Did I over-react or under-react?

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This is how freedom dies......Paranoia about individuals who "look" Arabic or Middle Eastern is still rampant six years after 9/11.
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No, freedom dies if ONLY six years later, we're forgetting that a large group of people want to kill us because we are free. No comprimise, just die. They can wait a hundred years, they don't care. Freedom dies when we forget that. That is so D*MN madening to hear it makes me want to spit nails. I wish there was a way to make a computer shout. I can't believe that hasn't got through to some people yet.

The same people who would be quick to post the quote from Thomas Jefferson......
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.....
Would be as enraged as I am to hear such blather.
 
I bet you could walk down the streets of Nazi Germany without fear of being mugged
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WOW! Can't respond to this, I'm punching key so hard I'll break the keyboard.
I'd sooner walk the worst streets of this country on a daily basis than be even remotely tolerant of WWII Germany
 
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No, freedom dies if ONLY six years later, we're forgetting that a large group of people want to kill us because we are free. No comprimise, just die. They can wait a hundred years, they don't care. Freedom dies when we forget that.
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Somebody always wants to kill us. 30 years ago it was the Russians. In the 60's and 70's it was homegrown groups like the SLA and the Weathermen. Now we have N. Korea and some Islamic terrorists. Get used to it.

The goal of terrorism is simple: change the way people live. A terrorized citizenry will accept more restrictive measures until freedom is gone, or the citizenry eventually revolts. Either way, THEY WIN. The only rational response of a free people is to take reasonable precautions while still preserving the freedoms they value. The Constitution applies to EVERYONE or it's over. THEY WIN. Suspecting someone or investigating someone because of their race or ethnicity is unconstitutional and UNAMERICAN. The Supreme Court ruled on this long ago where law enforcement is concerned.

Some here have said racial profiling works. Let's see:

McVeigh and Nichols - OK City Fed. Bldg. bombing - white males
Eric Rudolph - Olympic Park bombing and others - white male
Ted Kcyzinski - Unabomber - multiple bombings - white male
Almost every school shooter from Columbine to Pearl, MS - white males
Whitman - University of Texas Tower sniper - white male

HMMMMM.

Still advocating racial profiling? Let's look at the slippery slope. (Bear in mind I'm a LEO) Racial profiling is now approved. Let's look at the crime stats. Gee, almost every single recorded instance of a serial killer or a pedophile is a white male. If racial profiling works for jihadists, it works for serial killers and pedophiles. Get used to being searched when you go to pick up your kid at school, you might be one of those pedophiles cruising for kids. You look suspicious: white male, alone in a car, parked near a school...

I bet if we work on those crime stats we can pull some serious crime for each race or ethnicity. Pretty soon my job gets easier: I can stop/search/investigate whoever I want. My arrest rate will go up dramatically. Hey, since this works so good let's relax the requirements for search warrants and wiretaps on those bad races (all of them). Pretty soon you ARE living in a police state.

Oh, wait, you just wanted me to be able to protect you from those Middle Eastern terrorists. Sorry.
 
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McVeigh and Nichols - OK City Fed. Bldg. bombing - white males
Eric Rudolph - Olympic Park bombing and others - white male
Ted Kcyzinski - Unabomber - multiple bombings - white male
Almost every school shooter from Columbine to Pearl, MS - white males
Whitman - University of Texas Tower sniper - white male
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THAT is a VERY SHORT list...

I would like to write the instances where Islamic/Muslim/Middle Eastern Males between the ages of 17 and 40 have committed bombings both here and abroad across many, many countries...but I don't want to wear out my fingers.
 
I think your response was appropriate.

Was it profiling? I'll leave that to the hand wringing bedwetters that cry about such things. People with common sense and reasoning abilities know that a member of a racial group associated with a 5x higher rate of criminality deserves closer attention. A member of a religious group/death cult associated with the frequent murdering of innocent people needs special attention. A social group engaging in methamphetamine manufacturing and distribution, and a high level of violence and other criminality requires our attention. A person with gang or prison tattoos demands attention. The list goes on and on, but the bottom line is this: We are on our own. We are responsible for our own survival and preservation. If our observations make our fellow men safer, it seems like a good thing to me. If it pisses off the the elements of this society who snivel about it being discrimination in the above circumstances, that's a win-win situation.

