secret_agent_man
Moderator
Do you know if the Gold Dots expanded?
Different look at caliber for SD
- Thread starter Noreaster
- Start date
Do you know if the Gold Dots expanded?
"357SIG and +P+ 9mm, with equivalent weight bullets, are basically the same thing."
No the Sig 357 is "more gun" - specifically, about 460 ft lbs for the +P+ and about 560 ft lbs for the Sig 357
Buffalo Bore is always a good place to start/end
Glock 19, 4 inch barrel----1296 fps 9mm +P+ 124 grain (about 460 ft lbs)
Sig. Mod. 229, 4 inch barrel - 1,430 fps 125 grain (567 ft. lbs.)
Two different classes not that a +P+ 9mm is a slouch but even at the red line it ain't no Sig .357
No the Sig 357 is "more gun" - specifically, about 460 ft lbs for the +P+ and about 560 ft lbs for the Sig 357
Buffalo Bore is always a good place to start/end
Glock 19, 4 inch barrel----1296 fps 9mm +P+ 124 grain (about 460 ft lbs)
Sig. Mod. 229, 4 inch barrel - 1,430 fps 125 grain (567 ft. lbs.)
Two different classes not that a +P+ 9mm is a slouch but even at the red line it ain't no Sig .357
Unless the bullet loaded into the sig case is built tougher, for slower expansion, the bullet will react more violently to the additional velocity upon impacting a target.
With FMJ's you're statement will hold true, since expansion isn't a consideration, and any additional momentum and/or energy will be wasted beyond the target. However, with expanding ammunition you must take terminal performance of the bullet into consideration.
With terminal performance of a bullet, you don't really need to consider what some call "hydrostatic shock" until the bullet reaches velocities over 1200 fps. Once you hit that point, something happens to increase the violence that occurs within the target. The faster you get from there, the more violent the target (flesh target) reacts to the bullet passing through it.
Shot placement is certainly king, but bullet performance is queen. Given equal shot placement, I'll take bigger over smaller, and then faster over slower...to a point.
At some point, (and it will vary between shooters) recoil does become a factor, and at some point bullet performance becomes a non-issue. Dead is dead, and if it happens instantly then the threat has ended. It's the capabilities of the cartridge/bullet combo, combined with the individual shooter's abilities that make or break the results in a life-threatening encounter.
And I'm pretty sure I don't want to tell you your wrong in your choice, just like I'm not going to listen too long to someone telling me I'm wrong in mine when I know I'm not; at least not for me.
We can all find reasons to boast our favorite cartridge for SD, but in the end it's an individual choice, and I don't think any of us are necessarily wrong in our views.
Daryl
According to Speer, its really not.
I emailed them back when I was enamored with the 357SIG trying to sort some things out between it an the 9mm. This was their reply....
AK103K: to some extent you're correct. The 9mm is a 35,000 psi, +P is
38,500 psi and +P+ is 40,000 psi. The 357 SIG is a 40,000 psi. Bullets
of the same weight will approximate the same velocities in SIG and +P+.
The difference is gun construction, all 9mm's will not handle +P+. All
of the 357 SIG's are made to handle the pressures for the caliber.
Shoot Straight!
Coy Getman
CCI/SPEER Technical Service
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
(800) 627-3640 ext. #5351 (pound key must be used)"
Now that was a couple of years ago, but if you compare your basic factory loadings, it does still seems to hold true. I used to carry Double Taps in mine, and they claimed higher velocities, as do Buffalo Bore, but Ive never personally seen anything to prove they do, and Ive "heard/read" a couple of reports to the contrary. I never noticed either to "feel" hotter when shot though.
Numbers are just numbers too, and everyone seems to have a set to throw around to prove their point. In reality, I doubt an equally placed hit with any of them would actually give a different result.
Buffalo Bore just prints the facts from actual guns and when one's "theory" is blown away by the facts it is hard to accept. The .357 Sig is in another class. Sorry it is just more gun and pressure is especially relevant when comparing straight wall cases with straight wall cases so the "bottle neck" of the sig 357 makes the pressure "theory" irrelevant. Again, just because the 357 Sig is "more gun" does not mean the +P+ red line 9mm is not a good round. Sorry, but you can take the Buffalo Bore ballistics to the bank.
dreamweaver
New member
9mm 147gr jhp +p thru a 5" gov't colt 1911 works well for me (i'm a lightweight) and i'm confident in the stopping power (you gotta see what it does to 1 gallon milk jugs filled with jello!) 
