Do you carry with your own reloads?

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Some guns, yes. If the gun is typically stored with reloads (any of my .45 Colts) I don't buy speshul ammo for them.

There are some others I typically use with factory loads, but if Ive taken 'em out to shoot with reloads, they may stay loaded with them until it's convenient to swap the ammo out.
 
I haven't bought factory ammo for my handguns in years. If and when I ever need to shoot someone in SD and it's a legitimate shoot, ammo will have no bearing. If it's not a clean shoot, shame on me...... regardless of Ammo.
 
No. Not worth the legal risk.

As others have pointed out. Massad Ayoob has been an expert witness, so I'd take his word. Not to mention the attorney who posted in this thread.

Just from the standpoint of intent, it shows intent to some extent that I bought ammo that was marketed for defense.

Lastly, no reloader likes to admit this, but I can probably not produce such consistently good ammo as a well-equipped ammo factory. I can make hundreds or even thousands of rounds without any problems. But an ammo factory can make millions between duds. Mine are more accurate, because they're custom-made for my guns. Bet more reliable? Probably not. :o
 
This is an issue that crops up regularly around here. If you dig around in Law and Civil Rights, you can find it discussed in some detail.

I'm an attorney (former criminal defense attorney, currently city attorney and (traffic court) prosecutor). Would I carry handloads for SD? Not just no, but hell no.

It's a simple matter of risk assessment. In order for handloads to be an issue: (1) you have to have handloads in your gun; (2) you have to shoot someone; (3) you have to be charged with an offense; (4) you have to raise self-defense in your own defense. The odds of all of those happening are somewhat slim. The stakes, on the other hand, could potentially include hundreds of thousands of dollars and decades in prison. I'll spend a few extra bucks on my carry ammo, thank you.

There's no law (to my knowledge) against using handloads/reloads for SD. So no, AFAIK, no one's ever been convicted for using handloads. That's a red herring. Don't follow it.

There's also no caselaw that I've ever been able to locate on the issue. However, you've got to keep in mind that for me to find the caselaw: (1) the handloads have to have been an issue; (2) the defendant has to have lost (b/c the state rarely gets to appeal); and (3) it has to be a reported decision (not all decisions are reported). So the absence of caselaw doesn't necessarily tell us that it's never come up. It just tells is that it hasn't come up in such a way that it became an appellate decision of precedential value.

Now, with all of that said, here's an article by Massad Ayoob regarding the the case of Daniel Bias: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_181_30/ai_n26806104/

Edited to add: In the thread, "Court Case Evidence, found here: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=448754, I found where fiddletown (another lawyer on TFL) had posted a bunch of links to other threads where this issue was discussed.
fiddletown said:
[1] The legal issues regarding the use of handloads for self defense have been discussed here. See:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=423771

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=391656

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=394682

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=397127

[2] If you're going to need to tell your story to a jury, in my view, certain types of modification, basically things like disabling a safety device, could make things tougher for you. These issues have been discussed at great length on this board. See the following threads:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=372759

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=366434

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=388901

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/....php?p=3586536
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The main reason I am not at present has nothing to do with Ayoob type teachings, but I think that the premium factory loads are better than I can load so I carry the LE Winchester and Federal.
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I have several boxes of factory loaded Federal 155 gr HST for my .40 S&W. I also have a few hundred rounds of handloaded ammo that utilized Speer's excellent 165 gr Gold Dot bullets. Both feed flawlessly through my G23, and any slight difference in accuracy goes to the handloaded Gold Dots.

Lastly, no reloader likes to admit this, but I can probably not produce such consistently good ammo as a well-equipped ammo factory. I can make hundreds or even thousands of rounds without any problems. But an ammo factory can make millions between duds. Mine are more accurate, because they're custom-made for my guns. Bet more reliable? Probably not.
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I'm curious about your statement. Mine are consistently accurate, and consistently reliable. If anything, I put more attention into my relatively few rounds that I load than the big manufacturers possibly could. I've had occasional duds with factory ammo, and none with my handloads.

And that's something, considering the number of handloads I shoot in comparison to factory stuff. I load for every centerfire cartridge I shoot, and I have guns that have never had a factory round through them.

In my mind, there are reasons for using factory ammo for self-defense. All of them have to do with the CYA line of thought in a folow-up investigation and resulting court battle.

Never in my life have I doubted the capabilities, accuracy, or reliability of my handloads. If loaded correctly, there's absolutely no reason why handloaded ammo isn't just as good as factory, and is oft-times better.

