Different look at caliber for SD

N

Noreaster

New member
I'm LEO and have been for many years. I started out with a GP100 issued with Blackhills 38spl +P. Next duty gun was a DAO P94, then a Glock 22, now issued and carrying P229 in 357 sig. I liked everyone of those firearms. I've owned and privately shot many more. My newest pet project is a PX4 9mm which I've been shooting allot on my own time.

I really like my Sig and carry the gun and round with confidence. I just did a Police Pistol Competition where speed and accuracy was a huge factor in the score. I did very well but really had to rush my shots, (speed was the final score with time deducted for lack of accuracy.) I noted that the 357 sig does indeed jump allot in my hand and follow up shots were affected by it. The muzzle blast and concussion were a factor on the indoor range. I only had four rounds outside the designated zone (heart & face,) with one round off the target body. One miss and three outside the "kill zone." I tended to track upward with my rounds from the recoil or snap of the gun/caliber.

Here is my point. I know that I could have done that course of fire quicker and more accurately with my PX4 9mm. I'm no wimp. I shoot all the time and I handgun hunt with the big boy calibers. Here is the bigger question for all of us. Does a 9mm allow for more accurate fire with quicker follow up shots. A quality JHP slug with adequate penetration in the kill zone, done quickly when needed, is probably just as good as high speed or large diameter slug in the same spot. I know, "get it done with the first round and you won't have to worry about it." But there is something to my thoughts on this. Sorry for the long post, just something to think about.
 
I am of the opinion that if I carry forward my training of always firing at least 2 rounds, into the self defense situation, and can put those two rounds in BG, any caliber .380 or larger will suffice. Because, my intent is too only stop the action against me or deter it long enough to allow my escape.
 
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For some riders, a Hayabusa offered great acceleration and performance. For many riders, abrupt application of throttle could cause a big wheelie and toss them off the back of the Hayabusa.

My lady is into dressage and fox hunting. She has Holsteiner horses. Her primary is 18 hands. I can't ride her horses. I am a novice, and their movement is so large that a trot feels like it will launch me.

A buddy of mine used to race F2000 open cockit cars for Marlborough. He owns a Roush 427 Mustang. He can do things with that car that, if I tried, would wreck the car and/or kill me.

What all these have in common is: more power than one can control is not useful, and can often be harmful.

Same holds true for guns.
 
Im a big fan of the 357 Sig round as well. While I cant shoot it as accurately as my 9mm counterparts, Id still rather have that caliber over 9mm and give up a few milliseconds on a follow up shot. I can shoot my 22 even faster than my 9mm....but you get the point. Unless the 357 Sig round is causing you to be all over the place(which judging by your post, that doesnt seem to be the case) id just stick with it, I beleive its the best overall SD round out right now.

The problem here is that you are talking about SD and competition shooting in the same sense. If you are concerned with speed for "time and score" by all means go to 9mm. If you are more ocncerned self preservation carry the most adequate caliber that you can keep center mass with. I see guys shoot IDPA matched witha Glock 34 and just before they leave the range they strap on their G27.

I see where youre coming from though. I know I can shoot faster and more accurately with my 226 in 9mm than I can with my 226 in 357, the difference being less than 2 second and less than 2in......for competition it matters, for SD, not so much. I'll take the slower shot times and better caliber when it counts.
 
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Agree with warpig

...and you could have done it quicker still with 22LR. But that's not the point. The point is to do well with your police pistol.

No point in second guessing it.
 
One thing I noticed with my Glock 31 was, when I popped its Lone Wolf 9mm barrel in the gun, and shot 127 grain +P+ out of it, the gun shot and handled very much like it did when its 357SIG barrel was in the gun. The only real difference was its "bark".

357SIG and +P+ 9mm, with equivalent weight bullets, are basically the same thing.

The advantage goes to the 9mm for versatility, as you can practice for cheap and have a wider range of loadings. If you do carry the hotter loadings, you really should practice with loads in that range to be proficient with it, as the difference in how the gun handles between the loads at either end of the spectrum is noticeable.

Now if youre shooting paper for time and score, like all the other gun games, you shoot the lightest recoiling round you can, out of the most tricked up gun you can find, to get that edge.
 
Power vs. follow-up is an issue that must be carefully considered. Most people can shoot a .22 very quickly and accurately with a moderate amount of practice, but most people would not rely on a .22 for self-defense due to its lack of power. Conversely, a .500 S&W has plenty of power, but most people would not rely on one for SD because of a lack of controlability.