I tend to trust information from the major ammo makers than I do internet "hype" and "theory", especially when the answers they provide are basically unbiased. Speer wasnt trying to sell one or the other, and just told it like it was.
If Buffalo Bore, or Double Tap, or whoever is loading above the 40000psi limit, then they could be doing the things youre saying. I dont know, have they listed what their pressures are? Its my understanding, the 40000 psi point is the limit for the 357SIG, and nothing is spec'd above it that Ive seen. Ive never seen any 357SIG "+P", have you?
As Speer said, and it makes sense to me, if you drive bullets of the same caliber and weight at the same pressures, you would get similar results. If youre getting hotter results with the same pressures, then just what are you doing different to get the gain?
Daryl, I agree that damage will be based on velocity more than anything. The assessment of bullet performance, however, is not as easy to argue. Bullets, even the good ones, often fall short of what they should in ideal situations, because they are tested in a homogenous gelatin, not human tissue with differing densities. Depending on the objects they strike, performance will differ dramatically (bone, lung, etc.). This is unpredictable at best. Good JHPs clog; good JHPs get destroyed when they strike bone; good JHPs overpenetrate...
Most literature on the subject confirms that low-to-medium velocity pistol rounds do not cause any serious secondary wounding factors. The injuries do exist, but are not a big consideration when speaking of instant incapacitation. Instant incapacitation requires one to disrupt function of a major blood-circulating organ, a blood reservoir, or the brain/CNS. Unless the bullet traverses liver or brain tissue, the cavitation effect generally causes vascular damage to small vessels and a nasty hematoma. In the case that the bullet strikes a vital organ, the secondary wound cavitation does help a bit, but the penetrating trauma is much more of a concern. (Example: in the case of a heart shot, the cavitation causes greater damage than a penetrating wound from a knife, making it less survivable, but both are very deadly due to location of the injury more so.) Same with the ever-so-slight increase in diameter of the primary wound channel you get with a bullet that opens up a little more. It technically helps, but that "help" will not be realized during the time frame of a gunfight (seconds-to-minutes), assuming equal shots of different caliber. Say you miss an immediately critical-to-life organ, but hit something that is still important but not immediately deadly, such as the small intestine. Maybe they die an hour earlier from the extra blood loss, but when seconds count, does it really matter what happens 3 hours later?
Finally, if you look at my name, you will see I'm a big fan of 357 SIG. I like to carry it, as I like to carry my .40, .45, 10mm, and 9mm pistols. These days, it is really of little benefit to carry anything beyond the 9mm for self-defense against people, because the benefits that do exist are minimized by the speed, capacity, and efficient size of a 9mm pistol vs. a larger caliber. That doesn't mean anyone is shaking their head at another person's choice to go larger. Heck, I do it! I carry my 357 Glock 33 more than anything else. I also drive a fully-loaded truck, though we know it's not needed, and has no practical benefit over a base model, or less-equipped model. I don't care because I like it, but I know for a fact it doesn't do any better of a job at towing/hauling because I have leather seats...and I don't pretend it does.
After all the explanation, I do agree that larger, faster, or both larger and faster rounds technically add damage over lesser rounds, but when you compare rounds so close in the spectrum, the difference is so slight, that it often can not be realized in any case. In 12 years, I've never seen one shooting where a common service pistol caliber above 9mm/.38 was proven to be needed to make the stop. In other words, I've never seen proof that any SD round above 9mm has been proven to be better in the field. The "animal" that is human does not need more to be stopped.