Daryl
 
Lastly, no reloader likes to admit this, but I can probably not produce such consistently good ammo as a well-equipped ammo factory.
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I completely disagree. My handloads consistently perform better than factory ammo. I carefully weigh each and every charge and it shows on the targets. My guns shoot pretty good with factory ammo but they shoot great with my handloads. There is a reason benchrest shooters handload.
 
Ever seen a box of "factory" ammo with a round that has the primer installed backwards? Ever seen a "factory" round where they forgot to punch a flash hole in the case? I have seen both. I couldn't care less what the prosecuting attorney believes - I really need the ammo to function and the only way to make sure is to know what's inside that ammo. The idea that you can't load ammo as good or better than a factory is completely ridiculous. At the very LEAST you can buy factory loads, pull them apart and inspect them and reassemble. Would those be technically "reloads"? If I buy CCI Gold Dot cartridges and pull the bullets and load them into Federal brass with Federal primers using the powder from the CCI loads are they "reloads"? Would anyone bother to check? Would they even know the difference? I don't care. I want to KNOW that they're going to fire when I have to pull a trigger.
 
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This issue has been beaten to death. There is no case, never ever, where someone has been convicted of a crime because they used reloaded ammunition in self-defense. So since that is a fact beyond dispute the only remaining argument has always been the "It costs so much to hire experts." That is why you have insurance otherwise few of us could afford experts regardless of what ammunition is used. I have been an attorney over 20 years and have represented defendants and plaintiffs in firearms cases both civil and criminal. I think a jury would be impressed, the bad impressed, by the advertisements and claims by the ammunition manufacturers as to how destructive their ammuniton is to a human "victim." Here is an example of something we know for sure, a man using a 10mm handgun was whacked, in part, by a judge, prosecutor, and jury for using a gun more powerful than the guns used by the police. It would make far more common sense to avoid using a 10mm or other powerful gun than to avoid using reloaded ammunition. Don't understand why people get the vapors over this simple issue.
 
There was a lengthy discussion of this recently on the forum at www.M1911.org. In that discussion, a retired attorney who is an NRA-certified instructor and who on occasion teaches with Massad Ayoob took the same approach as Spats McGee. He stated emphatically that he would not carry handloads, and he also used "risk assessment" as the reason. The discussion of why using handloads can get your defense expert tossed out of the court before he even makes it to the witness box is most enlightening.

Link: http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=92508&highlight=defense
 
Everything about the shoot is going to be picked apart by the prosecutor, no matter what. What ammo did you use? What gun? Laser sights? Night sights? Where do you keep your gun? Etc.

You're going to have to defend all of those points. Even if you use the "right" ammo, you're still going to have to defend your choice in court if there is a shooting.

I've gone back and forth on this in my own mind over recent months since I started to EDC. Ayoob advises that you use the same ammo the FBI or your local police department uses. It does seem to afford you one less defensive posture your attorney may have to take but I have little doubt that a prosecutor will even turn THAT against you in court.

It may afford you a slight advantage in court.

Currently, I use factory ammo in my SD weapon. My issue is one of reliability. While I have very rarely encountered failures with reloads, they have happened, usually a bad primer causes problems. So far, I've never had issue with factory ammo but then again, I don't use much factory ammo any more either......

--Wag--

--Wag--
 
This may be a dumb response but here goes--

How is prosecutor x going to know who made my ammo??

CSI probably. They do miracles in 60 minutes.
 
While I reload and would have full confidence in a round of ammo that I produce being reliable and consistant, I'm just not going to carry them for self defense because of the needless bs that can be dredged up in court about it to rake you over the coals. Even with factory ammo one is best to choose what the local law enforcement agencies are carrying in that caliber.
As it does help derail the opposition argueing that you are a irresponsible exotic ammo user.
 
I carry my own handloads. If I load Golden Saber, Hornaday XTP or Winchester Silver tips for 45 acp at around 900 fps I dont see how it could be used against me in court.
 
"The discussion of why using handloads can get your defense expert tossed out of the court before he even makes it to the witness box is most enlightening"
Interesting, possibly, enlightening not so much. Again we are in fantasy land. So again, no one, never, ever, in the history of the United States has ever been convicted for using reloaded ammunition for self-defense and no expert witness has ever been disqualified in a self-defense case because someone used a reload. It is hard to imagine a qualified expert being disqualified under any circumstance in a self-defense shooting or otherwise. Having used many expert witnesses in many cases the idea of not allowing a qualified expert to testify for a party in a civil or criminal case involving a self-defense shooting is far fetched. Why live a life of "what if something happened that never happened before and probably will never ever happen." Get insurance or join Ayoobs' group that provides help in self-defense shootings. Use common sense and make sure you are justified in using deadly force. Using the "logic" of the anti-reloadites, never use a 10mm or powerful gun as we know for sure that you can get $crewed using a 10mm.
 
