Do people really think you must Overnight UPS a gun to an FFL?
- Thread starter tjhands
- Start date
This is exactly how I feel. Thank you for your contributions to this thread. 
When I sent my Redhawk back to Ruger a couple years back it went UPS ground in two boxes. I talked with the UPS counter rep and he said as far as he (UPS?) was concerned neither box was a firearm if the cylinder assembly was in one and the frame in another. I don't know if this is common at all UPS shipping centers, but it worked then. Insured them too.
This was a UPS shipping facility and not one of those pack-n-mail places, BTW.
Does anyone know if UPS officially defines a handgun the same way ATF does?
This was a UPS shipping facility and not one of those pack-n-mail places, BTW.
Does anyone know if UPS officially defines a handgun the same way ATF does?
freakshow10mm
Moderator
The frame of a handgun is a handgun.
Yep, every now and then, the counter person's ignorance will work to our advantage. The insurance you purchased on the handgun frame would have been worthless, though.
Yep.
And that is the UPS and BATFE definition of a handgun. The slide, barrel, magazine, and whatever other removable parts are just parts, but the serialized frame is the gun.
David Armstrong
Moderator
We'll disagree. IMO, ANYTIME we see gunowners advocating dishonest or unethical activity, especially if it has something to do with guns, fellow gunowners should point out that it is dishonest/unethical and is not indicative of how the rest of us act or feel.
freakshow10mm
Moderator
Ethics differ between people. What is ethical to one may be unethical to others. How about we let the decision maker be the decision maker and not judge other people?
David, you read the letter that LT posted; it confirms everything that my original post and, more importantly by far, the ATF's website states as far as what the law is in this matter.
I realize that you're taking a "high ground" approach to this issue, and that's OK, but it does obfuscate the intent of the thread. I just wanted to clear up the legal questions involved.
I realize that you're taking a "high ground" approach to this issue, and that's OK, but it does obfuscate the intent of the thread. I just wanted to clear up the legal questions involved.
David Armstrong
Moderator
And I have not disagreed with that. What I have disagreed with, and will disagree with, is the concept that it is OK to be dishonest and lie to the agent about what you are shipping: If you choose to be dishonest (read: NOT illegal) and say that the box contains chess pieces,....
If a 01 FFL is shipping a hand gun to another 01 FFL they are allowed to use the post office. What does that cost compared to UPS ground? By the way, post office policy is over night as well.
Navy LT
I think you missed my point in my earlier post. If you saw how packages are handled at UPS, you wouldn't want to give up your insurance. Next day air packages are also handled with more care and a lot more priority than regular ground. That translates into less time to do damage to the package or steal it. The sooner its out of UPS hands the better.
Being able to have a choice between ground and next day air is a moot point because you don't have the choice as far as UPS is concerned. That means you give up your insurance and that sounds penny wise and dollar foolish.
Tjhands
If the intention of your original post was just to inform, then what was the purpose of these words?
Your whole post is full of crazy. Not even gonna waste the time tearing it apart...
Do people really think
Instead of getting a kick out of it, and watching you humiliate yourselves
Navy LT
I think you missed my point in my earlier post. If you saw how packages are handled at UPS, you wouldn't want to give up your insurance. Next day air packages are also handled with more care and a lot more priority than regular ground. That translates into less time to do damage to the package or steal it. The sooner its out of UPS hands the better.
Being able to have a choice between ground and next day air is a moot point because you don't have the choice as far as UPS is concerned. That means you give up your insurance and that sounds penny wise and dollar foolish.
Tjhands
If the intention of your original post was just to inform, then what was the purpose of these words?
Your whole post is full of crazy. Not even gonna waste the time tearing it apart...
Do people really think
Instead of getting a kick out of it, and watching you humiliate yourselves
It seems to me that there are 3 separate threads going here: legality, ethics, and company policy.
1. Legality: it would appear that TJHands has proved his case for the
legality of what he suggests.
2. Ethics: What one would call "dishonest" gets into a whole 'nother world of
speculation. If one has ever gone 1 mile over the legal speed limit
and not reported himself to the law falls into this category...how
absolute do you want ethics or morals to be?
3. Company policy: Do companies have the right to set rules apart from
what laws demand, and what are we to do if we dis-
agree with those policies?