Most literature on the subject confirms that low-to-medium velocity pistol rounds do not cause any serious secondary wounding factors. The injuries do exist, but are not a big consideration when speaking of instant incapacitation. Instant incapacitation requires one to disrupt function of a major blood-circulating organ, a blood reservoir, or the brain/CNS. Unless the bullet traverses liver or brain tissue, the cavitation effect generally causes vascular damage to small vessels and a nasty hematoma. In the case that the bullet strikes a vital organ, the secondary wound cavitation does help a bit, but the penetrating trauma is much more of a concern. (Example: in the case of a heart shot, the cavitation causes greater damage than a penetrating wound from a knife, making it less survivable, but both are very deadly due to location of the injury more so.) Same with the ever-so-slight increase in diameter of the primary wound channel you get with a bullet that opens up a little more. It technically helps, but that "help" will not be realized during the time frame of a gunfight (seconds-to-minutes), assuming equal shots of different caliber. Say you miss an immediately critical-to-life organ, but hit something that is still important but not immediately deadly, such as the small intestine. Maybe they die an hour earlier from the extra blood loss, but when seconds count, does it really matter what happens 3 hours later?
Finally, if you look at my name, you will see I'm a big fan of 357 SIG. I like to carry it, as I like to carry my .40, .45, 10mm, and 9mm pistols. These days, it is really of little benefit to carry anything beyond the 9mm for self-defense against people, because the benefits that do exist are minimized by the speed, capacity, and efficient size of a 9mm pistol vs. a larger caliber. That doesn't mean anyone is shaking their head at another person's choice to go larger. Heck, I do it! I carry my 357 Glock 33 more than anything else. I also drive a fully-loaded truck, though we know it's not needed, and has no practical benefit over a base model, or less-equipped model. I don't care because I like it, but I know for a fact it doesn't do any better of a job at towing/hauling because I have leather seats...and I don't pretend it does.
After all the explanation, I do agree that larger, faster, or both larger and faster rounds technically add damage over lesser rounds, but when you compare rounds so close in the spectrum, the difference is so slight, that it often can not be realized in any case. In 12 years, I've never seen one shooting where a common service pistol caliber above 9mm/.38 was proven to be needed to make the stop. In other words, I've never seen proof that any SD round above 9mm has been proven to be better in the field. The "animal" that is human does not need more to be stopped.
It's all about shot placement. It always has been, and, with current tech of course, always will be.
Then, it comes down to the penetration and expansion of your bullet to do the rest of the work. Is a 9x19mm which is proven to penetrate to 16.0" and expand upwards of 0.75" not enough? What more do you need, especially if you hit the target two or three or four times in the chest? According to Winchester's site, the 230gr .45 ACP expands to ~0.75" as well, so what separates the 147gr Federal Tactical HST which expands to ~0.75" from a 230gr Ranger-T bullet which expands to ~0.75?" Simple, the recoil felt in your hand.
As for the .357 SIG... Yes, it does it's job, the same way 9x19mm does, the same way .40 S&W does, etc. It punches a hole similar to a 9mm, but it travels faster.
I have an issue with the .357 SIG, however. The fact that it travels so much faster than your average 9mm bullet can cause major bullet failures with relative ease. I would refer you to these two videos on YouTube which document the failure(s) of both the Speer Gold Dot and Winchester Ranger-T .357 SIG bullets. [Note: You'd experience much greater success with a bonded bullet as core/jacket separation is highly unlikely, although, as you will see, the Speer Gold Dot experiences a failure of its own].
Winchester Ranger-T 125gr .357 SIG
Speer Gold Dot 125gr .357 SIG
We've seen similar issues with "fast" 9mm bullets in the past, though, for the most part, we no longer experience these issues. The problem is .357 SIG bullets are virtually 9mm bullets shot at speeds 9mm bullets shouldn't be traveling at. We know that firing extremely fast 9mm bullets can cause core/jacket separation, can break off the "petals," can cause the bullet to overexpand and thus underpenetrate, or can cause the bullet to clog in heavy clothing and/or denim and thus become a FMJ.
Anyways... That being said, I'd have no qualms with carrying a .357 SIG if I had to, or for that matter, 9x19mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP. I just wanted to mention the above, but they all will do their job with good shot placement. (Just give me a 147gr .357 SIG bonded bullet!!! )
Then, it comes down to the penetration and expansion of your bullet to do the rest of the work. Is a 9x19mm which is proven to penetrate to 16.0" and expand upwards of 0.75" not enough? What more do you need, especially if you hit the target two or three or four times in the chest? According to Winchester's site, the 230gr .45 ACP expands to ~0.75" as well, so what separates the 147gr Federal Tactical HST which expands to ~0.75" from a 230gr Ranger-T bullet which expands to ~0.75?" Simple, the recoil felt in your hand.
