Do you carry with your own reloads?

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God preserve us from this topic again.

The risk has been explained over and over. Fiddletown's threads and Spats' comment should be conclusive and handle the comments about a good shoot and show me the case.

Both of these really indicate a lack of understanding of the actual issues. But I'm not going there again - done it too, too many times.

The tiny discernible advantage of your super load is not worth the risk when you are in court, if you actually go read the discussions.
 
Aguila Blanca -- Thanks. I'm familiar with the Bias case, but for some reason, I thought you were referring to some other case.

.357SIG said:
Threads like these are funny. People think every shooting is going to be taken into a long, drawn-out trial, that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, in which every aspect of their shooting will be presented to a jury, most of whom will find you guilty because you are a gun owner.
The only shoots that I really worry about are the ones in which I may one day have to become involved. I take the time to learn about the rest so that I have a more educated idea of what obstacles I may face.

.357SIG said:
. . . . If you go to court, there is something questionable about your conduct during the incident.
  • Either that, or
  • the BG survived; or
  • the BG survived and wants $$; or
  • the BGs family is mad that you killed him; or
  • the BGs family is mad and wants $$; or
  • the police aren't convinced that things went down the way you claim; or . . .

.357SIG said:
Do you think you will be taken to court over a modification to your vehicle, should you get into a car crash? Are you looking at wreckless driving and 3rd degree homicide because you T-boned someone with your supercharged Mustang, as opposed to a factory stock version?
It's not a question of being charged or sued for using handloads. It's a question of admissibility of evidence. We're not talking about parts used in the shooting or accident. To make the situation more comparable, imagine that you were involved in that accident and that you had used your own special blend of fuel, which included some jet fuel. (I don't have a clue if the Mustang would run, but bear with me). Then you've got a situation where you would not be able to get expert testimony on how your Mustang should have preformed with your proprietary blend.

Whether you're charged with a crime or sued civilly, and whether it's a SD shooting or murder, the rules of evidence remain the same. The closest case on point is the Daniel Bias case. It says that expert testimony using handloads from the defendant's sample is inadmissible. Daniel Bias suffered through several years of court cases, on top of having his wife commit suicide. He paid tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees. It's also the only real legal guidance we have on reloads.
 
I'm not entirely convinced one way or the other on the legal risks of using handloads, so I won't comment on that.

As far as the quality of handloads vs. factory ammo, however, it depends greatly on which handloads and which factory ammo you're comparing. Every single QC issue I've ever encountered with factory ammo was with low-priced range ammo like WWB, UMC, American Eagle, or CCI Blazer. I've never once seen a suib, misfire, or other non-cosmetic defect in a round of premium self-defense ammo which leads me to believe that the ammo makers probably assemble their premium ammo with greater care than their range fodder. When you think about it, it makes perfect sense: who is going to pay $1/round or more for ammo with a poor reputation for reliability particularly when they're going to bet their life on said ammo.

When it comes to handloads, you may be able to meet or very slightly exceed the performance of premium factory ammo if you use either handpicked once-fired or virgin brass, use premium bullets, and very carefully select both your powder and primers and meticulously handle and measure them while loading. By the time you invest all the time and money required to do that, however, you really aren't saving much if any money over premium factory fodder and you're investing an awful lot of time and energy for a minimal return.

I reload my range ammo and would consider doing so for hunting ammo, but when it comes to SD ammo, I agree with Glenn that the very miniscule increase in performance that I might get isn't enough to offset the time, energy, and possible legal reprecussions involved with using handloads for SD.

About the only way that I would rely on handloads for self-defense would be if the only firearm I had was chambered for a cartridge in which premium SD ammo, or ammo period, was not available. I choose, however, to stick with well established cartridges like .38 Special, 9x19 Luger, .357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, .44 Magnum, and .45 ACP for my SD guns so the above-said isn't an issue.
 
My opinion is that Bias killed his wife based the evidence I've seen so the case stands for nothing other than a killer was rightly convicted of killing his wife allegedly. That a judge refused to allow evidence is nothing new. The exclusion of evidence in Bias was case spoecific. A judge could make the same ruling regarding expert testimony and factory ammunition if there was an inadequate foundation. If you keep records, as most of us do, date of reload, amount and type of powder, etc there is no reason expert testimony would be excluded as you can demonstrate exactly what your reload consisted of. Factories make mistakes as do reloaders. Keep good records and the issue is moot not withstanding the fact that no one, ever in the history of the United States has been convicted of a crime based on using reloads.
 