You have to find the balance that you're most comfortable with. All of my serious SD guns fall into a certain range of power. About the upper limit of a handgun that I can still shoot reasonably quickly and accurately is a .44 Magnum while the smallest calibers that I trust for self-defense are 9mm and .38 Special, usually I carry something in between.
 
I think that you're right. The 9 will allow for faster follow up shots. I have a .44 2" revolver that I carry. I have it loaded with .44 Special Silvertips, because I can dump those 5 rounds very quickly and accurately into a small target. I'm can't do it as well with magnum loads. And...I have faith in the special to get the job done.
 
Noreaster

Here is my point. I know that I could have done that course of fire quicker and more accurately with my PX4 9mm. I'm no wimp. I shoot all the time and I handgun hunt with the big boy calibers. Here is the bigger question for all of us. Does a 9mm allow for more accurate fire with quicker follow up shots. A quality JHP slug with adequate penetration in the kill zone, done quickly when needed, is probably just as good as high speed or large diameter slug in the same spot. I know, "get it done with the first round and you won't have to worry about it." But there is something to my thoughts on this.
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Your question in bold is incomplete. Compared to what? Yes to some and no to other cartridges.

Your post raises the issue, again, about defensive handgun cartridges. I hold that all defensive handgun cartridges are under powered and that is why we are taught to shoot at least twice to center of mass, assess and proceed as necessary.
I define defensive handgun cartridges as those that are less powerful than full load .41/44 magnum power level.

Also consider, that in the event you do have to engage a threat with deadly force and you deliver two fast well placed shots to center of mass that cause maximum hemorrhaging, the threat may continue to fight and/or shoot for many seconds more.

I have never shot a human, but I have shot many white tail deer that have run about 100 yards with no heart function and a broken leg.

Additionally, MLeake makes an important point that each of us are individuals with unique qualities and skills. So that what you are competent with is different from other individuals. It seems to suggest that you find what works best for you.
 
Here's the deal, in my mind and opinion, with the balance of speed and accuracy. The major defensive calibers 9mm and up are all capable SD rounds, so use the one you can shoot the quickest while still keeping your rounds center mass.

I hear over and over again that accuracy is king and while that is true to a degree, if you can keep your rounds in center mass .5 of a second faster than the guy who has to have that slight bit more accurate shot, your chance of winning that fight are much higher than his. It takes a most bullets, at most defensive situations, less time to arrive on target than the target has time to react. So to me, speed with combat effective hits trumps extra accuracy. It's called a balance of speed and accuracy drill for a reason, they are both needed to be effective.
 
Does a 9mm allow for more accurate fire with quicker follow up shots.
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Its more like "it depends".

If your shooting 124-127 grain +P+, its really not any different. If youre shooting WWB 115 grain, then yea, probably.
 
Just picked up a Beretta PX4 9mm Compact (F type) yesterday; put several hundred rounds through it today. It seems to like 115gr and 124gr ammo the best; it really, really likes Cor-Bon DPX 115gr +P, based on POI compared to POA.

It's extremely controllable (for me) with the DPX; I have no doubts about the abilities of DPX and the Barnes X bullet to penetrate and expand beautifully.

The PX4 itself is lightweight and easy to carry. I have 15+1, with a spare magazine of 15 on the other side...

For me to shoot a .357SIG as quickly and accurately as I can shoot 9mm DPX from the PX4 compact, the gun would have to be heavier. I'm not sure I'd gain a clear advantage by carrying the heavier gun, as the 9mm DPX tears a nasty hole. (Check out the Cor-Bon website, I think they have vids of ballistic gelatin tests.)

So, first point, for a concealed carry gun, I think I'm personally better off with the 9mm, using known, good ammunition. (Although I also like K-frames in lightly loaded .357Mag or very hot .38+P.)

Now, if I were ISSUED a particular gun in .357SIG, I'd do at least the following:

1) Practice with it a lot, in timed drills;
2) Figure out if there were any simple modifications I could make that would help my performance (typically, this means changing grips; I can shoot a .357SIG gun with a properly fitting grip at least as fast as I could shoot a 9mm with a poorly fitting grip). Of course, other changes specific to controlling recoil could include porting the barrel (if you don't mind fireworks), adding weight to the forward part of the frame, etc.
3) Dry fire the heck out of it.

Also, if the department didn't specify a particular load, I'd experiment with different loads in .357SIG to find out which ones were both accurate and relatively controllable.
 
