Dissent in Time of War

[Rebar]

Ann Coulter, as usual, has interesting things to say on the topic:

What are we to make of the fact that — as we now know — the Democrats don't even want to withdraw troops from Iraq? By their own account, there is no merit to their demands. Before the vote, Democrats could at least defend themselves from sedition by pleading stupidity. Now we know they don't believe what they are saying about the war. (Thanks to that vote, the Islamo-fascists know it, too.)

The Democrats are giving aid and comfort to the enemy for no purpose other than giving aid and comfort to the enemy. There is no plausible explanation for the Democrats' behavior other than that they long to see U.S. troops shot, humiliated, and driven from the field of battle.

They fill the airwaves with treason, but when called to vote on withdrawing troops, disavow their own public statements. These people are not only traitors, they are gutless traitors.

http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/welcome.cgi

"gutless traitors", indeed. What is astounding to me, is that the democrats really believe that the American people will reward them with their votes, after they've been doing their level best to make us lose this war.

 

[GoSlash27]

What's astounding to me is that anybody would take Ann Coulter's moonbat rantings seriously.

 

[Rebar]

What's astounding to me is that anybody would take Ann Coulter's moonbat rantings seriously.

What's not astounding to me, is that you ignore the perfectly valid points made by her.

 

[GoSlash27]

What 'perfectly valid points'??
That liberals simply hate America? That they wish to see the blood of Americans soaking the delta? That they are providing aid and comfort to the enemy for no reason whatsoever beyond their rabid hatred of America?
That they are all collectively guilty of Sedition and treason?
That they just want to see Americans shot?

Which of these points in your opinion is valid?

 

[noone]

mow: first off this is WAY off topic.

second, if you actually read the posts that you quoted, you see me saying that people LABEL me a liberal, because my views are usually with the dems.

again you can label me how you want. I will more then likely vote dem. in most of the upcoming elections(no matter how much that is a bad option) until a decent 3rd party candidate gets on the ballot. I just cant see a repub being on the ticket that is worth voting for. macain is the only one even close, but he is too much of a lap dog for bush it seems sometimes.

as for ann colter, wow just wow. I cant enough at that, you just lost all credibility with most Im sure.

 

[Rebar]

Which of these points in your opinion is valid?

The point that all the democrats voted for the war, and now are pretending like the vote didn't happen

The point that they were calling for withdrawal, but when they had to actually vote on it, they voted the other way.

The point that we're winning the war, but they are constantly stating that we're losing.

The point that our enemy is encouraged by their double speak.

The point that they're trying to distort the war for political gain, which is directly leading to American soldiers being killed.

The point that they want us to withdraw and lose the war, just so they can relive the liberal/left high water mark after they lost us the Vietnam war.

There are plenty of points made, that show what's really going on.

 

[noone]

/quote/ The point that all the democrats voted for the war, and now are pretending like the vote didn't happen

The point that they were calling for withdrawal, but when they had to actually vote on it, they voted the other way. /end quote/

rebar: these points are valid. although voting for war with misleading intelligence kinda kills that point. I remember watching colin powell speak to the UN. he talked about all these roving chem. weapon labs all over the country making anthrax and nukes, and bla bla bla. I remember thinking "wholly crap Iraq has all that stuff?" huh, thats bad they probably shouldnt have all those weapons. oh wait they didnt. The second point is some buls@#$.

the rest of your post is pointless. You are claiming that people want our soilders dead! what is wrong with you? You are just making false claims that come from the far far right where all the nutjobs hang out. No one believes that stuff so drop it finally.

I really like the one where you say that liberals lost the vietnam war. that one is good. enough of this.

 

[GoSlash27]

Actually MoW,
I think Coulter is a fascinating study in freedom of speech and dissent in time of war, which is what this thread is all about.
I challenge anybody to find someone on the left who has hurled more invective, insult, and bile at our American servicemen and women than Coulter herself.
Check out the fundamental self-confliction presented above:
-John Murtha, a decorated combat veteran, is disparaged as a traitor by this woman (who's closest exposure to combat is dodging a pie) because his position is supposedly against our troops.
-The liberals apparently want to see American troops shot and killed. So much so that they want to bring 'em home.

I support her freedom to say stuff like this. I look forward to her appearances on the television because she's so disturbing as to be amusing in a black-comedy sorta way. When she opens her mouth, Americans all over the country scratch their heads and wonder...is that really how the right thinks??