Using reloads for SD is not a crime in any one of the 50 states as far as I know. Accordingly, it's no wonder that nobody has been convicted for it. The huge difference between handloads and factory loads is that the defendant himself created the handloads. Accordingly, there's no trustworthy exemplar that can ever be used in his defense. If anyone has caselaw that says "defendant-created evidence is as reliable as that made by a third party with no dog in the fight," I'd love to see it.
 
"...there's no trustworthy exemplar that can ever be used in his defense." If you keep good records the evidence would for sure be admissible as a "business record" and an expert would have all the information necessary to testify regarding the ballistics even though such a scenario has never occured in a self-defense shooting and probably never will occur. You might as well prepare for an alien space invasion as that has occured just as often.
 
Wrong. The records would be admissible, not necessarily an exemplar. The defendant will still bear the burden of showing that the expended rounds conformed to the loads asserted in the records.

Edited to add: And I'd have to look at the business records exception before I were convinced that they'd even come in under that.
 
Do you think you will be taken to court over a modification to your vehicle, should you get into a car crash? Are you looking at wreckless driving and 3rd degree homicide because you T-boned someone with your supercharged Mustang, as opposed to a factory stock version?
Nope, but people will make assumptions about your driving habits based on what you drive. A supercharged Mustang will give one impression to a jury while a Taurus will give another. Also, if you have modified that Mustangs brakes, do you not think that will be discussed in court?

Having sat on a jury, my faith in people to make reasonable and unbiased decisions concerning a person's fate was not strengthened one bit. To say the least, I was very dissapointed in my fellow jurors. The prosecution's case relied solely on the testimony of the officers involved and a video. The video completely contradicted the testimony of the officers involved. This case was an absolute no brainer yet all but myself and one other juror was ready to convict the defendant.
 
I have read numerous threads on this subject...and I mean numerous.

I am a handloader, I and live in the great state of Texas, where a "good shoot" will not be prosecuted.

That said, I do not carry my handloads...mostly because I do not believe my loading abilities exceed those of the factories.

When the next "ammo/component plague" occurs (and it will) I believe I will be equipped to see my way through it (as I was in the last one) but if I am wrong (e.g., it goes on forever), I would carry my own ammo before I walked around unarmed...

I have sat upon several juries, and I am here to tell you. Do not overestimate the intelligence of your fellow jurors. As a potential defendant, read that as "Do not overestimate the intelligence of your "peers". The defense attorney will do his best to remove anyone with an IQ over room temperature.
 
As I said above, I am an attorney with years of experience both as a prosecutor and defense counsel. I stopped counting felony trials after 100 and have tried a murder case, manslaughter, many armed robberies, home invasions, etc. I am also a NRA Training Counselor (I train NRA Instructors).

I have walked into court with "sure thing" cases and lost them.

I have walked into court with "10lb bag of manure" cases and won them.

The reason is very simple, you never know what a jury will do. Never.

I have spent a lot of time talking to jurors after trials and it is very humbling. The reason I say that is because jurors will pick up on things that neither the prosecutor or defense counsel thought important. I have had jurors convict because they focused on something I didn't think was that critical to the case. Like I said, you never know what a jury will do or why until the case is over. Any attorney who will give you odds or tells you "it can never happen" hasn't tried enough criminal cases. Anybody who isn't a trial attorney who tells you something "can never happen" in court simply doesn't know what he is talking about.

The above being said, I will repeat - I reload for the range.

My carry ammo is factory.

In my opinion, anything you can do to stay in the "mainstream" (cop gun, cop ammo, etc). is a good idea.

Those who believe it doesn't make any difference will not be swayed by this. Fine by me. Do what best suits you.
 
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jmortimer said:
"...there's no trustworthy exemplar that can ever be used in his defense." If you keep good records the evidence would for sure be admissible as a "business record" and an expert would have all the information necessary to testify regarding the ballistics...
Probably not. Daniel Bias kept good records, and they didn't help him.

GSR Test Results Won't Be Admissible Into Evidence If You Use Handloads

Let's look at Bias, because that case well illustrates how, if you used handloads, the rules of evidence would keep a defendant, that's you claiming self defense, from putting in front of the jury useful expert opinion based on gun shot residue test results.

