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Do AR's jam that much?
- Thread starter bjones870
- Start date
myshoulderissore
New member
The only time in thousands of rounds through M16s, M4s, and ARs, I have EVER had one malfunction on ME, was in Basic Training. Crappy magazine, I personally loaded it and knew the feed lips were loose. DS told me to shutup and shoot. Shot my first round, and as the bolt cycled, about 5 live rounds followed the spent casing out, then it double-fed when the bolt closed.
However, I have good practices when it comes to loading mags, checking mags, and operating the gun. I have seen them jam MANY times when morons shoot resting on the magazine, or mag pushed against a wall, etc. But that's user error.
However, I have good practices when it comes to loading mags, checking mags, and operating the gun. I have seen them jam MANY times when morons shoot resting on the magazine, or mag pushed against a wall, etc. But that's user error.
BlackJackID
New member
I will add another post to this thread, though its not likely to be read.
I myself had a very low opinion of the AR/M16 platform for many years. was this because I had combat experience? No. Was it because I had put thousands of rounds through an AR to make my own opinion? Again, No.
It is because, as a youngster of 14-18 years old, I was extremely interested in the Military and Firearms. I had joined the Marine Corps JROTC, and there I had the honor of being a pupil of our Sr. Marine Instructor, one Major Dick Culver, U.S.M.C. (retired). This is the Man I credit with having taught me more useful information about firearms and marksmanship than I could ever soak up on the internet. Any who would doubt his knowledge or experience just needs to do a google search.
Major Culver had a deep hatred for the M16 that stemmed from his vast personal combat experience with the Rifle, one where he saw its malfunctions result in the death of many Marines. (to read the Full story, google "Saga of the M-16", written in his own words)
It wasnt until many years later that I had enough of my own experience with the rifle to make my own judgement. I think its a fine rifle, one of the best. I have never carried it into combat (a severed achilles tendon in high school made the Marine corps beleive I would not be an effective combat soldier, no matter how many times I attempted to convince them), but I have shot thousands upon thousands of rounds through many variations. and I feel now, I have the experience necessary to draw my own conclusions.
In conclusion, Some of us, who do not have experience draw our opinions from those we respect, not always just internet drivel. In my case, my opinion, though outdated ,was drawn from a man who had more credability than any other person I will ever know. The AR platform has came a long ways since its inception, but if I had watched a man die with his cleaning rod down his barrel, I still wouldnt trust it either.
I myself had a very low opinion of the AR/M16 platform for many years. was this because I had combat experience? No. Was it because I had put thousands of rounds through an AR to make my own opinion? Again, No.
It is because, as a youngster of 14-18 years old, I was extremely interested in the Military and Firearms. I had joined the Marine Corps JROTC, and there I had the honor of being a pupil of our Sr. Marine Instructor, one Major Dick Culver, U.S.M.C. (retired). This is the Man I credit with having taught me more useful information about firearms and marksmanship than I could ever soak up on the internet. Any who would doubt his knowledge or experience just needs to do a google search.
Major Culver had a deep hatred for the M16 that stemmed from his vast personal combat experience with the Rifle, one where he saw its malfunctions result in the death of many Marines. (to read the Full story, google "Saga of the M-16", written in his own words)
It wasnt until many years later that I had enough of my own experience with the rifle to make my own judgement. I think its a fine rifle, one of the best. I have never carried it into combat (a severed achilles tendon in high school made the Marine corps beleive I would not be an effective combat soldier, no matter how many times I attempted to convince them), but I have shot thousands upon thousands of rounds through many variations. and I feel now, I have the experience necessary to draw my own conclusions.
In conclusion, Some of us, who do not have experience draw our opinions from those we respect, not always just internet drivel. In my case, my opinion, though outdated ,was drawn from a man who had more credability than any other person I will ever know. The AR platform has came a long ways since its inception, but if I had watched a man die with his cleaning rod down his barrel, I still wouldnt trust it either.
boostedtt91
New member
I personally believe that if you shoot Brass cased ammo you will rarely have jams unless there is something wrong with the gun or its completly gunked up. If you shoot steel cased ammo your gonna have alot more jams and problems. Best advice is to just stay away from steel cased ammo
RockyMtnTactical
New member
Not good quality AR15's. Also, good idea to keep it well lubed though.
The early years of the M16 had opponents who hated the weapon for all the wrong reasons - and some good ones. Things that needed corrected were.