 

[Big Ruger]

GS, They dont want to bring them home that was the point of the vote. None of them voted to do so. As usual The dems want to use the issue as a political football. They dont want a solution to this problem anymore than they want a solution to the supposed gun issue, or medicare, or social securty. See if the problems get solved, well we wont need those brave and selfless socialists in the govt to wipe our hind ends for us any more. You can pick your issue they play em all the same way. E.

 

[GoSlash27]

The point that all the democrats voted for the war, and now are pretending like the vote didn't happen

They claim that they were misled. Rebuttal?

The point that they were calling for withdrawal, but when they had to actually vote on it, they voted the other way.

They weren't allowed to vote on their own proposal.

The point that we're winning the war, but they are constantly stating that we're losing.

You only assume that we're winning.

The point that our enemy is encouraged by their double speak.

As if they were ever demoralized.

The point that they're trying to distort the war for political gain, which is directly leading to American soldiers being killed.

No, American soldiers are dying because insurgents are blowing up their humvees with IEDs. There is no connection between the political discourse in Washington and the combat on the ground in Iraq.

The point that they want us to withdraw and lose the war, just so they can relive the liberal/left high water mark after they lost us the Vietnam war.

The Vietnam war gutted the left's credibility on war. Now it's the right's turn.
The similarities between W and LBJ are absolutely striking.

There are plenty of points made, that show what's really going on.

Yeah...but only if you ignore reality and desperately want to believe the kool-aid she's sellin'. I think she turns more people off than she convinces.

 

[GoSlash27]

Ruger,
They did not get to vote on the plan they had proposed. This would be like placing a proposal before the NRA saying that all toddlers will be issued a loaded firearm and then when they oppose it, claiming that the NRA is anti-2nd Amendment.
The left most assuredly does want to give Iraq up as a bad job and bring our troops home. I have already stated plainly that I disagree.
But don't hand me that load about how they voted against their own proposal because I know better.

 

[Rebar]

I challenge anybody to find someone on the left who has hurled more invective, insult, and bile at our American servicemen and women than Coulter herself.

Umm... did the whole 12 year liberal/left misinformation campaign about Bush's Air National Guard service escape your attention? Guess so.

They claim that they were misled. Rebuttal?

They got the same intel as the president did. They came to the same conclusions as he did. How is that being "mislead"?

They weren't allowed to vote on their own proposal.

Bull. Murtha called for immediate withdrawal (which has been getting 24/7 rotation of Al-Jezzera btw). The vote was for immediate withdrawal. They voted on what they proposed, plain and simple.

You only assume that we're winning.

Every report from people who are there, state that's the case. That the terrorists are reduced to murdering civilians and sending top leaders on suicide missions, are all clear signs of desperation.

As if they were ever demoralized.

The ones who were sitting on the fence wether to go to Iraq or not, can only be encouraged by the "cut-and-run" signals put out by the democrats.

There is no connection between the political discourse in Washington and the combat on the ground in Iraq.

100% incorrect. These people have TV and Al-Jezzera. When they see people like Murtha and Sheehan and the others tearing at Bush and our policys in Iraq, they are encouraged to go to Iraq to fight. More terrorists leads to more US casualties, as well as innocent Iraqi civilian deaths.

The Vietnam war gutted the left's credibility on war.

It also lead to 38 years of democratic majority rule, major influxes of left-wing ideology into public schools and universities, and a left-leaning MSM. All the things the liberal/left wants back.

I think she turns more people off than she convinces.

And I disagree. She uses the same polemic style that the left uses against the right, except in a fun satirical way.

 

[noone]

rebar:

/quote/ Umm... did the whole 12 year liberal/left misinformation campaign about Bush's Air National Guard service escape your attention? Guess so. /endquote/
12 year? show me real proof its not true. do you really want to talk about misinformation in politics? repubs are pro's.

/quopte/ They got the same intel as the president did. They came to the same conclusions as he did. How is that being "mislead"? /endquote/
uhm with false intelligence.