One of the primary reasons Daniel Bias was convicted was that expert opinion he offered corroborating his exculpatory story wasn't accepted into evidence because the gun in question was loaded with his handloaded ammunition.

[1] The case of Daniel Bias deals with the admissibility of GSR test results. It was not a self defense case. But that doesn't matter for our purposes. What is significant to us in Bias is a matter of the rules of evidence, and those rules and their application are the same in all types of cases.

Daniel Bias was charged with, and ultimately convicted of, killing his wife. He claimed she committed suicide. Part of the prosecution's case was that test firings of commercial ammunition bearing the same headstamp as the round fired showed GSR deposits on the target at the distance from which Bias claimed his wife shot herself. There was, however, no GSR "tattooing" on Bias' wife's body, and the prosecution argued that showed that Bias' wife was shot at a greater distance than (1) Bias claimed; and (2) was compatible with suicide.

Bias claimed that the gun his wife used to shoot herself with was loaded with very light handloads he prepared for her self defense use. They were very light because Bias' wife was sensitive to recoil.

Test firings by an expert engaged by Bias of ammunition that Bias claimed matched the loading of the round that killed his wife showed no GSR deposits on the target at the critical distance. However, the judge would not allow those test results to be entered into evidence on the grounds that there was insufficient foundation to establish that the ammunition tested did indeed match the death round.

[2] The lesson for us from Bias is that if we fire a gun in self defense and it becomes necessary or desirable to our legal defense to look to GSR test evidence to help corroborate our story, e. g., our distance from the alleged assailant when we fired, we might be out of luck if we used handloaded ammunition.

That might not come up in every self defense case, but we have no way of knowing in advance if it might come up in ours, if we're ever unlucky enough to be in that position. But it does come up as shown in this post on another board by Marty Hayes (who's a member here as well).

[3] The result in Bias is actually consistent with basic evidentiary principles.

Say you may want to introduce GSR evidence to corroborate your story about how the event took place.

You therefore engage an expert to conduct tests reproducing the circumstances of the event. You want the test results to validate your story of how things took place. If you're claiming self defense, you're hoping that your expert witness can take ammunition which can be established to be substantially identical to the ammunition you shot the alleged attacker with under conditions replicating the shooting as you have contended it took place and produce GSR similar to the GSR produced at the scene. And that will, you hope, allow your expert to testify that in his opinion the shooting took place as you had described it.

That can only work, and you can get the sort of expert testimony you need in your defense, if the judge can be satisfied that the ammunition tested by your expert was substantially identical to the ammunition with which you shot the guy you claim attacked you.

If you used handloads, the only evidence you can offer to support the claim that the ammunition tested was substantially identical to the ammunition used in the claimed self defense event will be your testimony to that effect. Your testimony on that point would be suspect because you are vitally interested in the outcome and there can be no independent corroboration of your claim as to what was in the ammunition you used to defend yourself with.

On the other hand, if you had loaded your gun with Federal HST, 230 grain, .45 Auto, identifiable from the fired cases, the rounds remaining in the gun, recovered bullets and the partially used supply at the defendant's residence, the you could show that Federal Cartridge Company manufactures large quantities subject to certain quality controls to a certain degree of uniformity. In addition, Federal Cartridge Company is a non-involved third party making ammunition for sale to the general public. That would most likely establish an adequate foundation to secure admission into evidence of GSR test results of exemplar Federal HST, 230 grain, .45 Auto ammunition in support of your expert's opinion.

It's all about being able to perform a test under conditions that a judge can be convinced mirror the event sufficiently to permit an expert to draw valid conclusions about the event from the test results.

We Have to Get Over This "Good Shoot" Business

Sure if everyone agrees that it was a "good shoot" the gun, the ammunition, etc., are all irrelevant. But you aren't the one who will be deciding if it was a "good shoot." If you're on trail, someone who matters didn't think it was a "good shoot", and now it's not a "good shoot" unless your trial jury says so.

So things like the ammunition you used can become an issue when in the aftermath there's a dispute about whether the shooting was justified. The thing is that you can't know in advance whether, if you need to resort to your gun in self defense, your use of force will later be found to clearly have been justified. You will have to make your decision in an instant. The authorities will be able to take their sweet time investigating, analyzing and second guessing your decision.

