Do not use airosft or air guns for firearms training

[FireForged]

Let me try again.

1. It's unreasonable to expect any type of training to be conducted in exactly the "way people fight". That's simply impossible. Therefore, unless one takes the view that all training is useless because it doesn't fully replicate "the way people fight", or "would fight" , it is a given that there is the possibility that at least some benefits can be derived from something that does not fully replicate "the way people fight", or "would fight".

Brother.. when we talk about "training" there are certain basic or fundamental edicts of fighting ( lawful self defense) no matter if it relates to the citizen, leo, soldier, protective services or whatever. What I am so poorly trying to say is that rarely are these edicts something that are promoted, re-enforced, introduced, developed or even thought about in a "game". Why should it?.. its just a game. Games are often full of optics, nuance and perhaps some familiar coloring around the edges but I call that "mimicking" not simulating. You keep using the word "replicate".. and thats fine but that is not want I am talking about and its not what I said.

A common concept involved in "simulating" certain conditions or environments generally allows for the existence of suboptimal ( less than perfect) margins which may result from limited time, safety concerns, lack of funding, unreasonable logistical consideration, space or other related factors. A fair and reasonable representation is not a foreign standard, it is often the intent.

Being under water isnt the same as being in space but its a fair/reasonable simulation in my opinion.


Just to get the glossary of terms out of the way:

In my mind, replicate would be the highest form of training reproduction which is cost intensive, risky and (although possible), not often achieved. A simulation would be a fair and reasonable recreation which closely mirrors the intended environment. Mimicking would often be considered a superficial nuance.

 

[JohnKSa]

What I'm wondering about is WHY would you use an airsoft (etc) for that??

Why not use a real gun?? Why not use THE real gun you would really be using in a "non-training" situation???

1. You can shoot them inside your house with no concern about lead contamination, noise issues. backstop concerns, etc.
2. They are more economical than firearms to shoot.
3. Airsoft can be used for training where firearms would be too dangerous to use--FOF type scenarios. In some ways this is true of airguns, but less so since they are potentially more dangerous than Airsoft guns.
4. Legal restrictions on them tend to be pretty mild. It has been mentioned more than once that a Japanese firearms afficionado does his training with Airsoft in his home country and then enters competitions in the U.S. with borrowed firearms. Training with firearms in his home country simply isn't an option.

They have some very obvious limitations, but there are some benefits to using them.

What I am so poorly trying to say is that rarely are these edicts something that are promoted, re-enforced, introduced, developed or even thought about in a "game".

Well, 'rarely' is a fairly 'fuzzy' term, so I think I can agree with that. 'Rarely' is not the same thing as 'never' which is good because there are clearly some games that are specifically designed to provide training. I mentioned one obvious one in my previous post.

Games are often full of optics, nuance and perhaps some familiar coloring around the edges but I call that "mimicking" not simulating.

Whether one calls it mimicking, simulating or replicating, it's true that no game (and no training) will do it perfectly.

That's what I keep trying to say. The fact that a game (or training) can't mimick, simulate, replicate "real combat" or the "way people fight/would fight" perfectly doesn't mean that it provides no value at all. That is a very good thing since that would mean that the only way to train would be to actually be in real combat or actually fighting.

Many games provide zero training value. Some provide minimal training value. Some provide pretty good training value. Completely writing something off as having no value because it's a game is a mistake. It would be unwarranted to assume that because a game has gunlike things it must be good for training, but it's also unwarranted to assume that because it's a game it can't provide any value other than entertainment.

 

[Double K]

You can train your self to handle a firearm and go through the motions of all sorts of shooting/self defense scenarios with fake guns-which you should do btw.
Most people have neither the time nor the resources to go to a range and do it with a real gun.
Neither one will prepare a person for real gun fight 100% but will either one help, absolutely.
Dry firing and shooting authentic replica guns makes the gun handling second nature for me so that I can concentrate on the mental aspect of shooting/self defense.

 

[Slopemeno]

Played paintball for 35 years. I now play recreationally with guys who played on the Ironmen. The strange thing I found with paintball is how *close* it is to 'ol PPC shooting. A rather notorious Ironmen player from the '90's Marty Bush- the last guy to use a pump gun in the pros- came up with a training drill that is PPC all-over, the "Marty Drill"

Just about wore out a Webley Hurricane air pistol working on my front sight focus on my way to USPSA A-class. Probably did 100,000 dry fire cycles back in my USPSA days. If dry-fire works, and it does, btw, why doesn't any other gun game help?