The issue I have with anecdotal stories is that they are repeated by untrained non-service members. "Dying with a cleaning rod down the barrel" is a colorful picture, but not necessarily the best way to fix the problem. I said it before - it's a bandaid solution with the wrong piece of kit that only alleviates a symptom, not the cause.
Why was this combat veteran Ranger's gun disabled with a non-functioning round stuck in the chamber? ANY gun can get a cartridge jammed in it - but in most cases, you have to pound it in there to do it. How did that happen, especially in a unit - RANGER - that teaches combat prechecks of equipment that includes functioning?
The final conclusion of what happened to cause that is still being left out. What was the after action determination that discovered how a cartridge was jammed in chamber so tightly it couldn't be beaten out with a cleaning rod? And where is it suggested as a valid method? Using a multijointed rod with screw connectors on one end, and a open tube on the other?
These things aren't durable enough pushing patches down the bore, beating a stuck round out of the chamber with one isn't written up in the armorer's TM.
Either the round was severely deformed, or a foreign object was lodged in with it. Beating the projectile into the cartridge will only make things worse, and if the open tube end is used, it could split and jam itself between the rifling and ogive, which just ices the cake.
Instead of repeating it over and over, how about what should you do to 1) prevent it from happening, 2) Properly fix it?
You do your prechecks - clean ammo, properly loaded in good magazines, in secure pouches, and you shoot the gun before leaving the wire, watching it correctly function.
"I pulled the trigger and my gun jammed." No, it was already jammed, and apparently, having the firing pin strike the primer is either in question, or it was bad. AR's will not expose the firing pin sufficiently unless they are fully locked. If the extractor isn't snapped over the rim, which happens on the final turn of the bolt, do it again. Does the bolt carrier go ALL the way forward?
I hope those who understand the correct functioning of the AR can see that it's not a design defect, it's likely operator error or even negligence was involved. Bad ammo, magazines, and screwups cause most of the problems with all firearms, and the M16 is NOT immune to them. Neither are soldiers - we are just a cross section of humanity at large. Not anointed or inhumanly excepted from making mistakes. We just try to train and fight well enough the other guys army makes more, and defeats himself.
The issue I have with anecdotal stories is that they are repeated by untrained non-service members. "Dying with a cleaning rod down the barrel" is a colorful picture, but not necessarily the best way to fix the problem. I said it before - it's a bandaid solution with the wrong piece of kit that only alleviates a symptom, not the cause.
Why was this combat veteran Ranger's gun disabled with a non-functioning round stuck in the chamber? ANY gun can get a cartridge jammed in it - but in most cases, you have to pound it in there to do it. How did that happen, especially in a unit - RANGER - that teaches combat prechecks of equipment that includes functioning?
The final conclusion of what happened to cause that is still being left out. What was the after action determination that discovered how a cartridge was jammed in chamber so tightly it couldn't be beaten out with a cleaning rod? And where is it suggested as a valid method? Using a multijointed rod with screw connectors on one end, and a open tube on the other?
These things aren't durable enough pushing patches down the bore, beating a stuck round out of the chamber with one isn't written up in the armorer's TM.
Either the round was severely deformed, or a foreign object was lodged in with it. Beating the projectile into the cartridge will only make things worse, and if the open tube end is used, it could split and jam itself between the rifling and ogive, which just ices the cake.
Instead of repeating it over and over, how about what should you do to 1) prevent it from happening, 2) Properly fix it?
You do your prechecks - clean ammo, properly loaded in good magazines, in secure pouches, and you shoot the gun before leaving the wire, watching it correctly function.
"I pulled the trigger and my gun jammed." No, it was already jammed, and apparently, having the firing pin strike the primer is either in question, or it was bad. AR's will not expose the firing pin sufficiently unless they are fully locked. If the extractor isn't snapped over the rim, which happens on the final turn of the bolt, do it again. Does the bolt carrier go ALL the way forward?
I hope those who understand the correct functioning of the AR can see that it's not a design defect, it's likely operator error or even negligence was involved. Bad ammo, magazines, and screwups cause most of the problems with all firearms, and the M16 is NOT immune to them. Neither are soldiers - we are just a cross section of humanity at large. Not anointed or inhumanly excepted from making mistakes. We just try to train and fight well enough the other guys army makes more, and defeats himself.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Why was this combat veteran Ranger's gun disabled with a non-functioning round stuck in the chamber? ANY gun can get a cartridge jammed in it - but in most cases, you have to pound it in there to do it. How did that happen, especially in a unit - RANGER - that teaches combat prechecks of equipment that includes functioning?