As for the .357 SIG... Yes, it does it's job, the same way 9x19mm does, the same way .40 S&W does, etc. It punches a hole similar to a 9mm, but it travels faster.
I have an issue with the .357 SIG, however. The fact that it travels so much faster than your average 9mm bullet can cause major bullet failures with relative ease. I would refer you to these two videos on YouTube which document the failure(s) of both the Speer Gold Dot and Winchester Ranger-T .357 SIG bullets. [Note: You'd experience much greater success with a bonded bullet as core/jacket separation is highly unlikely, although, as you will see, the Speer Gold Dot experiences a failure of its own].
Winchester Ranger-T 125gr .357 SIG
Speer Gold Dot 125gr .357 SIG
We've seen similar issues with "fast" 9mm bullets in the past, though, for the most part, we no longer experience these issues. The problem is .357 SIG bullets are virtually 9mm bullets shot at speeds 9mm bullets shouldn't be traveling at. We know that firing extremely fast 9mm bullets can cause core/jacket separation, can break off the "petals," can cause the bullet to overexpand and thus underpenetrate, or can cause the bullet to clog in heavy clothing and/or denim and thus become a FMJ.
Anyways... That being said, I'd have no qualms with carrying a .357 SIG if I had to, or for that matter, 9x19mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP. I just wanted to mention the above, but they all will do their job with good shot placement. (Just give me a 147gr .357 SIG bonded bullet!!!
)@jmortimer
The average 125gr .357 SIG round travels at ~1,350 fps in a 4" barrel which equates to ~506 ft-lbs KE.
The 127gr +P+ 9mm you are referring to travels at ~1,250 fps in a 4" barrel which equates to ~440 ft-lbs KE.
The difference is minuscule in the grand scheme of things. The 147gr HST is proven to work just as well as both, but it penetrates deeper, expands more consistently and has no issues with jacket/core separation. It travels at only ~1,000 fps in a 4" barrel which equates to ~330 ft-lbs KE.
EDIT: I'm guessing you are a proponent of the theory of hydrostatic shock, where high velocity and kinetic energy can produce "remote wounding effects." I remember reading Massad Ayoob where he said that the 9mm 115gr +P+ was the best round you could possibly own. Federal and Winchester don't even make that round (referring to premium law enforcement such as HST and Ranger-T) because it had big time issues with underpenetration and core/jacket separation...
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Federal doesn't make a +P+ 115 gr hp, are you sure. They are remarkably easy to find.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM406-5.html
Winchester still makes the following load, RA9115HP+ Winchester 9mm 115gr +P+ jhp 50 rounds.
I'll also point out that because a bullet fails in a water test, doesn't mean it will fail in a gell test. Gell is the standard for a reason.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM406-5.html
Winchester still makes the following load, RA9115HP+ Winchester 9mm 115gr +P+ jhp 50 rounds.
I'll also point out that because a bullet fails in a water test, doesn't mean it will fail in a gell test. Gell is the standard for a reason.
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I was referring to premium rounds, my fault. But you proved the point I was trying to make; those rounds were a huge fad in the 90s and are no longer relevant on the law enforcement "stage." Most LEAs opt for the heaviest bullet in the given caliber with a few exceptions here and there. The most popular is the 180gr .40 S&W.
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AK103K asked:
This is a good question, and one that I have asked in the past. The answer I got from some folks who knew about loading ammo was this:
You find a powder mix that will maintain a given peak pressure for a longer duration of time.
An example that leaps to mind, though it doesn't involve centerfire ammo, is the Sea Sparrow missile system. The initial acceleration of the missile is a big spike, which only lasts less than a second. Thrust then drops significantly, but continues at its lower level for several seconds.
Similarly, gunpowder mixes may spike early, then drop off rapidly.
What Tim Sundles seems good at doing is finding mixes that stay up in the high range of specified pressure, instead of spiking and dropping.
