expert or not. It goes back to the main question, are you in fear of death or serious bodily injury. Also being armed with a weapon, if you are knocked down, or he gains control of the weapon during the fight, what then. If you cant talk your way out, and you are not bigger than the attacker, you may be justified. Best option is to try to avoid being cornered, but if you are cornered and you cant talk your way out of it, then you have to quickly evaluate, would a REASONABLE person be in fear of death or serious bodily injury. I usually also carry pepper spray, and would try that first. It is not a bad idea to carry something like that as an alternative to deadly force, or at least to give yourself some options. I would at least draw the gun (unless he is too close) rather than possibly spend a month in the hospital after being beaten. If I am bigger than the attacker, I may try fighting only if I had no other choice. Push the guy back and hopefully off balance, then run like crazy. Firearm should be the last option.
 
One can only use deadly force if he believes he is danger of death or great bodily harm. The scenario does not seem to suggest that.

If one stays away from places where fights occur, stays sober and minds his own business he probably will never have to fight. I never have. But if the choices were to go to prison or take a whipping I would stay out of prison.

Regards,
Jerry
 
If I'm cornered and someone is threatening to beat the tar out of me....and if I think there is a reasonable chance that I'm going to get hurt, I'm pulling my gun and am going to use it.
 
The BG has no weapons except fists. Can you draw and shoot if the BG won’t move out of your way so you can leave or do you have to fight?
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It is going to depend on both statute law and common (case) law in the jurisdiction.

In Virginia fists are not considered deadly weapons (despite them killing plenty of people).

You would have to demonstrate that they were in this case to allow the use of deadly force.
 
Boys don't grow up getting in fights the way they used to. That is, I don't think so, not where I live now. So people don't have much of an understanding about fighting. The first thing is, you will get hurt. The second thing is, getting hurt isn't the end of everything. Sometimes standing your ground is worth getting hurt. There are even times when getting killed is worth it, though maybe not to yourself. Those are the facts of life. Another thing they tell you is that bullies are cowards. That just ain't so. Bullies are as used to being pushed around as they are to pushing other people around. It comes with the territory.

But I'd run if I had half a chance, most of the time, only I can't run as well as I used to.
 
First, you really don't know what the attacker has - how do you verify that he doesn't have a gun, knife or something else?

Second, if someone has you cornered (meaning that there is no escape, except through the attacker), is fully prepared and capable of beating the tar out of you, or worse, and you are carrying a gun, what the heck are you waiting for??? You want to give the attacker the first punch?

No. I know that laws differ in various states. But, if you are legally carrying a gun and this happens, you pull your gun and fire. If you want to give some kind of warning, I suppose that's up to you and dependant on the situation.

I think we all need to know in our own minds when and when not to pull out our weapons. In my mind, this scenario has crossed that line.

For any of you folks out there that have boxed, kickboxed, or have physically fought someone "better" than you, you know that there are people who are fully capable of destroying you without the use of weapons. The one thing I learned when I used to spar was that there is ALWAYS someone out there who is capable of breaking you into pieces.......and you can't know who these people are just by looking at them. The only time I'm ever going to voluntarily fight someone is sparing in a controlled environment or in a match - not some stranger on the street for kicks and giggles if I'm armed.
 
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If I'm cornered and someone is threatening to beat the tar out of me....and if I think there is a reasonable chance that I'm going to get hurt, I'm pulling my gun and am going to use it.
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THIS.

It's all about whether YOU fear for your personal safety. There is no "cookie cutter" answer for this question, BUT.... unless you know the BG... you should assume that he could Bruce Lee your a$$.... and treat him as such a threat.
 
My example is that a BG wants to fight you but you decline and try to leave. But the BG has you trapped with no escape. The BG has no weapons except fists. Can you draw and shoot if the BG won’t move out of your way so you can leave or do you have to fight?
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The bad guy is armed, he has fists, and people have been hospitalized and beaten to death before by a man using just his fists. In most states, all that is required to justify the drawing of your weapon is the fear of bodily harm, which the BG could certainly inflict upon you. Other states may require you to be in fear for your life, and even then I would draw and fire in this situation. The fact that the BG has you cornered and you have no avenue of retreat leaves you very little room for discussion, the BG obviously feels he can overpower you and have his way with you, so use of deadly force would be justifiable IMO. But, as usual, if in doubt call your local Police Department or Prosecuting Attorney and ask.
 
Basically if he is beating you to death .... then you can shoot.

I'd say not likely unless he at least picks up a board or a bottle or something to use as a weapon, and then tries to use it, or at least tells you he intends to use it to kill you.

In my state, you gun is always your last option and even then only if your life depends on it.


edit - extra info
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In MN it can't be fear of bodily harm, it can't even be actual bodily harm, not even great bodily harm justifies shooting someone (ie they break your arm, you still can't shoot them). It has to be a real threat of substantial bodily harm or death before you can use deadly force (be it a gun or whatever).

So basically it has to be a fear of death or maiming and evidence that supports that your fear was rational (you can't just claim you feared for your life, the situation has to justify it).
 
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