different test for mouse gun

penetration is more important than a little bit of unreliable expansion.

I agree. One of the better penetrating mouse gun caliber/gun combos is the humble .38 snub loaded with full or semi wadcutters. Less kick than most +P hollowpoints, but more penetration (little to no expansion though). I've considered switching the primary load in my little 642 from 158 grain +P LSWCHPs to 148 grain wadcutters to attain quicker follow up shots while still having more than enough penetrating power.

Recharging an empty gun with wadcutters is a PIA though, particularly from speedloaders, so a number of guys I know carry HPs or RNL/FMJ as a reload.
 
Hhmmm....The comment about an important consideration in a mouse gun is that one be able to shoot it well---this is a very good point. While I am inclined to think bigger is generally better, I'm also inclined to think that in a mouse gun, .32acp is a bit easier to handle by most folks than is a .380acp. [Personally, I prefer a 9mm to a .380 in terms of "shootability."] I'd go with a good .32acp, if I was going for a pocket gun.--Patrice
 
I agree. One of the better penetrating mouse gun caliber/gun combos is the humble .38 snub loaded with full or semi wadcutters. Less kick than most +P hollowpoints, but more penetration (little to no expansion though). I've considered switching the primary load in my little 642 from 158 grain +P LSWCHPs to 148 grain wadcutters to attain quicker follow up shots while still having more than enough penetrating power.

Recharging an empty gun with wadcutters is a PIA though, particularly from speedloaders, so a number of guys I know carry HPs or RNL/FMJ as a reload.

and i agree with you as well, my friend lol :)

i would keep lead semiwadcutter hollowpoint 158gr ammo in a .38 snub as well. there just aren't many jacketed hollowpoints that expand with any sort of consistency in .38 due to the low muzzle velocity. corbon dpx is one of the more reliable expanders, but it's obscenely overpriced, and often yaws off course once hitting target (due to some petals opening before the others). penetration is nothing impressive either due to low sectional density.
 
I'm not ragging on you guys,,,

But this thread is the first time I've ever heard a snubnose .38 called a mousegun.

This is what I always thought a mouse gun should look like.
PLY-hand.jpg


Aarond
 
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Good point...

maybe my 1911 3" barreled Springfield Armory micro compact now qualifies as a mousegun, its pretty much the same size as my 38 spl S&W Bodyguard....and the 1911 SA 'mousegun' blows thru (and demolishes) a double 2x4 easily.

PS:

Aarond ---

Your Taurus looks bigger than my SA 1911 micro, you can at least get all of your pinky on the grip.
 

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I'm thinking about the .38 bodyguard too, not sure if it will fit in my pocket. If it does that's going to the top of my list of possibles as I like the idea of a revolver over a semi auto for SD purposes. May only have 5 shots but jamming and the having slide knocked out of battery won't be on my worry list. Not saying the possibility for a jam doesn't exist but would be too much of a freakish occurance to worry about happening at THAT particular time.
 
For reference I can tell you that a Remington JHP fired from a Glock 26 from 15 feet will penetrate 1/8 glass a piece of quarter round molding and splatter agaist a painted 1x6. Don't ask me how I know. I was actually somewhat disappointed and reminded the limits of handgun calibers.
 
I do know that (in most cases) a 9mm 124 grain Gold Dot will not exit the ribcage of a live deer(moderate size). On more than one occasion, I've seen 38 Sp 158 grain swaged lead HP fail to fully penetrate a medium sized deer's neck after hitting the spine(range 10').
Using water filled milk jugs I've seen the .380 fmj penetrate further than the previously mentioned 9mm or 38 Sp so I will assume it will perform similarly on living tissue(especially internal organs). The best 380 HP(Critical Defense and Hydroshok) don't have nearly the penetration of the 380 fmj or the 9mmGD/38 125 HP in the water filled jugs. That said, I do feel the 380 CD or HydroShok are adequate for self defense if a larger type/caliber firearm is not a workable option.
 
Having owned everything from (half a dozen) j-frames to small Glocks to Kel-Tec P-32/P3AT and Ruger LCP, the only one I own is the Kahr PM9.

These days they make a CM9, which is quite a bit more affordable.
 
orionengnr

Having owned everything from (half a dozen) j-frames to small Glocks to Kel-Tec P-32/P3AT and Ruger LCP, the only one I own is the Kahr PM9.

These days they make a CM9, which is quite a bit more affordable.

Do they feed Pow'R ball's?:D
 
The 9mm is not a mousegun caliber. Neither is the .38 Spl. or the45acp. All of those are service calibers.

A mousegun is a small gun in a small caliber.

tipoc
 
The 9mm is not a mousegun caliber. Neither is the .38 Spl. or the45acp. All of those are service calibers.

A mousegun is a small gun in a small caliber.

tipoc

I read it, you said it, so it's true.:D
 
Argggggggggg - IT'S NOT JUST PENETRATION!

If it was, we could all just carry that .22 WRM pistol with FMJ and be done with it. It is shot placement and 'the size of the hole" - which you obtain by either bullet diameter or expansion.

You know, more warm blood out, more cold air in.

That's why generally, most people accept a performance "floor" of .38 Spl/9mm. Anything less has a poor record of actually stopping the fight before the good guys get hurt or killed.

The bad side about the lessor calibers is - they make you THINK you are armed.
 
8shot, you are not retarded, you just need to think about it. Carrying a 'mouse gun' gives you the impression "I have a gun, and can protect myself and my family".
That causes you to alter your reaction to circumstances. You drive down streets you would otherwise avoid; You may advance when, if unarmed, you would retreat; You may challenge when, unarmed, you would hide; you may take on an attacker when, unarmed, you would call 9-1-1. Then, when you mouse gun does not drop the bad guy like the Hammer of Thor, you and/or your loved ones get hurt.

My ideal is to always be armed (with an adequate caliber), yet act as if I am unarmed. Only when the threat is unavoidable will I act, and then utterly without mercy.
Cowardly? Nope, smart.

I don't fight fair, I fight to WIN! But I only fight when I must.
 
Relying on blood loss to incapacitate is not a very wise thing.
The only sure stop is a CNS hit.
This doesn't mean that penetration, expansion, or caliber is irrelevant- they just aren't nearly as relevant as some people think.
 
Bill, I disagree. To follow your advice is to say that unless you can target the CNS, you should not shoot.

There are three ways to stop an attacker:
1. CNS - most effective, but also the hardest to achieve. The skull is designed to protect the brain from impacts, and can be hard to penetrate. Plus, the head is usually in motion in a dynamic event. The spinal cord is only about the size of your thumb - also a tough target. If you can hit either of these targets in a high stress, dynamic event, while you and your target are moving, you are one in a million.
2. Blood loss - almost any hit can start the process - that is, if I hit him in the lower leg, even though I may never even see his CNS, when he bleeds out, I win. More hits, bigger holes, the faster he bleeds out.
3. Psychological stop - far more common than people think. Every attacker who runs when you merely produce a gun falls in this category, Also, those who give up at the sound of a shot, or when hit with a non-fatal wound.

And thus, for a "type 2" shot, the larger the wound channel, the faster the blood loss, thus an expanding bullet to increase the odds in our favor.

You may choose otherwise, but I will shoot my attacker in the center of available mass as many times as possible. If I hit his leg 5-6 times, he will bleed out that much faster. I can change his objective from killing me to his own survival.
 
Bill, I see from your web site that you are into knives. All of the knife fighters I have read uniformly depend on blood loss to end the fight. I have never heard of a knife fighter even suggesting a CNS cut, other than in the assassination of sentries.
 
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