/endquote/ Every report from people who are there, state that's the case. That the terrorists are reduced to murdering civilians and sending top leaders on suicide missions, are all clear signs of desperation. /endquote/
oh the people who's careers are on the line? ill need more proof than what comes out of the white house.

ah thats enough, my opinion is that we need dissent in time of war. otherwise we will just vote in more warmongers and this crap will keep going on. people will keep saying the same old "they want our troops dead" when someone else is sending them needlessly to war.

 

[Rebar]

12 year? show me real proof its not true.

Do a search, I've already addressed that myth in detail here.

oh the people who's careers are on the line? ill need more proof than what comes out of the white house.

That's what the soldiers and marines are saying, or are you calling them liars?

my opinion is that we need dissent in time of war.

When it was time for dissent, before the troops left, the democrats had already voted for the use of force.

Imagine if this kind of nonsense went on during WWII, with a media that exaggerated our losses, a political party that took every opportunity to use setbacks for political advantage, and a "death watch" on every casualty taken to undercut the war effort.

 

[noone]

ok let me tell you how i feel so that you are trying to put words in my mouth anymore.

do soldiers and marines usually make statements from the white house? ok so I wasnt talking about them, nor have I ever called them liars.

we have been over the fact that the war was voted on with bad intelligence many many times have we not?

I do not think our losses are exaggerated, I think every one of them is a terrible lose for this country.

does that clear it up? please stop trying to read things from my posts that are not there.

 

[Rebar]

do soldiers and marines usually make statements from the white house?

And who brought up the "white house" in the first place? It wasn't me, sir.

I do not think our losses are exaggerated, I think every one of them is a terrible lose for this country.

In war there are casualties, and each is indeed a loss to the country. However, put in a historical context, our losses are remarkably light. 2000 men in a day was unremarkable during WWII, and we lost a lot more then that in the first 15 minutes of the D-Day invastion.

 

[gc70]

we have been over the fact that the war was voted on with bad intelligence many many times have we not?

I have heard Democrats in Congress say that Bush misled them. The Democrats complain that they relied on Bush's statements when they voted for war.

I have also read that the raw intelligence documents were given to Congress. Were the Democrats so cavalier in voting for war that they did not take the time and make the effort to even read the intelligence documents that they had been given? It would appear so.

Did Bush mislead Congress? Yes, he probably did if Congressional due diligence was a bad as has been reported. But what does that say about ALL of our government leadership?

 

[noone]

rebar:

And who brought up the "white house" in the first place? It wasn't me, sir.

uh.......I said:

oh the people who's careers are on the line? ill need more proof than what comes out of the white house.

you said:

That's what the soldiers and marines are saying, or are you calling them liars

I said:

do soldiers and marines usually make statements from the white house? ok so I wasnt talking about them, nor have I ever called them liars.

does that clear it up?

In war there are casualties, and each is indeed a loss to the country. However, put in a historical context, our losses are remarkably light. 2000 men in a day was unremarkable during WWII, and we lost a lot more then that in the first 15 minutes of the D-Day invastion.

uh I know this, and am not arguing it. ill drop it here

edit: hang on this screwed up im trying to fix it.

edit: fixed

 

[noone]

gc70:

I somewhat agree.

my point is that we went to war on bad intelligence. there is no reason that the dems should not want out now that they know that.

do you not change your opinion when you gain new information?

yes dems voted to go to war. on bad intelligence. they now know this, they want out. Is this so wrong?

disclaimer: this is not opinion of what should happen Im just pointing it out.

 

[GoSlash27]

Rebar,
The entire foundation of your argument is worthless because you can't even be bothered to research your enemy. The insurgents don't care one way or the other whether we pull out now or pull out in 2 years.
They don't care!
The nature of jihad is such that they don't need to be emboldened. These people are willing to *die* for what they believe in. That's bold.
They don't have to be convinced that they can win. They believe with all the fervor they have in Allah that they WILL win. What they need convincing of is that there is a direct attack on Islam by the west in general and America in particular. Once they are convinced of that, they fight.
Whether we stay or go they will fight. Whether the consensus in Washington is to turn tail or stay the course, they will fight. They don't give a s*%t what the liberals think.
Whether we pull out today or 2 years from today, they're still going to overthrow the sitting government the moment we leave. If we leave now, we will avoid gutting our military, avoid more fruitless bloodshed, and billions from the treasury. <--That's the liberal mindset.

The *only* reason I don't agree with them is because I still believe we can win this war if only we fight smart. Dubya isn't willing to do that.