DIY Electrical Annealing Of Rifle Cases

I swipe photo eyes out of printers, there is usually between 2 & 4 in the multi-purpose printers.
I use one on rifle case feeder, just off set from center.
Lets me know when a case snuck in upside down.
Since most are housed in a 'C' shape set, makes them easy to work with.

Proximity sensors don't like being too close to the coil, so photo is the way to go.
Magnetic field messes with magnetic proximity sensors.
The proximity sensors I use up high on case feeders and such hate being down by the coil.

There isn't much colabration on Internet forums, if there were, with the wide range of specialities this bunch has we could whip up something that would be specifically reloader, instead of having to make due with trying to get things modified to work.
 
jeephammer said:
You might also look into a ferrite 'C' core to 'focus' the smaller output unit.
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This ^^^ would make a big difference. 150W delivered is enough power, but the problem is getting enough of the magnetic lines of force actually intercepted by the brass to get that delivery. Given how thin the brass is, that is difficult. A shaped coil following the brass contour close to the surface would increase it, but since I haven't tried this and am operating on theory, for the existing commercial kit formats we need to rely on Jeephammer's experience with them, which makes it sound like even 5% (0.05 coupling coefficient) is difficult to achieve with the standard air core coils in the kits. A C-core coil will have losses, but not nearly as high as the air core coil because the magnetic lines of force are concentrated in the gap between the core poles.

By the way, the load from heating the case is in addition to radiation loses (small) and I²R losses in the circuitry. If you put a wattmeter on the device, you should see that input power increase by the amount of power delivered to the case when you insert it plus efficiency losses. But it will give you some idea what you are actually putting into the brass.

Another thing you could try is suspending a sub-caliber piece of ferrite rod in the center of the case mouth. Say, a threaded core out of an abandoned small radio coil. Like the C-core, this will increase inductance so you will tune the frequency downward a bit, but if the coil is substantially wider than the case that won't be a big percent change and it may just increase the number of lines of force passing through the brass enough to be useful, if it doesn't saturate too easily. You'd have to try it.
 
JeepHammer said:
I swipe photo eyes out of printers, there is usually between 2 & 4 in the multi-purpose printers.
I use one on rifle case feeder, just off set from center.
Lets me know when a case snuck in upside down.
Since most are housed in a 'C' shape set, makes them easy to work with.

Proximity sensors don't like being too close to the coil, so photo is the way to go.
Magnetic field messes with magnetic proximity sensors.
The proximity sensors I use up high on case feeders and such hate being down by the coil.

There isn't much colabration on Internet forums, if there were, with the wide range of specialities this bunch has we could whip up something that would be specifically reloader, instead of having to make due with trying to get things modified to work.
Click to expand...
Luckily I work in the copier industry, so I know exactly what you're talking about.

Would it be feasible to make a free fall annealer? The coil would have to be pretty high powered to heat the neck to the right temp that fast, but also not too much heat, but also will need perfect timing to not anneal the whole case. Maybe I'm in over complicating things.

I do like the idea of having a photo sensor off center to detect an upside down case.
 
If I understand what you mean by drop-through, you want to anneal the neck and shoulder (you never anneal the head; it has to stay hard to contain pressure properly) while the case is falling into the coil. If it starts out mouth-down and falls half an inch to get the neck and shoulder inside the coil, that takes about 0.05 seconds, at which point the power comes on. It would then fall, say, another 0.2 inches while the power is applied, at which point the power turns off. Given the starting velocity from having fallen half an inch and the added acceleration during the next 0.2 inches, this will mean applying the power for 9 milliseconds and then letting the rest of the case fall through without power. 150 joules in 0.009s would require delivered energy of 16.667 kW. If the unit has to be 20 times bigger than the delivered power, as seems to be the case for air cores, you'd need a 333 kW machine.

On the other hand, if by drop-through you mean positioning the brass, holding it in the coil, and then having a solenoid drop it through the coil, you still have to have a moving coil that raises to go around the brass, then lowers so the neck case can come into position. The C-core just requires that the neck and shoulder be positioned between the ends of the C, which could be done on a pass-through, and then the case falls off the end of the machine. So basically, you can take any of the annealing machines you see operating with a flame source and substitute positioning between the ends of the C for applying a flame. That is what is being done with the Giraud annealer in this video. Normally the Giraud sells with a torch that hits the case necks, but in that video it is rigged with a C-core Fluxeon induction heater. There are pictures of it with both the torch (top) and the Fluxeon unit on this page.

You may want to look at the Fluxeon unit alone. It's 1200W, and as the photo from Giraud shows, will get a .308 case to temperature in about 1.5s with the C-core.
 