Consider --

Larry Hickey, in gun friendly Arizona thought he was justified. He was arrested, spent 71 days in jail, went through two different trials ending in hung juries, was forced to move from his house, etc., before the DA decided it was a good shoot and dismissed the charges.

Mark Abshire in Oaklahoma thought he was justified. Nonetheless, despite this happening on his own lawn in a fairly gun-friendly state with a "Stand Your Ground" law, he was arrested, went to jail, charged, lost his job and his house, and spent two and a half years in the legal grinder before finally being acquitted.

Harold Fish, also in gun friendly Arizona, thought he was justified. But he was still convicted and sent to prison. He won his appeal, his conviction was overturned, and a new trial was ordered. The DA chose to dismiss the charges rather than retry Mr. Fish.

You don't have the final say. The reality is that sometimes there will be a disagreement about the question of your justification. Now it won't be a "good shoot" unless and until the trial jury says it is.
 
"And I'd have to look at the business records exception before I were convinced that they'd even come in under that."
That or a contemporaneous recording or a "custom and habit" or all three.
 
I remember Ayoob profiling a case where a man's wife supposedly committed suicide with her husbands revolver loaded with his (as I recall) SWC light target loads--handloads.

All the ammo remaining in the gun became evidence and couldn't be used for testing. The batch of handloads the ammo came couldn't be used, since there was no way to verify it was the same as the "evidence" ammo in the gun.

The prosecution used full power ammo to do it's testing and concluded from the stipling marks, that the gun was held too far away for her to have shot herself. His target ammo, that had been seized as evidence, likely would have produced much different results regarding distance and the stipling it produced and may have cleared him.
 
jmortimer said:
"And I'd have to look at the business records exception before I were convinced that they'd even come in under that."
That or a contemporaneous recording or a "custom and habit" or all three.
As Spats McGee pointed out in post 67, that doesn't get test results based on your exemplar into evidence. You still can't establish that the round(s) fired in the incident were identical to the rounds tested, even if the rounds tested match the specification set out in your records.

Nnobby45 said:
I remember Ayoob profiling a case where a man's wife supposedly committed suicide with her husbands revolver loaded with his (as I recall) SWC light target loads--handloads....
That was Bias -- discussed by me in post 71.

Aguila Blanca posted in post 51 links to some articles on Bias, as did Spats in post 24.
 
It would appear, from the excerpted text, that some of Bias' reloads were tested and that some testimony was in fact given on the results.

Sgt. 1st Class Carl Leisinger III, of the New Jersey State Police Firearms I.D. Bureau, testified on his examination of Bias' hand-loaded ammunition and tests conducted for gunpowder residue.

Leisinger said the 110.2-grain hand-cast lead semi-wad-cutter bullet that killed Lise Bias was fired from Bias' revolver. He said the Remington-Peters shell casing and primer had distinctive marks showing it was fired from the gun.

Leisinger said the other three cartridges found in Bias' revolver were 133.7-grain cast lead semi-wad-cutter bullets with three grains of small-disc powder and loaded in federal casings. A fourth federal cartridge was found on the dresser in the bedroom. Other 110.2 semi-wad-cutter bullets loaded in Remington-Peters casings were found in Bias' attic. Tests showed that these bullets were loaded with 3.1 grains of powder.

Leisinger conducted gunpowder residue tests on both types of hand-loaded bullets at distances of 20 inches, 30 inches, 45 inches and 50 inches. Both types of bullets left heavy residue at 20 inches and medium residue at 30 inches. Leisinger noted that traces of residue were found at 45 inches and none was found at 50 inches.
http://articles.mcall.com/1990-10-30/news/2773663_1_mrs-bias-residue-bullets

So was this stricken, or what? Fiddletown, Spats, anybody?
 
This is a very interesting topic, and not wishing to sidetrack it. I'm wondering if anyone would care to comment on my situation. I had been carrying a 9mm but sold it for financial reasons. The only handgun I still own is a Freedom Arms 454 ( single action ) which I typically have in my vehicle while driving, and occasionally carry.