In Scottsdale, the backpack was probably full of money.

twb
 
Gee, almost every single recorded instance of a serial killer or a pedophile is a white male.
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Thats partially why Wayne Williams and the Beltway Snipers got away for so long, statistical anomalies.

Did you read my Rule of Life re: Hinky?

Here try this WHITE one if you think hinkiness is racial alone:

White guy in suit and tie striding normally into an Womens Health Clinic...Dr or lawyer.

White guy in suit and tie pacing nervously in front of said clinic, sweating, sunglasses on a cloudy day, with a briefcase.....

Bomber? Plenty of other reasons, but my radar goes up.

Read the OP again....there were a combo of "hinky' factors there.

Hinky radar is something that comes from training and experience. Dont confuse it, like some folks do, with the worthless concept of racial profiling.

WildaskanoldcopabouthinkynessAlaska TM
 
Read response #63 and was about to go off on a bender. Read the next three and realized that pseudo-patriotic snivel will not be tolerated by those who have a grasp on the true nature of the world around us.

Still advocating racial profiling?
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Please point out where I made any such reference.

Somebody always wants to kill us. 30 years ago it was the Russians.
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At least the Russians were willing to lie; "We have no nuclear weapons. Yuri, have you seen any nuclear weapons??" "Why no, I haven't seen any at all Comrad, Why do you ask??". (with the exception of one shoe-banger). They did't make a habit of bombing subways to cause fear.
Terrorists are "Evilists" and evil has a way of hiding away and waiting for complacency. You know, like those who say things like;

Paranoia about individuals who "look" Arabic or Middle Eastern is still rampant six years after 9/11.
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or

This same type of thinking justified the creation of concentration camps in the U.S. during WWII.
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Yeah, it waits for us to question ourselves and our motives. It waits for us to criticize ourselves, and find enough dissidents to make positive action unpopular and thus, inappropriate.
 
In Scottsdale, the backpack was probably full of money.
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Why, TWB, whatever do you mean? :p

Yeah, Scottsdale has a buck or two. Wish I had a grasp on some of those bucks, though.:(

I'm happy with my response. I observed from a distance that (I hope:eek:) was safe, I took a picture when I decided that my initial "hinkiness" was valid, I alerted store employees to the suspected problem and I called the investigative authorities after further reflection.

Thanks for the discussion guys. Good to know that I'm on-the-cutting-edge-of-being-slightly-out-of-tune-with-the-code-white-norm (and that I'm not completely couch commando).:D
 
Stay out of it. Wallmart has security. Let them handle it.

If it were a rape or an assault on an innocent party, get into it. But punks shoplifting? Eh.
 
JollyRoger +1 Gazillion... Why do people blindly ignore the fact that there is as much of an excuse to search every piece of your baggage in the airport as there is a "Middle Easterner" (who probably isn't one anyway)? What number of people that fit that profile (which is based on looks because who knows if they really are) are violent offenders (or will be)? Do you believe that it is higher than the number of white males that are violent offenders? It offends me that my rights could be violated for ANY "good" reason. Besides, who believes that suspending the rights of people who fit the profile is really protecting anyone. If the guy had been a bomber, and the OP's gut was right, would it have made a difference? The place would have been gone. Ok, so now the FBI knows. LE is still basically a reactionary tool (Jolly, correct me if I'm wrong here) in my estimation. If they don't get enough stuff, quickly enough, it does no good.

I am MUCH more afraid of the sexual predators that lurk around our state fair here in OK messing with my wife if I'm not with her than any number of terrorists. After all, the hundreds of people lined up at metal detectors all across the country now make a perfect target for a mass shooting or bombing. Instead of blowing up an airplane, just get 'em on the ground.
 
LE is still basically a reactionary tool (Jolly, correct me if I'm wrong here) in my estimation. If they don't get enough stuff, quickly enough, it does no good.
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Doesn't that fly in the face of everything you just said?
 