Any trigger time is better than no trigger time.

 

[44 AMP]

Anyway, I think most of us agree the initial post is bunk and that any training is better than no training.

I'll agree with the first part, but not the second.

Bad training is WORSE than NO training...

And, "bad training" may not be actual formal training, but just following the established usual procedures (including range procedures) and can even include the bad training we get from popular FICTION entertainment on TV and the movies.

I asked,

What I'm wondering about is WHY would you use an airsoft (etc) for that??

Why not use a real gun?? Why not use THE real gun you would really be using in a "non-training" situation???

and got some interesting replies with some valid points, but not the answer(s) I was looking for.

First off, lets be clear, we all seem to agree that airsoft etc. does not and cannot reproduce the experience of firing live ammunition. Everything up to that point, perhaps, and in some degree, yes, but even firing airsoft stops well short of firing actual live service ammunition. Agreed??

I could see starting a new shooter with an airsoft item that replicates a real arm's operation. When the shooter is truly unfamiliar with firearms, he can't have the universe of safety habits we all take for granted, so he gets cocooned in my attention and almost constant communication.

I understand this reasoning, but it doesn't answer my question, All the learning safety, operating methods and everything short of firing live ammo can (and I think, should) be learned using a real gun (unloaded or filled with inert rounds-always). It seems to me that one of the big drawbacks to training with a "non-gun" particularly with a beginner is that the beginner KNOWS its not a real gun. Deep down, they know that any mistakes cannot do real harm, and that may affect their dedication and focus to learning to do the right things all the time.

1. You can shoot them inside your house with no concern about lead contamination, noise issues. backstop concerns, etc.
2. They are more economical than firearms to shoot.
3. Airsoft can be used for training where firearms would be too dangerous to use--FOF type scenarios. In some ways this is true of airguns, but less so since they are potentially more dangerous than Airsoft guns.
4. Legal restrictions on them tend to be pretty mild. It has been mentioned more than once that a Japanese firearms afficionado does his training with Airsoft in his home country and then enters competitions in the U.S. with borrowed firearms. Training with firearms in his home country simply isn't an option.

Valid points but beyond the scope of my question. #1 and #2 are about shooting and my question about using actual firearms over replicas stops deliberately stops short of actual firing.
#3, I don't understand. When, (and how?) is an unloaded firearm "too dangerous to use"?????
and #4 simply doesn't apply to my point, legal restrictions in other countries are not my concern here.

Most people have neither the time nor the resources to go to a range and do it with a real gun.

This idea has popped up a couple times, that one needs to be on a range in order to train with a real gun. Again, my point is, short of actual firing live ammo, you don't need to be on a range.

I realize the responses include both inital familiarization with a firearm and the advanced training combined, so perhaps that's why I'm not getting what I'm looking for?

Also, I'm not looking at this from the perspective of professional trainers giving classes and courses, and that maybe makes the difference??

I have real guns. I don't have any airsoft or non-gun replicas. Why would I go out and get those instead of using the real guns to teach someone how to safely operate firearms??

 

[zukiphile]

1. You can shoot them inside your house with no concern about lead contamination, noise issues. backstop concerns, etc.
2. They are more economical than firearms to shoot.
3. Airsoft can be used for training where firearms would be too dangerous to use--FOF type scenarios. In some ways this is true of airguns, but less so since they are potentially more dangerous than Airsoft guns.
4. Legal restrictions on them tend to be pretty mild. It has been mentioned more than once that a Japanese firearms afficionado does his training with Airsoft in his home country and then enters competitions in the U.S. with borrowed firearms. Training with firearms in his home country simply isn't an option.

Valid points but beyond the scope of my question. #1 and #2 are about shooting and my question about using actual firearms over replicas stops deliberately stops short of actual firing.

Emphasis added. I don't believe the air-soft training advocates are limiting the value of that training as you have. The ability to run through the entire activity of shooting, including actually shooting something, is present.

Would I buy an air-soft item just to introduce someone to shooting? Depending on price and who I am introducing, I might. Before air-soft popped onto my radar a couple of years ago in reading a thread here, I bought a CMP air rifle to introduce my 10 year old daughter to shooting; with no ear protection and in our back yard she took it seriously and was able to see how following my instructions on the trigger press helped improve accuracy. I think it was $100. I was able to instruct and observe her compliance before the 22lr was introduced.

