Did I over-react or under-react?

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But guys... this felt just like either:
1) CAIR screwing around looking for a "racial profiling" lawsuit to latch onto, or
2) a dry run of an attack with a "martyr" and his handler.
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How do you know what either of those feel like? Have you ever been in such a situation before? The negative body language is a tough tell to discern when dealing with folks from other cultures. The guy with the pack may have been upset about something, possibly something his buddy did.

With that said, reporting suspicious people is a prudent thing to do, but ask yourself, would you have done the same thing if the guys were white?

Was your concern about the overly large backpack that it might be an explosive device? You seemed to really note the backpack and noted that you got really far away by going to the back of the store. Then apparently your curiosity got the best of you and you moved back into proximity of the men, close enough for a cell phone picture.

If you were concerned that it might be an explosive device being carried by suspicious people, then you under reacted. You should have removed yourself from the situation as quickly as possible. I don't mean moving to the back of the store, but getting out of and away from the store.

Remember, the best defense is to not be there (where the danger is).
 
So, I'm reading his wondering if it's firearms related. 'Doesn't take long for me to realize, ... no, it's not.

General Discussion Forum: A place for general discussion and Member hob-nobbing. Posts must be Firearms related.

Legal & Political Forum: Round table discussions range from the Bill of Rights, to concealed carry, to general political issues.

Moving to L&P. Please keep it civil.
 
very negative body language. Arms crossed, eyes moving all over
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That's my standard body language at Wally-World. By the time I get in there, I'm already pissed about having to park 100 yards away from the store doors (and I know I'll forget where I've parked); then, I discover that I have no idea where the item I need is located in the store, so that'll take 2 or 3 hundred more yards of walking; then I notice how long the check out lines are......

:D
 
I agree, trust your instinct.

If the guys are innocent, what did a few moments of self reflection cost you? In the end it was just a case of being in condition yellow, which serves us all.

If guilty, you might have averted a crime.
 
If anything I would suspect shoplifting, but then I never go to Walmart so don't know how people act there. Since I am not part of the Walmart culture I would not be able to notice out of place behavior. From what I can tell from watching Jerry Springer reruns there isn't all that much that wouldn't be considered normal in that culture. And I'm not being biased, just grouping Jerry Springer guests and Walmart shoppers in the same subset due to historical data.
 
Blah...racial and religious profiling IS EFFECTIVE...ask the Israelis. And just because you may pick someone out of a crowd because of their race/ethnicity does not mean you are racist.
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So you can tell someone's religion just by looking at them?

The Israeli's deal with fighting on a daily basis, the general populous of the US does not.

Racial profiling worked real well in OK didn't it?
 
If a LEO had walked up to them and asked for ID they started spouting off about theer rights as a US Citizen this board would be all over the LEO for harassment. Did they do one thing that was illegal, did they deserve to be reported to the FBI? Just because they didn't fit your ydea of a peaceful US citizen you jumped to conclusions the same way Sarah Brady would jump if she saw your gun.:barf:
 
The Israeli's deal with fighting on a daily basis, the general populous of the US does not.
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Hmm, yea, you're right. The $648 BILLION that was just approved for national security and military is just chump change to buy pretty roses for our national monuments. It COLDN'T be because there is a certain level of danger we face on a day-to-day basis.

Someone has a blanket over their eyes...

We are under a constant threat in today's world. We all must take due diligence to do our part in recognizing and reporting suspicious activity.

Do you remember the interview of the people who had contact with the 19 Hijackers of 9/11 on that day? Do you remember the ticket guy who dealt with Mohammad Atta? He said the Mr. Atta acted strangely, had evil in his eyes, and could tell Mr. Atta was full of hate...but he didn't report it and didnt act on his gut instinct. The people of Flight 93 may still be alive if he only did something. So don't go around telling people they shouldn't pass judgement and act on strangely acting folks.

Citizens of this country are first-response defense against terrorism and crime in our communities and on our streets. Taking reasonable action because of people's attitudes and actions can save lives! Reporting suspicious activity is HARDLY UNreasonable.
 