Using the "logic" of the anti-reloadites, never use a 10mm or powerful gun as we know for sure that you can get $crewed using a 10mm.
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On one hand, you point out that you can indeed get screwed over for using a 10mm, which was designed to be and used as a service cartridge. Nevermind the LEOs that have used 357, 41, and 44 magnums, 308 rifles, and 12 guage shotguns. Yet, you expect us to believe that the same individuals who would screw someone over for using a perfectly suitable cartridge to defend themselves would never consider trying to paint someone as a gun nut or as trying to create more lethal rounds because they used handloads? Think about how that sounds for a moment.

I am not saying using handloads would be an issue but I also don't have enough faith in the individuals involved in our legal system to believe that it couldn't happen.
 
I attended a "Use of Lethal Force" workshop put together by a local gun shop, the sheriff's department, District Attorney's office, a circuit court judge and attorneys who would represent both the defense and the prosecution. When asked the question regarding reloads and self defense they all agreed that it was a minor point. It isn't the ammo that gets people in trouble, it's the fact that they talk to police without the benefit of an attorney being present during questioning.
 
Even with factory ammo one is best to choose what the local law enforcement agencies are carrying in that caliber.
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Because the you want the prosecution to say you are a cop wannabe?

Do you use ammo from the police, sheriff, dog catcher, constable, highway patrol, rangers (Texas), and if in the bigger cities from local federal agencies such as the US Marshalls, or FBI?

Lots of people get screwed using factory ammo as well. Fish did, though it wasn't just the ammo that got him screwed, but a set of laws, statements he made that didn't fit other witness testimonies, and an idiot lawyer. Ersland used factory ammo, and it wasn't even an issue.

The bottom line is that every aspect of the shoot will be scrutinized and it will be the prosecution's job, if you go to court, to try to get a conviction.

Ayoob thinks it is a bad idea. He has also noted that if the prosecution is going after your choice of ammo, then they really don't have a very good case.

If you take the time to look, ammo type is usually a minor point, but will be discussed quite often in cases. Lots of people get wrongly convicted when using factory ammo where ammo is mentioned in the case, such as Fish. In point of fact, most people wrongly convicted in shootings were using factory ammo.
 
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Because the you want the prosecution to say you are a cop wannabe?
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NO!

Because choosing the same ammo as the police has proven to be very court defensible.

Using the same ammo to protect yourself has the wisdom and judgement of your local police working in your favor.


It's ammo funded by the taxpayers (like those on the jury) and issued to the police so they can protect you, their bro/sister officers, other members of the public, and themselves.


Yes, the opposing attorney or prosecution may attempt to argue against you, but it's easily debunked.

Crap, if I can make a case for using the same ammo as the police, so can your lawyer.:D

Don't know the degree to which the prosecution made an issue of Mr. Fish's ammo. I do know they made an issue of the "excessive power" of the 10mm he carried. The lesson here might be to obtain a competent lawyer. One who can make a simple case to the jury for carrying such a weapon in bear and mountain lion country, as well as show general competency where the rest of Fish's defense was concerned. :cool:
 
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jmortimer said:
There is no case, never ever, where someone has been convicted of a crime because they used reloaded ammunition in self-defense.
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This is probably true, but I think a more apt statement of the situation is that there's no appellate case dealing with this issue. The lack of appellate cases on the issue doesn't prove much, though. AFAIK, there's also no appellate case in which GSR evidence using a handloader's bullets was admitted, either. It's still an issue of using the defendant's exemplars as the basis for expert testing.

I have to disagree with the statement that the idea of excluding expert testimony is all that far fetched. If you can show that his testing sample is tainted, you can get him thrown out. That showing is going to be easier with handloads than with factory ammo.

Every aspect of the shooting will be scrutinized. It's possible that a prosecutor could get a bee in his bonnet about the use of a large caliber, hollowpoints, . . . . any number of things. The difference between the examination of caliber or hollowpoints and handloads is that using a larger caliber or hollowpoints (factory) don't run the same risk of having their expert testimony excluded.
 
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Originally Posted by jmortimer
There is no case, never ever, where someone has been convicted of a crime because they used reloaded ammunition in self-defense.
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Ah, Jeez. Another one of those arguments.

Mr. Mortimer, my man. You or I might never know the degree to which that factor would figure into the jury's decision. It could be the argument, when weighed with the rest, that tips the jury's decision against you.

And it means time, at your expense @ $350 (ok, I'm guessing) an hour, countering the prosecutions' accusations--- even if your attorney is successful.

The prosecution will be looking for anything he can use against you without you putting more arrows in his quiver. There's such a thing as cumulative effect.:cool:
 
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