Do you have a video link? The only case forming production I have seen used open flames for annealing.
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Pan of water, propane torch. It has worked for years, and it still works today.
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Many years ago I built a case annealer, All I have invested is a little time. It reminds me of the ole retired man that was asked to help get the electricity back on. He charge the electrical company a ton of money; needless to they were not happy. They wanted to know why he charged so much money for simply lightly tapping on a junction with a small hammer. They did not think he worked hard enough for the large amount he charged.

He explained to them he did not charge for tapping on the junction, he said he charged them a lot of money for knowing where to tap:)

F. Guffey
 
Unclenick said:
If I understand what you mean by drop-through, you want to anneal the neck and shoulder (you never anneal the head; it has to stay hard to contain pressure properly) while the case is falling into the coil. If it starts out mouth-down and falls half an inch to get the neck and shoulder inside the coil, that takes about 0.05 seconds, at which point the power comes on. It would then fall, say, another 0.2 inches while the power is applied, at which point the power turns off. Given the starting velocity from having fallen half an inch and the added acceleration during the next 0.2 inches, this will mean applying the power for 9 milliseconds and then letting the rest of the case fall through without power. 150 joules in 0.009s would require delivered energy of 16.667 kW. If the unit has to be 20 times bigger than the delivered power, as seems to be the case for air cores, you'd need a 333 kW machine.
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That's what I meant by drop through. And I figured it wouldn't be feasible, for the home annealer anyway.

My power bill would be insane with that set up lol...

Looks like I have a new toy to build for my man cave! The next issue is what lp's to play while I'm building it!
 
Again, I made an annealing machine, the first thing I did was think about it. And then I decided there were factors and rules. One rule was about heating the case head; don't do it.

And then there is that thing about knowing where to tap.

F. Guffey
 
Nhyrum,
My use is to place an optical off center in the feeder tube, right at the case neck in the stack.
Since the tubes run at a slight angle, the necks fall back and clear the sensor, an upside down case doesn't.
Throw about a one second delay timer on it and it will shut annealing or machine drive down so I don't anneal the case head or jam the press.

Flipped rifle cases are rare, but stuff happens...

As for annealing, this really isn't an issue,
The first production annealed I built dropped the case in the coil, landed on a platform that only annealed the neck/shoulder.

The entire process took about 2 seconds,
Case dropped, photo eye detected it & started timer,
Case timed out and platform dropped case,
Another case dropped onto platform and process started again.

This was with a continuous charged coil that is cooled.
The induction unit I built didn't like cycling, never quite figured out why, not an electrical engineer.

Since Instarted posting about this, people have sent me pictures of former flame annealing rigs converted to electrical, most using ferrite core to focus the magnetic field.

Since I started posting about ferrite cores & cooling, the people that build the 'Annie' have gone to silicon carbide semi-conductors, ferrite 'C' cores & coil cooling...
Probably coincidence, don't you think?

http://www.fluxeon.com/Annie.html
 
The biggest issue with annealing brass is, its a GREAT conductor of electricity, and virtually non-magnetic.
While aluminum is non-magnetic, it's not so good at conducting electricity, so soldering or brazing aluminum is MUCH easier, even though brass & aluminum have similar characteristics.
Most of the common units were intended for soldering/brazing and that's what we get to work with...

An open 'O' or 'C' ferrite kicks these lower powered annealed up about 6 notches, and ferrite is cheap & easy to work with, just don't kink the tubing when winding!
(Freezing water in the tube before you wind is a sneaky shortcut)
 
I will take any help, any parts sources, etc.

Mr. Guffy, zero help.
If you are trying to get a point made, or help with things, I missed it.

Unclenik, you are making sense, just over my head.

This little annealer has the right idea, the drop, in my *Opinion* should have been built sideways instead of forward/backward.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EGfGV8xrfak

Turned sideways the solenoid or motor could drop a case into the annealed when it returned to catch the next case.
Add a case feeder and do a case every few seconds without hand feeding.
It worked for me.
 
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This guy is using a 1,200 watt 'Annie',
Less than 1.5 seconds,
And for the guys that go on and on endlessly about overheating the case head,

Notice what he's using to hold the brass...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=axM177JrIBo

Less than 1.5 seconds with 1,200 watts,
I'm running 2,500 watts, so at what point are these people convinced I'm over cooking the case?

The other point is, factory civilian cases at the head are Rockwell B scale somewhere between 70 to 78.
'Half Hard' cartridge brass is about 95, which coincidently most cases that crack are between 95 & 105.

70-75 is Dead Soft for cartridge brass, low brass is 'Dead Soft' between 55-65.

Now, someone with a Rockwell machine PLEASE run a few new, a few split and post results so this doesn't keep cropping up!
 
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This shows why I use a relay between power supply and induction unit.
It shows why, but this guy's explanation is incorrect.