Someone mentioned 'racism'.
My definition of the phrase is "the belief that ones race/ethnicity is superior to anothers".
People can believe whatever they wish. Whatever opinions float their boat, they are fair game. If someone wants to believe we came from primordial soup, so what? If someone wants to believe there is life in outer space, so what? If someone wants to believe they are better than someone because of their skin color, so what?

The problem begins when people try to effect changes either through politics/government, or individually, that harrass or somehow negatively affect those of another race/ethnicity; as well as trying to make others adopt such beliefs.

You can't force someone to not hold on to an ignorant belief. So if someone wants to think all Mexicans are illegal immigrants who come here to commit crimes and poison this nation, let them have those ignorant beliefs.
Likewise, if someone wants to think anyone that looks middle eastern is a radical muslim jihadist, let them believe it. That belief alone is not hurting anyone.

Is racial profiling 'racist'? In my opinion, No. Was the OP of this thread racist? No. He saw something that made him suspicious. It wasnt simply the fact that the men appeared to be of middle eastern descent. It was their actions and body language that made him nervous about them.
 
CrazyIvan007 said:
Do you believe that Israelis are racist or otherwise prejudice against Palistinians?
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I understand this facet of your debate, but there is an even simpler application.

For example, what would be your thoughts getting caught up amid a large group of Klan nightriders?

Personally, my feeling would be intense fear. I have blue eyes, but I was born catholic, and I even openly espouse other more open-minded beliefs.

In short, I have as much to fear from the Klan as anyone.

And if the purpose of the nightriders was clearly to commit a violent act, I would shoot and shoot to kill based upon a racial profile and some very ugly history.

I say this because turn-about in a debate is truly fair-play. Now granted, this is the old "white crow gambit," however I doubt if I'll get much of a chance to define Roberts Rules of Order style postulates with an adrenaline charged phalanx of marauding racists.

And so it is here with some forms of racial profiling. If a middle-eastern gentleman is sharing a latte' with me at Border's Bookstore, no harm no foul.

That condition is totally different from a banger selling crack on a public street corner. A little common sense doesn't hurt.
 
bottom line is you did the right thing by reporting it...

it is the FBI and local law enforcements jobs to collect and follow up on anything like this. We even as a group don't have a clue as to how much or what information they are collecting on stuff like this. This could have been one sole event or it could be part of a whole lot just like it. If the two dudes in question are part of a problem then hopefully your info will help.

Not much different that the local cop at our neighborhood watch group telling everyone to report anything that looks suspect... don't worry about it...just report it... it may help catch a bad guy....
 
This thread made me LOL (and all thanks go to WA for keeping it rolling a bit longer..)

I can't imagine being someone who appears middle eastern in post 9/11 America. Jesus. Many, you know, are actually from other countries, including east Asia or India.

Al Quada, as I know from my private NSA source- and also from my own ultra special forces blackwater operatives- has been after Wal-Mart Super Centers for some time.

They hate us for our everyday low prices.

That is why whenever I am forced by my woman to visist a Wal-Mart, I bring my delta alpha tactical recon gear, and a good 30 ft of repelling cord (Wal-Marts have high ceilings). DO NOT ENTER THROUGH THE AUTOMATIC DOORS!! That is like walking into the meat grinder. You can scale to the roof by parking in the rear (make sure you bring a balacalva, digital camo or black tactical-choose wisely) and then drop down from the ceiling, while doing a 360 degree recon of the area.

If you don't see enough bibles and white folks, you'll probably want to abort. Radio whoever you're with, and simply drop down from the roof into your evac vehicle. Homeland security should be waiting on speed dail.

Oh, don't forget toothpaste or you'll hear about it later. (Found out the hardway :( )
 
Man, would China be pissed if they blew up a Wal-Mart. That's one of their main outlets here in the U.S.
As far as over-reacting, it's better to be safe then sorry. I'd say you did what you thought you had to under the situation.

