Do you carry at home - Why do people feel safe at home?

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My beliefs are simple ... Everyone has the god given inherent right to protect themselves. It is my take that for me to defend myself in these times a weapon for protection is a very prudent piece of protection. I also believe that anyone using or carrying a weapon should be required to take a weapons use course of some type. I have seen the all to true of shooting yourself in the foot saying come true on more than a few occasions for the simple fact of the people just not knowing what the hell they were doing.
 
I carry all the time, even into the bathroom. During my years in the 75th Ranger Regiment and the Ranger Training Brigade I had it constantly drilled into my head that you never let your weapon out of your hands reach. Used to sleep cuddling my M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (5.56 belt fed machine gun)
as if it were my bride, LOL! So having retired from the military I carry on that lesson learned and have an array of nasty weapons should any punks think about entering my castle. Speaking of which I am trying to petition my state to enact the Castle Doctrine law since other states are realizing we cannot and should not depend on law enforcement to protect us.
 
Yeah sure i carry at home. It has nothing to do with paranoia or stats, or comfort. It's just easier to put the belt on and leave it on rather than putting it on & off all he time or worrying if people think I'm para or not.

The gun keeps my pants up! My belt has stretched from constant gun/holster use so if'n I take it off my pants are loose...
 
yes usually. I keep my Berreta .32acp in my pocket of vest, jacket or pants if I'm outside for any lenght of time. I keep my Makarov handy inside the door I went out.
 
The statistical arguments, once again, seem to argue that the most common outcome is the one that always happens.

Since the most common DGU outcome is no shots fired - all those who carry ammo are paranoid fools. So what.

As I've said before, you make a reasoned estimate about the most extreme risk you want to be prepared for and act accordingly.
 
If I'm dressed, I have a belt on--always have as long as I can remember.

And you're always dressed at home?


This makes no sense--have you ever carried a concealed gun? The fact that a gun must be concealed definitely places more restrictions on where/how it must be carried in order to not be visible. That almost always translates to reduced comfort unless you can get away with throwing on a heavy covering garment (which would ALSO result in reduced comfort, from my perspective.)

It makes alot of sense considering that many people that carry at home do so because they have a CCW and carry concealed when in public. They aren't going to come home, take off their CCW holster, put on one that allows for open carry.


This is calling several people who've posted on this thread liars. What's even more irritating is that you're calling them liars based on your claimed ability to divine their thoughts and motives over the internet.

No, I don't think they are liars. I think that they feel that others will think they are paranoid if they just carry at home because they like to, so they give a "factually" based reason to make it seem more palatable.


You asked for an example, I gave you an "example of a situation (not involving crime or home invasion) where one might find it useful to have a gun while at home"

Then it was a weak example. I can also use my pistol to drive nails home, but its not really practical to do so.


Please cite a source for the statistics that an in home self-defense situation calling for the rapid deployment of a firearm has "a .00000000000000000000001% chance of happening". If you can't then you may feel free to admit that you did, in fact, make up a statistic, and then incorrectly contradicted me when I pointed it out.

Cmon now. You know exactly what I was trying to say. Of course that number was made up. It is, however representative of the situation. And for the record I didn't say that there is that much of a chance of someone needing a firearm to defend themselves in their home, I said that those were the chances of a situation happening where having a readily accessible firearm wouldn't solve the problem, but carrying one would.


You're certainly entitled to think what you want, but the fact is that kind of behavior is more normal than it is weird.

It may be normal in that many people do it, but it is still inconsistent.


Your whole argument, stated repeatedly, is that statistics don't justify carrying at home. It's fine for you to admit that you're not the "answer man" and don't know the applicable statistics but it's not fine for you to simultaneously claim that you have the final answer on whether or not it's statistically justified.

Its really quite simple. Most gun owners don't carry at home. Most people who defend themselves at home with a firearm aren't carrying at home. That tells me that having a firearm accessible is perfectly adequate for addressing the tiny tiny chance that something may ever happen. The only benefit that carrying gives you is in a percentage of the teeny tiny percentage where having the firearm accessible wouldn't cut it.