Maybe I wasted $100, but maybe I avoided confusion at a range and a terrible accident.

I'm not a professional instructor either, but I've introduced secretaries, clerks, friends' wives and my own daughters to shooting. I can appreciate the value in beginning with something less than a firearm.

 

[luger fan]

If it helps YOU roll with it. Everything isn't for everyone.

 

[stephen426]

I could see starting a new shooter with an airsoft item that replicates a real arm's operation. When the shooter is truly unfamiliar with firearms, he can't have the universe of safety habits we all take for granted, so he gets cocooned in my attention and almost constant communication. A loud range and lots of actual gunfire works against that communication even with electronic ear protection.

If I can do that in a non-threatening atmosphere like a suburban backyard, and speak in a conversational voice, I'm not competing with recoil and noise for that person's attention.

I actually use an airsoft to teach new shooters for the very reasons you mentioned. I cover safety rules, stance, grip, aiming, breathing and trigger control before they ever handle a real gun. The airsoft guns I have are not exact replicas so I can't teach them loading, reloading, racking the slide (etc.), but it gets them "safe" and teaches them not to flinch. I then start them on .22 LR until they are comfortable enough to move up.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

First off, lets be clear, we all seem to agree that airsoft etc. does not and cannot reproduce the experience of firing live ammunition.

Neither does dry firing yet it is an oft used training and practice method.

 

[stephen426]

The person who made the original post has not responded to the two pages of comments to his post. He was either just trying to drive traffic to his YouTube page or really does not like people disagreeing with him.

 

[luger fan]

Or maybe he has a life and doesn't spend his life on gun sites? There is a lot of us out there.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The person who made the original post has not responded to the two pages of comments to his post. He was either just trying to drive traffic to his YouTube page or really does not like people disagreeing with him.

He also hasn't been back on this site since approximately 17 minutes after posting his magnum opus. There's no way of knowing what his motive was for posting but, IMHO, there's no reason to post anything more in this thread unless he returns to defend his position.

I think we should all back off and allow this thread to find its way into oblivion.

 

[TunnelRat]

The person who made the original post has not responded to the two pages of comments to his post. He was either just trying to drive traffic to his YouTube page or really does not like people disagreeing with him.

Considering the links are to a variety of YouTube pages, a number of them well known, I’m going to say getting more views wasn’t his motive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FireForged]

Or maybe he has a life and doesn't spend his life on gun sites? There is a lot of us out there.

This is one of those ( stir the pot) posts. I never had any real expectation of the OP returning after post one. It doesnt mean that he wont return to contribute but its not what I expect. This isnt the only forum where this post has surfaced.

 

[JohnKSa]

Valid points but beyond the scope of my question. #1 and #2 are about shooting and my question about using actual firearms over replicas stops deliberately stops short of actual firing.
#3, I don't understand. When, (and how?) is an unloaded firearm "too dangerous to use"?????
and #4 simply doesn't apply to my point, legal restrictions in other countries are not my concern here.

If you have a question but the scope of the answers you are interested in is quite narrow, it's simpler to specify that scope initially instead of asking a broad question, getting a lot of valid answers and then having to narrow things down.

1. There are specific uses of airsoft that REQUIRE firing the gun in situations where it would be pointless to use an inert gun of some sort. If the goal is to use the gun as a kind of simulated firearm where hits can be scored, say, on another person during a FOF exercise, clearly an unloaded gun can't do that, and using a loaded gun to shoot at another person would be insanity.

2. Although unloaded firearms aren't dangerous at all (excepting, of course, the Swedish Ljungman that took a chunk out of my thumb ), we see a significant number of "unloaded firearms" that are discharged because they aren't really unloaded at all. Using an airsoft eliminates the possibility that a live round of firearm ammunition could be discharged.

3. What airsoft doesn't replicate is the firing behavior/recoil behavior of the firearm. It can be used, for example, for draw practice (or practice from a ready position) where a single shot is fired and then it is a pretty good trainer for the same action with a firearm. If you want to fire multiple shots, the training benefit falls off considerably because the recoil behavior is markedly different. Obviously an airsoft can be used for that kind of training (single shot from draw or ready) in situations (e.g. a living room) where it would be difficult, impossible, or unsafe to use a firearm. And using an unloaded firearm for that wouldn't allow the shot to be scored.