I have my own ideas about all three of these separately, but when you try to mix them in a thread like TJHands has started, things get bogged down pretty quickly.
1. Legality: it would appear that TJHands has proved his case for the
legality of what he suggests.
2. Ethics: What one would call "dishonest" gets into a whole 'nother world of
speculation. If one has ever gone 1 mile over the legal speed limit
and not reported himself to the law falls into this category...how
absolute do you want ethics or morals to be?
3. Company policy: Do companies have the right to set rules apart from
what laws demand, and what are we to do if we dis-
agree with those policies?
I have my own ideas about all three of these separately, but when you try to mix them in a thread like TJHands has started, things get bogged down pretty quickly.
Which brings up another interesting aspect. We have had many arguments lately over a state passing a law allowing employees (personal rights) to bring firearms onto their employers parking lot (property rights) without retribution.
Does UPS and Fed Ex have the right as property owners to require shippers to either declare their firearms and ship them overnight or to prohibit firearms on their property (depots, shipping centers, warehouses, airplanes, trucks, etc)?
One could argue that as property owners, they have a legal right to dictate shipping terms if you want to bring firearms onto their property.
Well..... I don't know if I can agree with that. We all know what the BATF rules are. But I had a lengthy conversation with Mr. Cogan one day. He's the owner of APW and it is literally their business to be shipping handguns in and out every day. And they use UPS. So Mr. Cogan told me that he requested a meeting with the local UPS big wig. They went out to lunch and talked. The UPS regional manager told Mr. Cogan that as far as UPS was concerned, a "handgun" had to be a functional firearm. UPS was concerned that somebody would steal a functional handgun out of a shipment and then use it to commit a crime. But they were not concerned about somebody shipping a stripped 1911 frame, for instance.
So APW's official shipment policy is right there on their website. Break the gun down into two packages with "major components" in each box.
http://www.apwcogan.com/company.htm
My only reservation with this method is that it seems kind of silly to walk up to the counter and mail two separate packages to the same place and not think some village idiot couldn't just take both. So when I sent a handgun to APW, what I did was strip most everything off the receiver. That receiver then went UPS Second Day and was insured as sporting goods. The barrel, slide and a couple of small parts I went and shipped at the US Post Office. Where they do follow the BATF definition of a firearm. So for the US Post Office I correctly marked the package as "assorted firearms parts." Both packages arrived with no problem and it was still far cheaper than a single overnight package.
We all have to live within our own comfort level.
Gregg
And that is the difference between Federal law and company policy. Company policy may state that a handgun receiver is not a firearm, but the Federal law and BATFE state that it is.
18 UNITED STATES CODE 921:
I don't know about you, but to me the letters "USC" mean a lot more than "UPS". People go to jail violating "USC", people don't go to jail violating "UPS".
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protectedbyglock
New member
Not to butt into your conversation here, but I've known an FFL in my state for many years, and you wouldn't believe how many guns he gets from every carrier, every different service type. The delivery person always laughs and says "look like you got some more auto parts today"... 
People just don't know or care. They send handguns every which way, with absolutely no concern for rules.
He has yet to have an issue, thankfully, and he'll tell you the right way to do it, but many times it doesn't slow people down.
I also knew a guy who used to work with me, whose dad sent a rifle directly to him once for his birthday. The old man sent it from Washington State to Pensylvania by UPS ground. He wrote in big letters on the side "Fragile - Lamp". My buddy called him up and told him that he can't just do that, but the old man had no idea he'd even done anything wrong. He told my buddy that he labled it a lamp so that the people at UPS wouldn't try to steal it!
People just don't know or care. They send handguns every which way, with absolutely no concern for rules.
He has yet to have an issue, thankfully, and he'll tell you the right way to do it, but many times it doesn't slow people down.
I also knew a guy who used to work with me, whose dad sent a rifle directly to him once for his birthday. The old man sent it from Washington State to Pensylvania by UPS ground. He wrote in big letters on the side "Fragile - Lamp". My buddy called him up and told him that he can't just do that, but the old man had no idea he'd even done anything wrong. He told my buddy that he labled it a lamp so that the people at UPS wouldn't try to steal it!