If the guy had been a bomber, and the OP's gut was right, would it have made a difference?
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Not according to your way of doing things. Proaction may have made a difference.
Besides, who believes that suspending the rights of people who fit the profile is really protecting anyone.
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When did this happen?
 
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I'm not sure about what you mean by "my way of doing things"... Maybe you thought I was supporting profiling? Not sure...

Also, I'm not saying that it has happened (suspending people's rights) but I think that justifying some of the things we justify today in the name of "safety" is getting awfully close. Some might say that rounding up Japanese-Americans during WWII was suspending someones rights, though...
 
Can't see the forest. Too many trees in the way.

Read the next three and realized that pseudo-patriotic snivel will not be tolerated by those who have a grasp on the true nature of the world around us.
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A grasp of the true nature of the world around you? The situation described is a Middle Eatern - looking individual with a large backpack in a Wal-Mart in Scottsdale, AZ. A WAL-MART in SCOTTSDALE, AZ. To date there has been no terrorist attack or averted attempted attack by terrorists of international origin which did not target NYC, LA, or DC. But these guys are going to bypass all that to hit the SCOTTSDALE WALMART. With a backpack bomb. You know, they hit the busses in London and the trains in Madrid (look, other major cities, known throughout the world, not Scottsdale) because these vehicles would contain the blasts and cause more damage and casualties. Your typical Wal-Mart open store setup would minimize blast effects. Total paranoid fantasy.

I would like to write the instances where Islamic/Muslim/Middle Eastern Males between the ages of 17 and 40 have committed bombings both here and abroad across many, many countries...but I don't want to wear out my fingers.
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Go ahead and list 'em, but exclude the incidents abroad because the poster was HERE. Therefore any question of reasonableness in his response has to be judged based on his location in the U.S., and incidents in other countries are irrevelant based on a variety of factors.

The factors that can render a person "hinky" include, but are not limited to, race, creed, colour, sex,ocupation, age, mode of dress, possessions, body language, time of day, geographic location and any other usual or unusual factor that alone, or in combination, make a reasonable observer concerned, suspicious, alarmed or alert.
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Your definition of "hinky" and mine differ. "Hinkiness" in typical LE parlance is nervousness or suspicion displayed by a bad guy. If you're trying to do a drug rip and the bad guy keeps trying to change the location, he's gotten hinky and probably won't do the deal. The other factors you note go to appropriateness of an individual for a particular setting: If you see a guy who looks wrong in an area you are familiar with, it may bear further inquiry. This doesn't apply to Wal-mart. Everyone goes to Wal-Mart.

Was it profiling? I'll leave that to the hand wringing bedwetters that cry about such things.
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Beautiful. I'm a hand-wringing bedwetter because I DISAGREE with running hellbent for leather to the back of the store when I see a Middle Eastern - looking guy or two at the front of the store. Good thing I know where to find the tough-guy action heros: the back of the store.

If it pisses off the the elements of this society who snivel about it being discrimination in the above circumstances, that's a win-win situation.
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If you're talking about me, I didn't snivel, nor did I call it discrimination. The practice of casting the pall of suspicion over someone because of the way they look is BIGOTRY, pure and simple. You can wrap it in the flag, or justify it with 9/11, but it still stinks. Feel free to congratulate yourself in reporting those individuals who have the gall to go around being Middle Eastern (looking) right there in Wal-Mart, public restaurants or even (gasp) on the street. I guarantee your report got round-filed before you hung up the phone, 'cause cops have been swamped with calls like these, so much so it's a miracle they manage to wade through it and find pertinent information.

My previous rant, however was meant to express a very simple concept. You cannot separate the rights of even the most suspect citizen from your own. If you allow their rights to be degraded, or assist in degrading their rights, yours will eventually suffer the same fate.

Go ahead and flame, I'm done.
 
JollyRoger,
It seems that you have a preference for your own brand of more politically correct paranoia. No, I wasn't referring to you, at all. At the time of my post, I had not read your post. This discussion is not about you.