This also shows what happens when you run low current through the induction unit, just doesn't get with it...
Volts 30 x Amps 3 = Watts 90

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rOYzel8M6eE

Now, notice this is the same induction unit, the cheap China units, watch how long this takes to cook a screwdriver with a 1,000 watt power supply.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1wwlbN-9jsU


Why are these idiots always cooking tools?...
 
Mr. Guffy, zero help.
If you are trying to get a point made, or help with things, I missed it.
Click to expand...

I knew you would miss the point when I posted and that is OK.

And then there is the thing with 2,500 watts:eek: that has got be in the neighborhood of 22 + a few amps, I have a carbon torch that is variable that does not consume that much electricity on maximum and it takes no time to puddle metal. I can wave it over a steak, the difference between very rare and burnt is 1 second:rolleyes:;).

F. Guffey
 
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I do not need more welding equipment but I have two Dynos that were destined to be welders. And now? I am not feeling guilty but these Dynos have got to be rare. The last one I saw was in a B29, seems a crew full of drama was attempting to recover a B29 that made a bad landing in Canada/Alaska? For reasons beyond my understanding they placed a generator in the fuselage to powder up a radio. The Radio was a SCR506, when they took off they hit a bump and turned the generator over causing a fire and there the proud old plane remains today. And then there is that other problem, I am having trouble remembering how to wire the Dyno and can not remember where the directions are.

F. Guffey
 
WAY off topic,
I have to assume you are talking about a Dynamo type DC generator,
Not a Dynamometer, the normal useage of Dyno.

Dynamo (and magneto) type generators use a commutator to rectify output to DC, WWII era were often positive 'Ground'

Since that would be a perminant magnet type unit, and the magnets degrade in close proximity to each other over time, since the ductile iron cores used for 'perminant magnets' were anything but perminant,
I would start with re-magnitizing the magnets, and I would give commutator a close inspection, replace brushes if available, and replace brush springs.

Just because a bottle cap will stick to the magnet doesn't mean the magnetic field is strong enough to induce proper current output.

Like any armature/commutator arrangement, you can check each winding for continuity, or if a 'Growler' is handy that would be the way to go.

I've got all the gear to do this, including winding machines in the event the armature needs rewound, I've been rebuilding generators, magnetos, alternators & starters since I was 14, magnetos were my first business, and this stuff is still an income source for me.
You would be amazed how many antique dynamos there are out there, from old crank telephones to tractors to aircraft...
 
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Back to the topic at hand, what Mr. Guffy missed, with 2,500 watts, I'm trying to build a conveyor type production annealing machine.
A self feeding (case feeder) would be fine for 1k at a time,
I've got more than that to do shortly...

I am more than willing to collaborate on a smaller rig, 1 at a time to case feeder unit.
 
And Mr. Guffey missed the point, the power time is very short (my brother has it at 1.5 seconds per case) , its not 1500 or 2500 watts continuously.

To put that in perspective, many engine block heaters are 750 to 1500 watts.

they run continuously for 2 to 3 hours (depending on temperature) and the research has shown it is more economical (as well as less pollution) to have your vehicles engine heated up when you start it under 20 degrees.

Or, how many people have 10 x 100 watt lights running in their house for 5 or 6 hours a day? electric stove? electric dryer? Can you say spin the wheel?

Mr: Guffy- It was Greenland they tried to recover the B-29 at and burned it up. Fly by night operation and they should have been shot for what they did.
 
JeepH:

Have you considered putting kits together and selling together?

My downfall is not assembly its getting the bits and pieces, board to mount it on etc. and having it all thought through.

At the end of the day let alone week my brain hurts from dealing with all that stuff they did to us at work.

If I had the time I would do it, a Heath kit setup would be great.

I would be first in line (assume price for parts, your time (profit to you) and design and getting it all together r can be say $100 to 150 and that's just ball park)

Ease of use bench mark would be the Annie.
 
Two things come to mind right away,
1. Once you 'Standardize' you have to have parts made at full price.
That drives the price WAY up.
Then you have to think about product liability insurance, etc.

2. Idiot Proofing.
A TON of potential for disaster.
You have seen the arguments on here over something as simple as a case gauge, can you imagine how bad this could be screwed up?

For $500 the 'Annie' is a pretty good deal.

I'm trying to work something out for the guys that can plug in a surplus power supply without electrocuting themselves or burning the house down,
Then running two wires to the induction unit, and maybe wrapping a copper conductor around a ferrite core without screwing it up...

Some guys will electrocute themselves changing flashlight batteries,
Some guys can't figure out the difference between head space sizing and case length.

Some can use the information to make better brass, some won't, some will declare the entire thing unnecessary, it's up to them.
 
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