My question is if I had to truly defend my life, would I be stacking the deck against me for using a gun which is typically used for hunting ? I consider the use of any gun as lethal force. It's a tool to be used for last resort. A tool to stop a threat which entails motive, opportunity, and jeopardy. Would it legally matter if I were to use a low power round vs a high power round ? I wasn't aware there are legalities concerning what types of guns are appropriate to protect one's life. btw, I'm a very seasoned handloader and shooter, but primarily use factory ammunition for SD. Thank you.
 
the reason it's not the best idea to carry your own reloads is they won't have the same consistency, or reliability as quality factory loads.
 
Fourdogs, in MO and lots of other states there are still beaucoup hunting rifles riding around in pickups, SUVs etc. There is no provision of MO's law that limits the type of justifiable deadly force used, whether it's a 30-30 or a shovel. There are provisions of castle doctrine laws in many states which, in certain cases, are an absolute defense to criminal and civil prosecution. It's up to you to thoroughly understand the prevailing laws of your state.
 
Here's what Massad Ayoob writes in this article (pp 1-3, emphasis added):
"...Handload Confusion

The revolver was found with two of its six chambers empty, one containing the spent casing from the fatal shot, and three more containing Danny's live handloads. He explained to authorities he customarily loaded the gun with only four cartridges. An empty chamber was kept under the hammer, and the cylinder was set so that the first pull of the trigger would cause the hammer to fall harmlessly on the next empty chamber. He was afraid that Lise might get panicky, and wanted the gun set so it would take two deliberate pulls of the trigger to fire it in self-defense. This would turn out to become a significant issue in the case, but not until much later.

The gun had been loaded with its four rounds at random from the box that contained 2.3 grain, 2.6 grain, and 2.9 grain Bullseye reloads. There was no way to determine which of the three powder charges was behind the bullet that entered Lise Bias' head.

Other ammunition was confiscated from the Bias home as evidence after Lise's death. The warrant search reported turning up eight semi-wad-cutter .38 Special cartridges from a desk in the attic; another from elsewhere; "two jacketed .38 cal"; and "one spent casing (headstamped) W Super W 38 SPL P."

Danny was careful to tell the investigators the revolver had been charged with handloads. During the grand jury inquest, the following exchange came with a senior investigator on the stand:

Prosecutor: "In fact, the uh, the rounds that were uh, taken that night and the rounds that were tested were rounds that Mr. Bias himself had reloaded, is that correct?"

Sergeant: "Yes, that's correct."

However, the test ammunition taken from the Bias home and submitted to the crime lab for examination included cartridges with R-P, Remington-Peters, headstamps. The loads in the gun, and in the box it was loaded from, were all in Federal P cases.

Apparently, the handloads taken for testing were full power loads. They deposited visible gunshot residue until a distance of 50" was reached. Factory Federal 158-grain lead semi-wadcutter P would leave visible GSR at that distance or greater.

No particulate matter, sooting, tattooing, or other evidence of GSR of any kind had been found on Lise Bias' hair, head or clothing. The medical examiner took pains to measure the dead woman's arm's reach, and determined approximately 30" for that measurement. The investigators and experts were unanimous at the trial: she could not have shot herself without leaving gunshot residue....

...

The Trials

I obtained the necessary mould, and working with gunsmith and expert witness Nolan Santy, put together exemplars of all three of Danny's handloads that were in the mixed box. The three remaining cartridges from the death weapon could not be disassembled or test-fired. They were the property of the court, evidence in what was developing as a murder case, and the necessary tests would literally "destroy the evidence." It was not permitted.

Exemplar evidence is evidence that is not the actual thing at the crime scene, but is identical to it. With the duplicate loads in an exemplar six-inch Smith, Santy and I determined the 2.3 grain Bullseye load with the little 115-grain bullet would deposit GSR to perhaps three feet. At that distance, it left only about a dozen loose particles. At 24" there was still only loose particles, and even at 20" the powder would still be in very loose particles, with virtually nothing embedded. The 2.6-grain and 2.9-grain loads deposited slightly more GSR particles, but still very loose with virtually nothing embedding. Particulate matter from these light loads was so sparse and had hit the white cotton cloth (the same background that had been used by the crack NJSP crime lab in Trenton for the prosecution's testing) so feebly it fell away from the cloth from the force of gravity.

Thus, the indications were that with the loads we believed to have been actually in the gun, the GSR would be so sparse and lightly deposited it was entirely possible none remained by the time the body was forensically examined the day after the shooting. There was considerable bleeding from the entry wound. Blood is liquid, and liquid washes things away. Blood is viscous, and sticky substances can obscure tiny particles. Given the light loads in the gun, in short, it was entirely possible Danny Bias was telling the truth and the gun had been in Lise's hand when it discharged, and there were well-established reasons why no GSR might have been found on the body when the totality of the circumstances were considered....