Why would I go out and get those instead of using the real guns to teach someone how to safely operate firearms??

I'm not really seeing anyone suggesting that it's NECESSARY to use airsoft for training. If you want to keep doing it how you've always done it, I don't think anyone is going to have any heartburn with that at all.

The OP made the claim that people shouldn't train with airsoft, and people are commenting that there's really no reason not to (as long as one understands the limitations of the system)--nobody is trying to make the case that you HAVE to train with them to do it right.

He was either just trying to drive traffic to his YouTube page or really does not like people disagreeing with him.

Although it might seem to be a YT view gambit, the links are all to different channels. It appears that the OP genuinely feels like this is a truth he has stumbled onto and he wants to make sure everyone else knows about it too.

This isnt the only forum where this post has surfaced.

Yup.

 

[stinkeypete]

“Reductio ad absurdum” - this is a way of evaluating the truth of a position by “reducing it to the absurd”. Let’s try!
1. Airsoft guns are of absolutely no benefit to training because it’s not “real”
Okay, if you believe that then how about

2. Shooting any firearm or power level of ammunition that isn’t what you use is of absolutely no benefit because it’s not “real”
Well, If I agree with No.1 then I guess I agree with No. 2.

3. Shooting in well lit areas at stationary targets made of paper or steel is of no benefit because the conditions are not real and the targets will never shoot back at you! It’s not real! You must also account for environment, uncertainty, fear- the overpowering effect of Adrenalin!
Well, we know that combat veterans are much more effective in battle... and it’s true, steel plates don’t move or shoot back. They are not real, so... I agree.

4. “The only effective training is real world experience!”. This reminds me of “the return of the Pink Panther- Cato fight” (look it up on YouTube yourself for a laugh)... we should have our servants attacking us at random with real weapons to train.

Yes, the best training is years of experience coupled with seminars, reading, learning and practice drills. Believing that anything less than ultimate reality is useless leads us to ridiculous conclusions. Okay- here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghBY8dakqJ4

One important element of training is fun or imparts a sense of achievement.
I bet those airsoft guns can be a hoot!

Another element of training is that it NOT develop bad habits. Ingraining a habit from scratch is much easier than overcoming a bad habit. I will also wager that many of the airsoft crowd have developed skills that are effective or not critical for airsoft but are not appropriate for the 1911 or a proper 10mm.

What are the odds that you’ll be in a gunfight? A lot less than the odds that you’ll be in a steel plate competition. So which one is “real”?

 

[44 AMP]

Thanks for the replies, and, of course I thought I was being clear and concise, (don't we all, always??)

 

[zoo]

OP sounded to be quite the expert!

 

[LastStar75]

The person who made the original post has not responded to the two pages of comments to his post. He was either just trying to drive traffic to his YouTube page or really does not like people disagreeing with him.

When you Google videos(posted among the links) of a person with an Airsoft Glock or Air guns shooting better groups than most folk can on range with a AR-15(or PCC): Them you have people saying "I'm better throwing this gun towards" or barely connecting most hits at 25 yard with an actual pistol- Haven't you found anything suspicious of an platform with much less point of contact being very easy to shoot?

If actual powder-burning autoloading pistols can be so easily used to plink 50 yard targets- Then why most person can barely connect their shots at 30 yards with an pistol without stock and foregrip with limp-wristing recoil and 6lb trigger pull? Why Mr Gun Jesus was shooting worse groups with an M1 Carbine than folks with Air guns linked let alone a mouse gun?

Here are quotes from people who wasted their time practicing with Airsoft:

I need help and this is probably the best place to ask for it.



It's on the subject of shooting pistols. Now rifles I have down to an art, and with airsoft or HW45 air pistols, I'm fine. But put a real pistol in my hands and I struggle to hit a man sized target at 25m. I line up the sights correctly, keep the weapon in a decent hold, to the point where people have commented that when I fire, the weapon barely moved (understandable given my size) and the weapon always seems to return to the aim point, all of which would indicate a good shot from a rifle, yet when I go down to the target, it is annoyingly holeless! All the deviations from aimpoint tend to be completely random, at least once the unzeroed nature of the weapon is take into account. It's insane that I'm a better shot and can hit further targets with an airsoft GBB than a real pistol despite them both being the same design, and having lighter crispier triggers than my NBB BB and Crosman 1277!



I'm at the limits of mine. I can only assume its something about how I hold it that's doing it.