I've shot so many rounds in the 357 sig in the last twelve years I have total faith in the gun and round. But when I put myself in that speed shoot I did see a difference. I'm really thinking about of extra fps & ft. lbs vs. accuracy and speed. I wouldn't mind a P229 in 9mm right now. For the time being I'm issued a 357 sig and I'm happy with it. Just thinking out loud and wanted to hear what you guys and gals had to say about it.
 
this question goes back to the old question "what is the best deer (caliber) rifle?"

The answer is of course. Do you hit what you are aiming at and does it put meat on the table. If the answer is yes to both issues, then that is the best caliber/rifle for you.

If you are seeking trophies, then use the 9mm.

If you are seeking to improve your survival skills on the street, Then use your duty pistol and carry rig.

I once shot IPSCA with a gentleman who wore an old suit coat, dress shoes, and his concealed holster and mag pouch. He only won one match. He did not get a trophy for his win. He saved his wife's life as well as his when he encountered a crazy who was intent on taking their lives.
 
Does a 9mm allow for more accurate fire with quicker follow up shots. A quality JHP slug with adequate penetration in the kill zone, done quickly when needed, is probably just as good as high speed or large diameter slug in the same spot.
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I'm not LEO, BTW thank you for your service, but I'm convinced what you say is true. I carry 9mm and 40 s&w in both plastic and all steel from time to time. Without a doubt I would be most effective with my Smith 5906. All steel and heavy in 9mm. Recoil is minimal and proper placement of a 9mm high velocity JHP should do the job.

Also, although I have carried 40 s&w a lot, I have always been bothered by the reduction in round count. I almost never carry an extra mag. It only haunts me when I imagine more than one perp.
 
MLeake,

I think you made a nice analogy, so I'm going to use it further.

Some riders think a Hayabusa is great, it is very powerfull. They may be good enough riders to handle it, but if we consider that they have to race a track, no mather how good they are, they would be faster on a 1000cc or a 600cc.

Yes, some shooters may handle the recoil of a 357 mag better then I handle a 9mm. But if these particular shooters would have used a 9mm, they would have been a lot faster. Being faster then your opponent = life.

Some people will say that you need at least two body shots with a 9mm to be sure the threat has been neutralised while he's going to get down with one 357. But three 357 mags in the body are a less reliable "stopper" then one 9mil or even one 32 ACP in the central nervous system. This doesn't mean I would use a 32 ACP in a SD situation, but considering that a 9mm has proven to have enough penetration to reach all the organs a 45 ACP, a 40s&w or a 357 sig would reach, I'm thinking faster equals better in this case.
 
When it comes down to it, there is nothing that the 357 can do in a human body that a 9mm can't. Yes, there is more power and velocity, but not enough to make a notable difference in effectiveness with any reliability. Yes, people can cherry pick examples of devastating performance from a 357 SIG, then pick a terrible 9mm failure for comparison, but that is not the proper, accurate, or honest way to do things. The fact is there are triumphs and failures with each caliber to the point that it all washes even, in the end. The body will respond to all trauma; it can react faster when the trauma is greater. With that said, people, like animals, don't react the same, nor do they become incapacitated at the same rate, even if you shoot two under exactly the same conditions (caliber, shot placement, body size, load, temp, etc.). Deer hunters can certainly agree with this. This variability really prevents any round from being better than another (speaking of the common defense rounds, not .22 vs. .454 Casull; again, an unfair comparison...one which seems to be made a lot for some reason).

Shot placement is king, and (again) deer hunters can attest to it. Trauma can look much worse than it is. The body can take a lot of injury to non-vitals and keep going. It is when you hit the vitals that the body shuts down.
 
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I carry a 15 shot 9mm with confidence. I could probably use a 40 S&W as easily since a similar pistol is available in 40 but I have a lot of experience with the 9 and it has proven adequate. Since testing on humans is frowned on, I have based my choice on the shooting involving vehicle struck deer. These animals are hyped on adrenalin from the accident and the proximity of people. The 124 grain GoldDot has performed perfectly on every animal with a chest shot putting them down w/o further suffering. I didn't normally try a neck shot as the head was usually moving around a lot while a ribcage shot was much easier. Most shots were a few feet to 10 yards or about what the expected SD confrontation might be. This is a quite limited test sample but I surely believe I've put as many bullets into living creatures as a large percentage of the other selfproclaimed "experts" in making this choice.
My point is that I have a combination I'm comfortable with and have confidence in and I'll stay with it even though there certainly may be better choices.
 
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