People who use the stats to justify this are pointing to a ridiculously small number and saying, "yeah its small but the consequences could mean my life". I get that as well. However there are other stats that say that for every 10 miles over the speed limit you drive, your chances of a fatal accident are doubled. The same with people who have had alcohol, even if its under the legal limit. The same with people who eat like crap, drink too much (which you shouldn't do at all if you have gun on) , smoke and do other things that are hazardous.

My entire point this whole time is that people are justifying carrying because it may save their life, are doing it out of a fear they they may be injured or killed. Yet, were guns aren't concerned, they do things that place their life in just as much detriment, and intentionally face a greater statistical threat of death and thats perfectly fine.

This is both inconsistent and hypocritical. Sure you can do this, but the argument "I'm doing it because there is a chance I might be hurt or killed" isn't valid when you do things that put you at greater risk of the same harm.


Don't smoke. (Apparently your remote thought divination skills are breaking down.)

Wasn't talking about you specifically. I guarantee you there are smokers that carry at home. Thats just nonsensical.

And yet you still think you know what goes on in my home.

Not specifically, but I know you shower, I know you sleep. The odds are that you drink, on occasion if not regularly. These, along with a couple of other things prohibit you from carrying.


You realize that basing your argument on things you claim I'm doing that you can not possibly have any knowledge of and on statistics that you admit you have no knowledge of is... Well, I guess this is why I keep coming back to the idea that your argument seems to be more emotional than logical.

So you dont shower? Don't sleep? Don't drink ever at your house? There isn't a statistically tiny chance for people living in normal neighborhoods to face a home invasion? Most people don't carry in the home? People don't use long arms to defend their home?

I suppose we could take a poll, but that would be silly, don't you think.


For the record, I didn't claim that in every situation the person being ridiculed is being ridiculed unjustly.

Nor do I think that every person who carrys in the home has an invalid reason.


The point was, rather, that it's human nature to try to ridicule those who prepare beyond the level we feel is necessary so that we don't have to admit that they might have a point.

Just as it is human nature to not be forthcoming about things we do that might make us the subject of ridicule.
 
The odds are that you drink, on occasion if not regularly. These, along with a couple of other things prohibit you from carrying.
Wrong. It prohibits us from leaving the house carrying. Show me the law that states that you must lock up your weapons if you are going to have a drink in your own home. And please don't bother with that " the fact that drinking and firearms don't mix is simple common sense." That presupposes that everybody is going to drink to an excess. I don't give up my right of self-defense at home whenever I decide to have a beer at dinner.
 
I wish JohnKSa and Stage 2 would give it a rest. The "I said", then "He said" exchange is getting tiresome. Neither has cited any stats with legs!
 
This seems to be a "What if game"for some.

I am trying to relate here.I know what Sandals(Jesus shoes)are and I can see where they would be hard to attach a firearm.I have no idea what "boardshorts"are.Could someone clue me in.

Also.I failed to mention in my earlier post.A intruder could most likely get to most guns stashed or locked up in my home before I can,being that I am a old cripple.Being my firearm is a part of me,I have eliminated arming intruders in my home with my guns.I do not find this socially acceptable or safe.I do not remember when I felt"safe or unsafe"anywhere as I never remember thinking like that when home or being fired at.Thanks.

I AIN'T DEAD AND I AIN'T QUITTING.alfred
 
Wrong. It prohibits us from leaving the house carrying. Show me the law that states that you must lock up your weapons if you are going to have a drink in your own home. And please don't bother with that " the fact that drinking and firearms don't mix is simple common sense." That presupposes that everybody is going to drink to an excess. I don't give up my right of self-defense at home whenever I decide to have a beer at dinner.

I never said there was a law. However drinking while carrying is irresponsible. It is irrelevant whether people drink to excess. You don't mix alcohol and firearms.

You certianly have a right to be irresponsible, but you shouldn't be surprised when people call you on it.
 
Several large dogs told me they would provide my first line of home security in exchange for ear scratching, kind words, and Old Roy.
 
I don't give up my right of self-defense at home whenever I decide to have a beer at dinner.

Sure, until you pop the neighbors kid, and he cops smell beer on your breath.....