P.S.
As a side note, maybe their QuickieMart isn't doing as much business lately because of the Wal-Mart so they thought they'd take out the competition.
 
azredhawk44 said:
...and they were walking slowly, taking notice of everything around them, same negative body language.
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That kind of describes me when I can't find what I'm looking for in a store. ;)
 
That is why whenever I am forced by my woman to visist a Wal-Mart, I bring my delta alpha tactical recon gear, and a good 30 ft of repelling cord (Wal-Marts have high ceilings). DO NOT ENTER THROUGH THE AUTOMATIC DOORS!! That is like walking into the meat grinder. You can scale to the roof by parking in the rear (make sure you bring a balacalva, digital camo or black tactical-choose wisely) and then drop down from the ceiling, while doing a 360 degree recon of the area.
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WOW - Did not realize you were a Mall Ninja! Did you get your training from the Master in Korea or locally from the CIA, FBI, Navy etc. Maybe even the finest possible training, K-Mart? :D
 
Anyone who thinks they are better than another based on race/ethnicity is racist. However, I don't think the term 'racist' is a bad thing. The only thing wrong is when someone takes their beliefs to doing harm to others or try to make others believe as they believe. Israelis and Palestinans have fought for thousands of years over land. They hate each other, and will never get along. This particular question is more an issue of war, and thats not quite the same thing. What I am talking about is when people of different ethnicitys reside in one area and the choice is there to do nothing, or do something. In war, there really is no choice.

Klan nightriders is a better example of what i am talking about. The Klan could hate all they want, but when they set out to terrorize those they hate, or hurt, or kill, thats wrong.

I think we have the right to hate or think we are better than others. But in todays modern society, we should be able to let those just remain beliefs and feelings, and not act upon them in ways that are detrimental to those we dislike.

Thats why I claim I am racist. I don't think its an insulting term.
A similar concept is homophobia. Why is it wrong to dislike people because of the way they are? Humans have the free will to like/dislike at their pleasure. The world will never be a melting pot of love and acceptance. What we should be doing is trying to show people that all the energy they expend in negative pursuits could be used in far better ways. Keep the ignorant beliefs, just dont act upon them. Thats all I'm trying to say.
 
hmmmmm


Always trust your training and instincts. Always.

Seek to rid yourself of negative bigotry, racism, etc.

Be ready to back up your beliefs, in any event.

TGIF.

That is all.
 
Because removing bigotry and racism will make me a better person right? But to whom does it make me better? To myself? Or to you?

Whats the difference between someone trying to make another not be bigoted/racist, vs someone trying to make another change their religion or spiritual beliefs? Many people get offended when someone tries to make them change their view of spirituality. Why shouldnt a person take offense when someone tells them they need to open their arms and embrace this rainbow world of different races, ethinicitys, sexual orientations, etc? You are asking that people give up the beliefs they were raised with, ignorant or not.

Its no different than people who are anti-gun. Let them have their ignorant beliefs that guns are the leading cause of death, the scourge of mankind, killers of babys, blah blah blah. But when they try to brainwash others into thinking like they do, i have a problem with it. Or when they try to pass legislation that takes away our rights, i also have a problem. its that action of trying to make others adopt their view of reality (Or the action of trying to eradicate those that are different) that is wrong.
 
I will respond, but not again to your inevitable reply. This isn't going to be a debate, because I am going to Happy Hour.

I said "Seek to...."

By your own post(s), you yourself recognized this as negative thinking/behavior. Just because Papaw and Dad believed it, doesn't mean you or anyone else should hold onto it.

I am a pagan, so I don't try to get any legislation passed on ethics or morality. I only assist people in finding their own way. You have to decide for yourself. You answer for all that thinking (action?) yourself.

Reread your posts. You acknowledged it as less than ideal behavior. If it was something you thought was good, then you would not have mentioned it, or mentioned it without spending several long paragraphs talking about the negativity. That is telling.

Flinching before pulling the trigger = bad. Seek to remove it.
Bigotry = bad. Seek to remove it.

Finito con esta "thead"-o, amigo.
Voy a "Happy Hour," con su permiso, amigo.
 
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