...Danny's first trial ended with a hung jury...

Seeing the devastating effects of the GSR evidence against Bias the first time around, Smith [Bias' lawyer] attacked the evidence gathering. She explained to me much later, "I think in the second trial, I was able to effectively cross examine Dr. Mihalakis (the ME who did the autopsy) about how the evidence was collected (and) was able to really raise doubts about the GSR issue. I don't think the second jury was convinced one way or the other about the GSR evidence." Thus, while the state was unable to show that the GSR should convict Danny, the defense was likewise unable to show GSR evidence that would have exonerated him. The second trial also ended with a hung jury.....

So it appears that whatever ammunition the State tested, and was able to get into evidence, did not match the ammunition that Bias claimed was in the gun with which his wife was shot. And testing of ammunition which Bias claimed was in the gun that killed his wife, and which tests supported his claim, was not admitted into evidence.

And here's what Massad Ayoob wrote on this board (emphasis added):
One thing about the “handloads for self-defense” issue that many overlook is the importance of being able to use gunshot residue (GSR) testing to confirm your account of the incident. The gunpowder patterns on the opponent’s body at close range will be replicable to determine distance, if for instance you fired as the attacker was closing with you but the crippled attacker (or the dead attacker’s lying accomplice) now states that he was across the room and harmlessly retreating when you shot him.
With factory ammunition, this is routinely done by testing “exemplar” ammunition, i.e., identical ammunition from the same lot to determine GSR pattern spread at given distances.
In several years of participating in Internet debates on this topic, NO ONE HAS BEEN ABLE TO CITE A CASE WHERE ANY COURT ACCEPTED THE DEFENDANT’S WORD OR LOADING RECORDS AS TO WHAT AMMUNITION WAS IN THE CHAMBER AT THE TIME THE SHOT IN QUESTION WAS FIRED.
We also have a classic test case, State of NJ v. Daniel Bias. Bias stated that was attempting to disarm his suicidal wife when the gun in her hand discharged, killing her. He had no history of violence nor reason to harm her; she, on the other hand, had a history of attempted suicide by firearm. However, the gun was loaded with very mild handloads in +P .38 Special casings. The crime lab tested factory +P ammunition and determined that GSR should have been deposited on the body at arm’s length, but had not been. Defense testing showed the light load would not deposit GSR at that distance. However, the court would not take Bias’ word, or accept his detailed handloading records, as to the load that was in the gun. After a chain of trials, Bias was finally found guilty of manslaughter and incarcerated for a number of years.
It should be noted that THIS IS AN EVIDENTIARY ISSUE, not a self-defense issue, and we can expect to see the same principles applied in a self-defense shooting. Again, note that no one has been able to cite a case where a court DID accept the handloader’s word or records as to what was in the gun. (If anyone has such a case, they are free to cite it here.)
The records and transcripts in Bias are archived at:
The Superior Court of New Jersey
Waren County
313 Second Street
PO Box 900
Belvedere, NJ 07823
Those who wish to follow the appellate track of this case will find it in the Atlantic Reporter:
Supreme court of New Jersey
State
v.
Daniel N. Bias
NOS. C-188 SEPT. TERM 1995, 40,813
Oct 03, 1995
Disposition: Cross-pet. Denied.
N.J. 1995
State v. Bias
142N.J. 572, 667 A.2d 190 (table)
There are other aspects to the complicated issue of whether handloads for defense are a wise idea. However, this should answer those who have never heard of a case where handloads got someone convicted. There was NO other credible evidence of malice or criminal intent on Bias’ part save the gunshot residue testing in which hot +P was substituted for the mild loads in +P casings that the court would not allow to be substantiated. Bias’ defense attorneys, John Lanza and Elisabeth Smith, both have stated that had his gun been loaded with factory ammunition, he probably wouldn’t even have gone to trial.
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Don Glock said:
...stop listening to ayoob. he's a gun rag writer that's been discredited by every actual expert imaginable...
Really? Then how do you explain the fact that he is a a former Vice Chairman of the Forensic Evidence Committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (NACDL), the only non-attorney ever to hold that position.
 
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