WildaslongaswearedealingwithwhatifsAlaska TM
 
I don't personally carry at home for a variety of boring reasons, but for crying out loud, why are the people that choose not to carry at home so obnoxious, and vitriolic against those that choose to do so.

It does almost seem that people are reacting emotionally against the notion implicitly suggested by the practice of carrying at home, that one might not be as safe in one's own home as one might wish :D.
 
They aren't going to come home, take off their CCW holster, put on one that allows for open carry.
They most certainly will if their CCW holster isn't as comfortable as their open carry holster. Just like they take off their suit or high heels, and change into something more comfortable when they get home.
I think that they feel that others will think they are paranoid if they just carry at home because they like to, so they give a "factually" based reason to make it seem more palatable.
Just as it is human nature to not be forthcoming...
Where you live, what do they call it when someone is not forthcoming and makes up reasons to hide the truth? Everywhere I've been they call it lying.

You are calling some of the people posting on this thread liars based on what you believe they are thinking. I can see why you want to take this approach, it's EASY. It doesn't require you to actually do any research, it doesn't require you to find some statistics. It doesn't even require that you construct a logical argument. All you have to do is say: "You folks who disagree with me are lying to prevent me and others from calling you paranoid."

That is not a discussion, that is an insult.
So you dont shower? Don't sleep? Don't drink ever at your house? There isn't a statistically tiny chance for people living in normal neighborhoods to face a home invasion? Most people don't carry in the home? People don't use long arms to defend their home?
Basically what you're saying is that unless this technique can improve your safety 100% of the time while you're at home it's not worth employing. That doesn't follow.
JohnKSa said:
Ignoring your made up statistics...
Stage2 said:
There isn't anything made up about what I've said.
Stage2 said:
Of course that number was made up.
Oook.
Its really quite simple. Most gun owners don't carry at home. Most people who defend themselves at home with a firearm aren't carrying at home. That tells me that having a firearm accessible is perfectly adequate for addressing the tiny tiny chance that something may ever happen. The only benefit that carrying gives you is in a percentage of the teeny tiny percentage where having the firearm accessible wouldn't cut it.
In order to begin to make a cogent argument from this, you would have to examine the cases where people FAILED to defend themselves with firearms and determine how often they HAD firearms in the house but could not access them in time to respond. In short, this is not a reasonable argument because you have no data to support your claim. I do agree that it is "really quite simple", however.
This is both inconsistent and hypocritical. Sure you can do this, but the argument "I'm doing it because there is a chance I might be hurt or killed" isn't valid when you do things that put you at greater risk of the same harm.
By your logic, the only way to avoid hypocrisy and inconsistancy is to start at the top and work your way down the list of things that are a threat to life in order of decreasing statistical probability. I suppose you won't see (or at least won't admit) how ridiculous that would be to actually implement. So, using the STAGE2 rule of reducing risk, some people would have to move to a different city or even a different country before they could justify (without hypocrisy/inconsistency) owning a firearm or wearing seatbelts.

On top of that, your argument TOTALLY and COMPLETELY ignores the fact that there are more people involved than the person carrying the firearm. Sorry honey, I could have had my gun on me, prevented the home invasion and defended you and the kids but STAGE2 would have called me a hypocrite since I'm overweight and don't want to diet.

You've attempted to construct an argument based on:

  • Statistics that you admit you don't have knowledge of
  • Statistics you've made up.
  • Statistics you've tried to manufacture out of statistics you admit you have no knowledge of and others that you've made up.
  • Illogical reasoning.
  • What you believe people are thinking.
  • Calling people who disagree with you liars.

I say attempted because all it is is an attempt. Basically what you're doing is coming up with a lot of creative ways to say, "This is my opinion therefore it is more correct than other people's opinions who disagree with me."
Neither has cited any stats with legs!
Actually I have quoted a very pertinent statistic. Here's another. Studies have shown that resisting crime with a firearm offers the best chance, statistically speaking, of remaining uninjured. If you'd like to resist crime in the most effective manner it follows that having a firearm handy is most useful.