It's all about judgment and awareness. I'll err on the side of watching closely anyone that piques my interest. You err on the PC side that says it is impossible to ascertain any information by observation, based on appearance, either in physical characteristics or behavior. I see no reason to point out the fallacies of such a belief system.

Quite frankly, your assertion that my approach of watching anyone, based on well considered criteria, in any way adversely affects their rights is a bit far fetched. If you, (out of prejudice...pre judgment) want to label me a bigot, knock yourself out, but your assertion makes more of a point about you than me.

If you are interested in testing your theory, testing grounds full of folks I would watch and you would not are available in thousands of cities, worldwide. Personally, I'll avoid those areas and folks, and you can test to your heart's desire. We'll see who remains intact longer.

I still believe azredhawk44 acted reasonably and responsibly. Besides, he tolerated me profiling the contents of a backpack in Scottsdale, and didn't call me names.

twb
 
I'm not sure about what you mean by "my way of doing things"... Maybe you thought I was supporting profiling? Not sure...
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No, you went off on a rant about how improper it is to to think of anyone as being any different than anyone else, or to assume that someone's intentions are different simply due to their mannerisms. In doing so, you integrated the two and implied that it is improper to distrust anyone because of the way they are acting. I, among others, cannot agree.
You then went on to say;
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LE is still basically a reactionary tool (Jolly, correct me if I'm wrong here) in my estimation. If they don't get enough stuff, quickly enough, it does no good.
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To which I replied;
Doesn't that fly in the face of everything you just said?
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Because reaction doesn't prevent anything.
They just caught a pedophile outside Vegas (saw it on the early news - arresting cops made a statement). How? He was ACTING way out of sorts for a normal traffic stop. As he got more nervous, they questioned him in a way that broke his barriers. They knew something was up with this guy.

To date there has been no terrorist attack or averted attempted attack by terrorists of international origin which did not target NYC, LA, or DC.
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Wonderful. To date, no one has broken into my house in the middle of the night. They have however, done this in my home town. The people in question, domestic, foreign or whatever, are opportunists. Who would have ever thought of the federal builing on OK City as a target? Just because you live in Red Oak VA, or Scottsdale AZ doesn't mean you have nothing to worry about.

I don't think the OP's intention was to specifically target Middle Easterners as much as it was to include them into a; "Hey, this fits into a category/MO of problematic situations that raise a red flag with me" notion of self and public preservation.
This post started with a few small "hints" of profiling that were basically overlooked, and the post went on to discuss whether (original question) he acted appropriately. He mentioned his feelings, and how he reacted, but did not ask whether or not we all agree with his personal views regarding Mid-Easterners. I know it plays a role, but it's not the main point.
Truth be told, I'm as guilty as anyone else for letting it go off on a tangent. It seems we'll have to agree to disagree on this part of the issue and go back on topic, or waste a lot of time going back and forth.

azredhawk44 (not being a wise-guy here),
As for whether or not you over/underreacted, you have an obvious split because some will view it as preservatory, and some will see it as profiling. Is there anything to debate other than whether or not it was politically correct?
 
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azredhawk44 (not being a wise-guy here),
As for whether or not you over/underreacted, you have an obvious split because some will view it as preservatory, and some will see it as profiling. Is there anything to debate other than whether or not it was politically correct?
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Not really... I was looking mostly for an "appropriate level of response" type of answer.

Do I:
1. Go home and hole up in my nuclear shelter bunker with 100K rounds of .308 to fend off the zombies that are sure to come after the terrorist attack at walmart?
2. Whip out my ccw and level them on the spot?
3. Call 911 right away?
4. Notify store management, do my business, and leave?
5. Do nothing?

Each of those responses carries a political value as well as a situational value, and any response chosen then has political costs that are inherently tied to it. Discussion of the situational response cannot happen without discussion of the political forces backing each decision.

I appreciate hearing everyone's perspective on the issue, and I think that I responded with an appropriate decision. I'm happy with it... and those of you who aren't happy with it... can respond to your own situations that come up as you see fit.
 
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