Basically I can take out a bullseye from 25 yards with my airsoft pistol. But once I go to the range and shoot my glock 43 I have a 5-8 inch grouping from 12 yards. Am I doing something wrong? I’m also shooting left

Repeated shots without actual recoil are of no benefit, and is in fact detrimental to reinforcing the physical control necessary to maintain accuracy in a realistic string of fire.

My conclusion is that any manipulation or physical skill which is easier to perform with an Airsoft or Air gun has ZERO training value. Whether it’s the trigger pull, the slide resistance, or the amount of recoil- "But Air guns is much more convenient and I can practice drills most ranges don't allow!" If you don't have access to ammo or range available them don't practice with Airsoft. Unless you’re extremely cognizant and dedicated in your practice the non-firearm will in fact induce bad habits that you will need to spend time and effort correcting on the firing line. They aren’t real and so I don’t treat them like they’re real — and that ruins the training value and precious time.

 

[JohnKSa]

When you Google videos(posted among the links) of a person with an Airsoft Glock or Air guns shooting better groups than most folk can on range with a AR-15(or PCC): Them you have people saying "I'm better throwing this gun towards" or barely connecting most hits at 25 yard with an actual pistol- Haven't you found anything suspicious of an platform with much less point of contact being very easy to shoot?

Did you actually watch those videos? You can see the pellets from the Glock going downrange sometimes and they're going all over the place, they aren't good groups at all, in fact, what I saw was that he was missing the entire target most of the time.

The second video didn't show any groups shot at all nor did it state at what distance he was shooting the reactive targets.

Not to put to fine a point on it, but if you're going to post videos to prove that people shoot much better groups with Airsoft of Airguns, you need to actually find videos that show people shooting groups with airsoft and Airguns, not just random videos of people shooting airguns and Airsoft. That's just a waste of everyone's time.

I did watch the one about the Swiss Arms CO2 pistol and it didn't seem to be shooting great groups. The one group he showed was about 6" at 11 yards or so. That's ok shooting, but it's possible to shoot much better groups than that with a firearm (or a more accurate air pistol) at those distances. Looks like he got maybe 10 hits on the 70yard target out of 3 magazines (54 shots). Again, not bad, but not amazing--certainly not evidence that people shoot way better with airguns than they do with firearms. I took a pistol class some years ago and everyone made hits on a bowling pin at 50 yards with centerfire pistols--two people actually hit it on the first shot.

As far as why some people might shoot airguns and Airsoft better than firearms.

My take is that people tend to have less issue with flinch when they shoot Airsoft/airguns but some people do flinch when shooting firearms.

Having shot a ton of ammo through a variety of airguns and firearms, I can tell you that the accuracy is pretty similar.

However, if a person has developed a flinch, or has trouble with flinching, they will tend to shoot firearms much more poorly than they will something like Airsoft of an airgun which has very little recoil and discharge noise and creates no flash/blast.

That doesn't mean that Airsoft has no training value, but it does mean that a person using Airsoft/airguns to train needs to understand the limitations of the system.

Basically I can take out a bullseye from 25 yards with my airsoft pistol.

I think that perhaps some hyperbole is present in this statement. You can watch Olympic airgun shooting--people using airguns that cost thousands of dollars, competing at world-class levels to get a feel for how well these amazing shooters can actually shoot airguns that are far more accurate than any airsoft. Then realize that all Olympic airgun competition is shot at 10m (33 feet).

I think it would be entertaining to watch someone who could really "take out a bullseye at 25 yards with an Airsoft" with any level of consistency but until I see it, I'm going to remain a bit skeptical.

If actual powder-burning autoloading pistols can be so easily used to plink 50 yard targets- Then why most person can barely connect their shots at 30 yards with an pistol without stock and foregrip with limp-wristing recoil and 6lb trigger pull? Why Mr Gun Jesus was shooting worse groups with an M1 Carbine than folks with Air guns linked let alone a mouse gun?

This is sort of a hodge-podge of "evidence". You've got different people shooting different guns at different ranges and for different purposes.

The airgun folks are shooting primarily for accuracy while the firearm videos are focusing on speed as a major concern. I don't care who is shooting, if accuracy (group size or hitting a small target) is their main concern, they will shoot better groups than when they are trying for speed in a timed competition.

You need to find some apples-to-apples comparisons, preferably by the same people, done at the same kinds of ranges and with the same goals in mind.