Furthermore, I'm not making any sweeping claims that need statistical support, I'm countering the argument that most people who carry at home are either paranoid, lying to avoid being called paranoid, or ignorant of reality.
It does almost seem that people are reacting emotionally against the notion implicitly suggested by the practice of carrying at home, that one might not be as safe in one's own home as one might wish
It does, kinda... ;)
 
I would be curious to know what a person's chance of facing a home invasion truely is...I am willing to bet it is not substantially less than their chance of using a firearm in SD during their daily activities. I am betting both very unlikely and the difference would be mathematically and practically insignificant.
 
They most certainly will if their CCW holster isn't as comfortable as their open carry holster. Just like they take off their suit or high heels, and change into something more comfortable when they get home.

Very very doubtful. However, the overall point was that the most comfortable holster is far more unconfortable than not carrying.


Where you live, what do they call it when someone is not forthcoming and makes up reasons to hide the truth? Everywhere I've been they call it lying.

You are calling some of the people posting on this thread liars based on what you believe they are thinking. I can see why you want to take this approach, it's EASY. It doesn't require you to actually do any research, it doesn't require you to find some statistics. It doesn't even require that you construct a logical argument. All you have to do is say: "You folks who disagree with me are lying to prevent me and others from calling you paranoid."

That is not a discussion, that is an insult.

No, I think some part of them believes that there is a statistical chance that they might face a home invasion, because thats simply a fact. However I also think that they know its not going to happen and carry cause they like it.

Same reason lots of people buy trucks or 4x4s. Most people will never take it off road or use it for its intended purpose. When you ask them why they bought it they will list you all the cool stuff it can do, all the hills it can climb, and all the stuff it can haul. However deep down, most just bought it cause they wanted a truck.

Its not lying, its just not offering the whole truth.


Basically what you're saying is that unless this technique can improve your safety 100% of the time while you're at home it's not worth employing. That doesn't follow.

No, I'm saying that if your reason for carrying is the statistics, then carrying at home really doesn't provide you with much of a benefit because the nature of activities done in the home prohibit carry much of the time and the chances of a readily accessible firearm not being sufficient are slim to none.


In order to begin to make a cogent argument from this, you would have to examine the cases where people FAILED to defend themselves with firearms and determine how often they HAD firearms in the house but could not access them in time to respond. In short, this is not a reasonable argument because you have no data to support your claim. I do agree that it is "really quite simple", however.

The argument is perfectly fine. Most gun owners don't carry in the home. Most people who have defended themselves with a firearm in their home weren't carrying. I'm going to assume you agree with these two assertions (which you should).

According to the UCR, in 2006, there were 1.4 million violent crimes committed in the US. There were approximately 300 million people living in the US. That means you have a .4% chance of facing violent crime in general. However we aren't talking about violent crime in general, we are talking about crime in the home.

There were approximately 290k violent crimes committed in the home. That means you have a .09% chance of facing a home invasion. Of course this doesn't take into account high crime areas versus low crime areas, so if you live in the suburbs, your chances are lower. Furthermore, these stats don't take into account crime comitted by family members (which accounts for an overwhelming majority of assaults in the home as well as some rapes) so this lowers the percentage even further still.

So after some generous fuzzy math, lets say that someone who lives in a normal nice suburb and isn't going to shoot their wife/brother/uncle has a .045% chance of facing a home invasion. This .045% constitutes 100% of the situations that a home owner is going to face. Within this 100% there is going to be a percentage of situations that a home owner faces that simply having a gun won't be sufficient. Now since we know that most gun owners don't carry at home, and by consequence, most crimes prevented by gun owners are done by those who don't carry, only a small portion of this 100% is going to be a situation in which having a readily accessible firearm isn't sufficient.

So lets be generous and say that 30% of all home invasions are the type where having the gun in the nightstand isn't going to cut it. That means the chances of you facing this situation are somewhere around .01%.

Contrast this with the 9% chance americans have of developing some form of serious heart disease, or the .1% chance of dying from a smoke related illness, or the 40k plus people killed every year on the road and you see where the inconsistency lies.

Simply put, you can't say "I carry at home because I value my life" and then take other actions that work in immediate contradiction to the valuation that you've professed.