FWIW, friends with chronographs have verified Buffalo Bore claims, and mentioned that if anything, actual performance often exceeds claimed performance.
This is a good question, and one that I have asked in the past. The answer I got from some folks who knew about loading ammo was this:
You find a powder mix that will maintain a given peak pressure for a longer duration of time.
An example that leaps to mind, though it doesn't involve centerfire ammo, is the Sea Sparrow missile system. The initial acceleration of the missile is a big spike, which only lasts less than a second. Thrust then drops significantly, but continues at its lower level for several seconds.
Similarly, gunpowder mixes may spike early, then drop off rapidly.
What Tim Sundles seems good at doing is finding mixes that stay up in the high range of specified pressure, instead of spiking and dropping.
FWIW, friends with chronographs have verified Buffalo Bore claims, and mentioned that if anything, actual performance often exceeds claimed performance.
Thanks MLeake for clarifying that. That too makes sense.
My main question to Speer when I wrote them, was whether or not there was a velocity barrier that dramatically increased the effectiveness of the 357SIG over the hotter 9mm's. You saw their answer above. Having had both, and shot, or seen "things" shot with both, what they had explained pretty much held out.
I dont have anything against the 357SIG, other than now its really become pricey, but that alone can make quite a big difference when you practice on a weekly basis.
Shooting wise, if youre shooting the +/- equivalent loads, the guns shoot pretty much the same, so there really is not difference there. Im not sure the slight bit of increase with the BB's and DT's will give that "thunderbolt" though. Then again, if the old lady see's the bill for those couple of cases of 357SIG you just bought, I'll bet there will be some, and thunder too.
My main question to Speer when I wrote them, was whether or not there was a velocity barrier that dramatically increased the effectiveness of the 357SIG over the hotter 9mm's. You saw their answer above. Having had both, and shot, or seen "things" shot with both, what they had explained pretty much held out.
I dont have anything against the 357SIG, other than now its really become pricey, but that alone can make quite a big difference when you practice on a weekly basis.
Shooting wise, if youre shooting the +/- equivalent loads, the guns shoot pretty much the same, so there really is not difference there. Im not sure the slight bit of increase with the BB's and DT's will give that "thunderbolt" though. Then again, if the old lady see's the bill for those couple of cases of 357SIG you just bought, I'll bet there will be some, and thunder too.
I'm a big believer in trial and error.
See what shoots closest to POA for my fixed sights. Results can vary, sometimes with surprising results. (Example, my PX4 compact 9mm does best with 115gr, while my PX4 sub-compact does best with 147gr...)
See what rounds that meet penetration and expansion criteria function in my guns (if autos).
From those, find which ones I can shoot best (rapidly and accurately).
Also, compare for noise and flash. (These don't matter to some people; I prefer to keep the light show to a minimum.)
Based on my personal results, I don't prefer .357SIG, although I respect its capabilities.
See what shoots closest to POA for my fixed sights. Results can vary, sometimes with surprising results. (Example, my PX4 compact 9mm does best with 115gr, while my PX4 sub-compact does best with 147gr...)
See what rounds that meet penetration and expansion criteria function in my guns (if autos).
From those, find which ones I can shoot best (rapidly and accurately).
Also, compare for noise and flash. (These don't matter to some people; I prefer to keep the light show to a minimum.)
Based on my personal results, I don't prefer .357SIG, although I respect its capabilities.
cougar gt-e
New member
There is a "hydrostatic shock" that occurs with gunshot wounds, but that phenomenon's efficacy is essentially zero at 1200 fps. You have to increase impact velocity to over 2000 fps before it becomes a notable factor in incapacitation. But even then, the bullet size, shape and what you strike with the bullet can alter, reduce or even nullify the effect. For handguns, the only effects you can rely on are physical damage and blood loss.
For the OP's original question: 357sig is better at penetration of intermediate barriers and still being able to incapacitate the target than a 9mm. For self defense, citizens shouldn't be shooting through barriers as that would make determining it a "good shoot" a tough call. About any caliber from .380 on up is good for SD. Shooter confidence in the ability to hit the target (and actually being able to do so) are more important than which caliber, IMHO.