If you'll search TFL on my name as the author and "Self" as the search word; you'll find a link to Capt. Self's platoon sergeant describing in an online post what the problem was.
The short version was that the rifles in question had a minimum of 80,000 rounds on them with minimal maintenance. The rods were not actually cleaning rods; but short sections of dowel rod that they had cut down and taped to their handguards because they were already aware of the issue from training. Basically, the training the Rangers were doing was wearing out the weapons faster than the Army was willing to replace them at that time (this was end of 1990s/early 2001 - kind of a different mindset in many ways).
Anyone can get a round stuck in any gun. I've had it happen.
When I finely desided to bite the bullet and go the AR route in High Power, I got a White Oak Upper Service Rifle.
To shoot 600 yards I went the 80 grn SMKs which as we know have to be loaded longer, and wont fit in the mag. No problem you single load at 600 anyway.
What happened was I loaded the rounds with an OAL to match the Sierra Reloading manual but didn't check them.
I started a string, fired the two sighters, no problem, fired the first round for record, a "9", no problem considering this was the first time I fired this rifle at 600. Got ready to shoot the second record shot, and caught a wind change. I decided to pull the round out (to keep it from warming up) and wait out the change.
The bullet stayed in the chamber, stuck in the rifliling. Being a M14/M1A shooter I never had to carry a cleaning rod to the line. (Nor have I ever had to use one on an AR/M16.
No one else had a rod on the line and my truck was parked on a parking lot between the 300 and 600 yard line.
No way could you blame this on the rifle. Like most problems along this line its Operator Headspace.
When I finely desided to bite the bullet and go the AR route in High Power, I got a White Oak Upper Service Rifle.
To shoot 600 yards I went the 80 grn SMKs which as we know have to be loaded longer, and wont fit in the mag. No problem you single load at 600 anyway.
What happened was I loaded the rounds with an OAL to match the Sierra Reloading manual but didn't check them.
I started a string, fired the two sighters, no problem, fired the first round for record, a "9", no problem considering this was the first time I fired this rifle at 600. Got ready to shoot the second record shot, and caught a wind change. I decided to pull the round out (to keep it from warming up) and wait out the change.
The bullet stayed in the chamber, stuck in the rifliling. Being a M14/M1A shooter I never had to carry a cleaning rod to the line. (Nor have I ever had to use one on an AR/M16.
No one else had a rod on the line and my truck was parked on a parking lot between the 300 and 600 yard line.
No way could you blame this on the rifle. Like most problems along this line its Operator Headspace.
BlackJackID
New member
Tirod,
I agree with you on many, if not all points. The AR15 is a great weapon design, that still suffers from the defects when it was first put into action. And those defects were not design flaws, but the result of hurriedly pushing a rifle to the front line without proper logistics, as well as the brass making the decision to load the round with a propellant not recomended by the weapons designer.
Arguably, the worst "improvement" to the design was the forward assist. Yes, when the weapon gets too dirty this allows you to close the bolt completely, however, I have never seen any other firearm that recommends that you beat the bolt closed if it doesnt want to lock into battery. This design feature also allows the bolt to be forced into battery if, say, a round had sand clingling to it. Which could obviously cause an extraction issue.
The problem is, any time your life depends on a weapon, and it malfunctions, operator error or not, it will destroy your faith in the weapon. We can sit back and pick at what should or should not have happened. Regardless, I dont think the men who died cared what the cause of the malfunction was, or if the armoror would approve of them beating brass out of the chamber with a cleaning rod. Nor do I think the few incidents of the rifle malfunctioning are a testament to its reliability.
With as many of these weapons that are in the theatre, and with how many times they are used in firefights, there are bound to be malfunctions of some sort at some point, with any weapon system.
I agree with you on many, if not all points. The AR15 is a great weapon design, that still suffers from the defects when it was first put into action. And those defects were not design flaws, but the result of hurriedly pushing a rifle to the front line without proper logistics, as well as the brass making the decision to load the round with a propellant not recomended by the weapons designer.
Arguably, the worst "improvement" to the design was the forward assist. Yes, when the weapon gets too dirty this allows you to close the bolt completely, however, I have never seen any other firearm that recommends that you beat the bolt closed if it doesnt want to lock into battery. This design feature also allows the bolt to be forced into battery if, say, a round had sand clingling to it. Which could obviously cause an extraction issue.