On top of that, your argument TOTALLY and COMPLETELY ignores the fact that there are more people involved than the person carrying the firearm. Sorry honey, I could have had my gun on me, prevented the home invasion and defended you and the kids but STAGE2 would have called me a hypocrite since I'm overweight and don't want to diet.

Whether there are more people involved has nothing to do with the odds of facing a home invasion.

And again, whether someone does it isn't the issue. I don't really care. But yes someone is a hypocrite if they carry to defend their life, but then undermine this in other areas of their life.

Both you and I know that there isn't any other area in which someone would take a precaution based on a .01% chance of something happening, and yet with guns, people somehow find the gumption to be vigilant. I'm fairly certian that this has more to do with the "mystique" or novelty of packing a gun than any genuine concern of facing a home invasion.
 
Both you and I know that there isn't any other area in which someone would take a precaution based on a .01% chance of something happening and yet with guns, people somehow find the gumption to be vigilant.
You don't read the news, do you. The prospect of home invasion and what can result is so unthinkable that people are motivated to take precautions against it in spite of the very low chances of it actually happening to them.

Yes, I'd venture to guess that there are very few things that people would prepare against when the odds were so slim--then again, there isn't much in this world that compares to having someone beat you with a bat and leave you for dead, tie your wife and daughters to their beds, rape them, douse them in gasoline and then burn them.

Why don't you talk to Dr. William Petit Jr. about statistics? I'm sure he'd be comforted by knowing that what happened to his family was extremely rare as, no doubt, any of us in his situation would be. :rolleyes:
I'm fairly certian that this has more to do with the "mystique" of packing a gun than any genuine concern of facing a home invasion.
I can see that--you're so certain that you're completely unwilling to be dissuaded by facts. Which gets us back to the comment by Son of Vlad Tepes.
So lets be generous and say that 30% of all home invasions are the type where having the gun in the nightstand isn't going to cut it. That means the chances of you facing this situation are somewhere around .01%.
I don't agree, I think the number is probably smaller, some of your assumptions are pretty generous, but I do agree this is a huge advance from making up statistics like: "a .00000000000000000000001% chance of happening".
Simply put, you can't say "I carry at home because I value my life" and then take other actions that work in immediate contradiction to the valuation that you've professed.
Ah, there is where you are completely, totally and unredeemably wrong. One CAN do that and one can even justify it beyond question.

1. You've artificially restricted your premise to help your conclusion. No one's saying that it's EXCLUSIVELY about preserving their own life. It's about preventing a home invasion, a crime which often encompasses things that most people would consider FAR worse than simply dying.

2. Most people don't live alone. Therefore their actions benefit others besides themselves. So even if we accept the idea that it's hypocritical for someone to worry about self-defense but not heart disease or lung cancer, it is clear that they could still be tremendously motivated defend others without creating a contradiction. Example: Frank doesn't really care much about his cholesterol level but, believe it or not, would REALLY be upset if he had to watch someone break into his house and rape his wife.

3. It's possible for a person to be apparently unconcerned about their physical well-being (overweight, smoker, risk taker) and yet still be legitimately concerned about having someone else kill them. It's the difference between giving all your money away to bums on the street vs having them mob you and empty your pockets of your life's savings. Either is equally financially devastating, but the two outcomes are far from equivalent.

4. Many do not consider dying of disease to be as forbidding as a violent death. Example: Mary refuses to give up smoking but is, oddly enough, still adamantly opposed to having a home invader tie her up, pour gasoline on her and burn her alive.
 
You don't read the news, do you. The prospect of home invasion and what can result is so unthinkable that people are motivated to take precautions against it in spite of the very low chances of it actually happening to them.

Unless you make a practice of sleeping with your gun or staying up till 3am every night, carrying wouldn't have done anything to prevent this crime.

Yes, I'd venture to guess that very few things that people would prepare against when the odds were so slim--then again, there isn't much in this world that compares to having someone beat you with a bat and leave you for dead, tie your wife and daughters to their beds, rape them, douse them in gasoline and then burn them.

Why don't you talk to Dr. William Petit Jr. about statistics? I'm sure he'd be comforted by knowing that what happened to his family was extremely rare as, no doubt, any of us in his situation would be.