The problem is, any time your life depends on a weapon, and it malfunctions, operator error or not, it will destroy your faith in the weapon. We can sit back and pick at what should or should not have happened. Regardless, I dont think the men who died cared what the cause of the malfunction was, or if the armoror would approve of them beating brass out of the chamber with a cleaning rod. Nor do I think the few incidents of the rifle malfunctioning are a testament to its reliability.
With as many of these weapons that are in the theatre, and with how many times they are used in firefights, there are bound to be malfunctions of some sort at some point, with any weapon system.
Stevie-Ray
New member
Never had a failure with mine and that's with at least 3 different kinds of mags. Colt.
My DMPS Lite-16 will feed any brass-cased ammunition fine, but jams steel case Wolf ammo every time (whether it's clean or dirty). It's not as big an issues as it once was because low cost brass .223 is available and I can reload higher grade ammunition if needed. Reading the forum, other similar or better AR-15s seem to handle steel case fine so it is either the luck of draw or the willingness to pay for chamber polishing.
On the other side of that coin as a Senior NCO I have been to some units that did not believe in doing any cleaning they just came back from the range and threw them in the vault for months and years.
Most of the time I didnt even have to inspect weapons. I would watch while they were cleaning the weapons. In 15 minutes you could give the armorer a list of who was goofing off and not following the procedures in the Operators Manual so they could get a little addtional time cleaning that weapon.
I had to educate a few inspectors that the proper procedure for inpecting a weapon included wiping off the CLP and running a patch through the bore before performiong an inspection.
Back in the mid ninetes dry cleaning fluid was only recommended when you switched from one lubricant to another. You had CLP and LAW (Artic Weapons Lube). If you are using CLP never ever use dry cleaning fluid as it defeats the purpose of lubing the weapon per the TM after you have finished lubing it.
Most of the time I didnt even have to inspect weapons. I would watch while they were cleaning the weapons. In 15 minutes you could give the armorer a list of who was goofing off and not following the procedures in the Operators Manual so they could get a little addtional time cleaning that weapon.
I had to educate a few inspectors that the proper procedure for inpecting a weapon included wiping off the CLP and running a patch through the bore before performiong an inspection.
Back in the mid ninetes dry cleaning fluid was only recommended when you switched from one lubricant to another. You had CLP and LAW (Artic Weapons Lube). If you are using CLP never ever use dry cleaning fluid as it defeats the purpose of lubing the weapon per the TM after you have finished lubing it.
"""The short version was that the rifles in question had a minimum of 80,000 rounds on them with minimal maintenance. The rods were not actually cleaning rods; but short sections of dowel rod that they had cut down and taped to their handguards because they were already aware of the issue from training. Basically, the training the Rangers were doing was wearing out the weapons faster than the Army was willing to replace them at that time (this was end of 1990s/early 2001 - kind of a different mindset in many ways). """
Any Officer or NCO who let Men go into Combat with Rifles that had 80,000 rounds on them should have been through a Court Martial.
This might explain the Battle of Takur Ghar in 2002 but does not explain the Battle of Wanat in 2009.
On September 10th 2001 the day before 9/11, Don Rumsfeld stated "2.3 TRILLION DOLLARS WAS MISSING FROM THE DoD and could not be found."
We can do better than that Men.
For those behind the wire or on vehicle patrol cleaning a rifle is not so problematic, for the grunt in the field carrying everything on his back it is a little more difficult. Days are spent on search and destroy missions, patrols, OP's, observation posts and day ambushes and digging in with full size shovels and picks and axes full size bunkers with over head cover, sandbags and logs. Nights are spent on perimeter duty or guard duty in the bunker on your shift on the night defensive position if you are one of the lucky ones, otherwise you are out on night ambushes, squad or platoon size or on three man LP'S listening posts keying the mike or breaking squelch every hour. As you cannot clean a rifle on any of these missions which last 24/7 the only time to clean your rifle is for the guys who were inside the perimeter of the night defensive position or logger site, you did not want everyone cleaning their rifle at the same time anyway and you might be cleaning it with the end of daylight or in the dark. That being said I only had my M16A1 with foward assist and bird cage flash suppressor jam once in a rear area on target practice after a year in Nam in the field and many firefights, longest firefight lasted four hours, but if that jam had happened during a firefight resulting in me or one or some of my buddies getting killed or wounded I would have a different opinion of the M16.
Granted if you have Men firing on both sides and in front and in back of you and are not being overrun, you have time to clear a jam, and if you have the most effective weapon of all, the radio, and call in a Fire Mission for artillery or air support and have air superiority and firepower superiority over the enemy your rifle platform will be backed up.