Well, the first thing I'd ask him is whether or not he owned a gun. Then I'd ask him if he locks his doors, has an alarm system, and/or a dog. As I said above, carrying would have done nothing to prevent this crime, so this example is little more than an emotional appeal.


I can see that--you're so certain that you're completely unwilling to be dissuaded by facts. Which gets us back to the comment by Son of Vlad Tepes.

Facts such as what.

I don't agree, I think the number is probably smaller, some of your assumptions are pretty generous, but I do agree this is a huge advance from making up statistics like: "a .00000000000000000000001% chance of happening".

Not as much as you might think. You have to remember that the final number I arrived at doesn't take into account the time that people are actually carrying in the home. Assuming an average person with a normal job getting 7-8 hours of sleep, on an average weekday more than half the time they are home they are going to be unarmed. This combined with the overly generous numbers I was using make outlandishly small percentages a definate reality. So while it may not be the number I posted, both you and I know that practically speaking, the difference between .000001% and .00000000000000000000000001% is nothing.


1. You've artificially restricted your premise to help your conclusion. No one's saying that it's EXCLUSIVELY about preserving their own life. It's about preventing a home invasion, a crime which often encompasses things that most people would consider FAR worse than simply dying.

Actually several people have said its about protecting their life. Sure there are really nasty things other than death that people can face, but I don't recall any of the home carry advocates talk abour rape or gasoline or anything else. All I heard was "to protect my life".


2. Most people don't live alone. Therefore their actions benefit others besides themselves. So even if we accept the idea that it's hypocritical for someone to worry about self-defense but not heart disease or lung cancer, it is clear that they could still be tremendously motivated defend others without creating a contradiction. Example: Frank doesn't really care much about his cholesterol level but, believe it or not, would REALLY be upset if he had to watch someone break into his house and rape his wife.

But then we get into the issue of if they really cared about defending others, then they wouldn't artifically shorten their own life because this obviously precludes them from defending the ones they love.

If frank croaks because he was sucking down steak and eggs everyday that doesn't do his wife much goos when the bad guy comes knocking.


3. It's possible for a person to be apparently unconcerned about their physical well-being (overweight, smoker, risk taker) and yet still be legitimately concerned about having someone else kill them. It's the difference between giving all your money away to bums on the street vs having them mob you and empty your pockets of your life's savings. Either is equally financially devastating, but the two outcomes are far from equivalent.

Possible yes. Possible without being hypocritical and inconsistent, no. Your example of the money isn't analogous. In one case the person wants to give all their money away and in the other case they dont. Here, people are making the statement that their life is valuable and they are going to take precautions to guard against an implausible harm.

A better example would be someone who refuses to place their money in a bank because they fear losing it because of another depression/fraud/shady dealing, but then leave it sitting all around their house. Sure they've eliminated the problem of a bank losing their money (even though the odds of this happening are slim to none) but they've put it at risk of being stolen, lost or destroyed. The overall fear is losing your money. The irrational fear is losing your money thats in a bank. The more rational fear which isn't being guarded against is letting it just sit there. If you're trying not to lose your money, you don't defend against one measure and not against the other if you want to be consistent.


4. Many do not consider dying of disease to be as forbidding as a violent death. Example: Mary refuses to give up smoking but is, oddly enough, still adamantly opposed to having a home invader tie her up, pour gasoline on her and burn her alive.

Hey. I can only work with what people give me. If people make the caveat that they don't want to die a violent death at the hands of another, but a slow death over time is acceptable, then I guess I dont have an argument. But thats not what they say.

However I think you know that this isn't the case. People don't want to die period. Granted someone in your home at 3am puts a much sharper point on the issue than does a pack a week over decades, the end result is the same.
 
Wow!

I do believe that the post on this thread could be well used to argue that the Paranoid,Mentally ill and Bull Manure proficient own firearms.Wow!Just look at what many think of each others mentality alone.

Folks,I find you very entertaining.This is a awakening.I had no idea that so many think the way some do on here.Thanks.

I AIN'T DEAD AND I AIN'T QUITTING!alfred
 
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