Any Officer or NCO who let Men go into Combat with Rifles that had 80,000 rounds on them should have been through a Court Martial.
This might explain the Battle of Takur Ghar in 2002 but does not explain the Battle of Wanat in 2009.
On September 10th 2001 the day before 9/11, Don Rumsfeld stated "2.3 TRILLION DOLLARS WAS MISSING FROM THE DoD and could not be found."
We can do better than that Men.
For those behind the wire or on vehicle patrol cleaning a rifle is not so problematic, for the grunt in the field carrying everything on his back it is a little more difficult. Days are spent on search and destroy missions, patrols, OP's, observation posts and day ambushes and digging in with full size shovels and picks and axes full size bunkers with over head cover, sandbags and logs. Nights are spent on perimeter duty or guard duty in the bunker on your shift on the night defensive position if you are one of the lucky ones, otherwise you are out on night ambushes, squad or platoon size or on three man LP'S listening posts keying the mike or breaking squelch every hour. As you cannot clean a rifle on any of these missions which last 24/7 the only time to clean your rifle is for the guys who were inside the perimeter of the night defensive position or logger site, you did not want everyone cleaning their rifle at the same time anyway and you might be cleaning it with the end of daylight or in the dark. That being said I only had my M16A1 with foward assist and bird cage flash suppressor jam once in a rear area on target practice after a year in Nam in the field and many firefights, longest firefight lasted four hours, but if that jam had happened during a firefight resulting in me or one or some of my buddies getting killed or wounded I would have a different opinion of the M16.
Granted if you have Men firing on both sides and in front and in back of you and are not being overrun, you have time to clear a jam, and if you have the most effective weapon of all, the radio, and call in a Fire Mission for artillery or air support and have air superiority and firepower superiority over the enemy your rifle platform will be backed up.
Sinlessorrow
New member
Ill say this. I have not read through this whole thread but in general the stoner design gets alot of flak because it puts the gasses into the gun.
This makes people want to say its a horrible system but its not.
I have multiple ar-15's my favorite a 10.5" that said a good quality built rifle will usually hit around 2000 rounds bone dry before choking.
The key to a good runnig ar is good parts and most importantly....LUBRICATION. i am at 7890 M855 rounds right now since my last cleaning and my 10.5" is still chugging along, all i do is spray some CLP onthe bolt carrier every 500 rounds and im good to go.
The people who spout out about the M4 cant go 200 rounds blah blah blah have never shot one and are going solely on media coverage and HK promotional videos.
Go check out filthy 14 from bcm, 14k rounds without a cleaning
This makes people want to say its a horrible system but its not.
I have multiple ar-15's my favorite a 10.5" that said a good quality built rifle will usually hit around 2000 rounds bone dry before choking.
The key to a good runnig ar is good parts and most importantly....LUBRICATION. i am at 7890 M855 rounds right now since my last cleaning and my 10.5" is still chugging along, all i do is spray some CLP onthe bolt carrier every 500 rounds and im good to go.
The people who spout out about the M4 cant go 200 rounds blah blah blah have never shot one and are going solely on media coverage and HK promotional videos.
Go check out filthy 14 from bcm, 14k rounds without a cleaning
tahunua001
New member
if my DPMS sportical(probably the lowest of the low as far as factory ARs go) can go 500 rounds without a single malfunction then a colt, DD, armalite and bushmaster can definitely..all of the guys that you see bashing the AR15 are guys that site the vietnam era M16s poor performance as proof that the AK47 is a better gun...the AR15 has been updated again and again and is not even close to the first m16s that rolled into vietnam. if someone claims they cant get through a single mag without a failure then they need to spend more than $100 on a gun, shoot less than 5000 rounds before cleaning and use lube more often than not.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
This might explain the Battle of Takur Ghar in 2002 but does not explain the Battle of Wanat in 2009.
Wanat occurred in 2008. The story in 2009 was about COP Keating, where they had a similar do-or-die fight. An AP reporter who had read a draft history of Wanat irresponsibly speculated that the M4 failed at Keating as well. As it turned out, nothing like that happened at Keating.
And we had a long discussion of Wanat here if you want to read it. There is nothing to explain about it. A general issue infantry rifle isn't a light machinegun and if you use it in that role, you'll burn it up. Having already lost almost every single crew-served weapon and burned up two SAWs, the guys at Wanat didn't have much choice though in their 40 vs. 200-300 fight.