Did I have a pistol shipped illegally?
- Thread starter PSP
- Start date
hanno said:
As a side note, BATF posted a note to the SHOT show web site for last year stating that it was legal for an unlicensed individual to mail a handgun if it was disassembled since it would not be a functional firearm. I think a local agent posted that on his own, since I know that is not official policy nor does it comply with the law.
Nice of that agent to decide on his own that federal law doesn't mean anything. Of course, he will not be there in court if something goes bad if someone (not a dealer or manufacturer) tries to mail a handgun and gets caught.
Folks should read the actual statutes involved, not just what the ATF says the statutes mean.
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I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the knowledge of local BATFE agents. I had agents all the way through District tell me that one couldn't transfer a pre-86 f.a. weapon from a governmental agency to an individual, via Form 5. In such a transfer, there are no transfer taxes assessed.
Ssgt Savage
New member
hanno
NOTE: This post suggests that certain illegal actions are legal. It is being left in place for all to learn from. Normally, TFL would delete such a post.
You may want to check your facts. It's all in there. I did say that I did not condone shipping this way. I also said that I have seen it done and done it myself.
Live ammo IS HAZMAT. Soon it will be much more restricted. How scary is it hearing this from someone with 20 years in the industry? Not at all. I've seen weapons fall out of boxes at our hubs. They get packed right back up and shipped out. Perhaps we are more lax about it but SWOG is another option. The ATF is NOT the only player here, DOT plays a huge role as well.
As I said to finish off my first post I don't suggest doing this. I was just trying o get the guy who had an issue with his FFL some info. The policies and rates for ALL couriers will be changing in May. We'll see what they restrict next.
I think Hanno needs some time in the library! Hazmat items include all explosives as stated; "...any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped" Dangerous goods is where the ammo falls under. READ here
http://www.adazonusa.com/howtoshipammunitionorammo-a-45.html
Perhaps I should have been more specific. WRITTEN NOTICE is a packing slip, a BOL, an invoice, a manifest, etc... You can ship this way, call your courier and ask! Try reading before bashing especially if you don't know WTH you're talking about.
As far as shipping firearms back I simply let my family FFL do it for me when it's an entire weapon. If it's going back to the manufacturer or a private sale I break it down into parts, separate boxes, manifest the items in the boxes and ship them using almost any carrier. I would not suggest anyone doing the same.
NOTE: This post suggests that certain illegal actions are legal. It is being left in place for all to learn from. Normally, TFL would delete such a post.
You may want to check your facts. It's all in there. I did say that I did not condone shipping this way. I also said that I have seen it done and done it myself.
Live ammo IS HAZMAT. Soon it will be much more restricted. How scary is it hearing this from someone with 20 years in the industry? Not at all. I've seen weapons fall out of boxes at our hubs. They get packed right back up and shipped out. Perhaps we are more lax about it but SWOG is another option. The ATF is NOT the only player here, DOT plays a huge role as well.
As I said to finish off my first post I don't suggest doing this. I was just trying o get the guy who had an issue with his FFL some info. The policies and rates for ALL couriers will be changing in May. We'll see what they restrict next.
I think Hanno needs some time in the library! Hazmat items include all explosives as stated; "...any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped" Dangerous goods is where the ammo falls under. READ here
http://www.adazonusa.com/howtoshipammunitionorammo-a-45.html
Perhaps I should have been more specific. WRITTEN NOTICE is a packing slip, a BOL, an invoice, a manifest, etc... You can ship this way, call your courier and ask! Try reading before bashing especially if you don't know WTH you're talking about.
As far as shipping firearms back I simply let my family FFL do it for me when it's an entire weapon. If it's going back to the manufacturer or a private sale I break it down into parts, separate boxes, manifest the items in the boxes and ship them using almost any carrier. I would not suggest anyone doing the same.
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Because someone does something in violation of federal law and gets away with it does not make it a good idea.
You said it it could be done legally. If you don't condone it why post at all? Giving another person advice on how to do something illegal and stupid is not much help so why do it?.
The only legal way to ship a firearm interstate to a nonlicensee legally is to declare it as a firearm. A person can break the firearm down and ship it if he declares the frame as a firearm but what is the point? It is still being shipped as a firearm and must be declared as a firearm.
Here, a little help, this is the federal statute I posted previously:
"18 USC 922
"Sec. 922(e)
Nothing there about "parts", it clearly says "without written notice to the carrier that such firearm is being transported or shipped;"
I think most folks will be able to judge the quality of your "advice" based on that statement alone.
Great advice if you are trying to help him into a federal pen.
As regards, ammo, I said nothing about ammo. Just another of your many, many, errors. Perhaps you need to spend some time getting help with your reading comprehension.
You admit to doing something dumb but then state you would not suggest "anyone else doing the same." Then why post it at all? Anyone who does this is looking at serious federal penalties. A frame is a firearm. Go ahead and break it down if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy. If you ship a frame (interstate, to a nonlicensee) you have to declare it as a firearm. End of story.
Written notice requires that the shipper be notified that a firearm is being shipped. Ship it as a firearm and declare it as a firearm. Easy to do.
Shipping "parts" makes no sense at all (unless one is only shipping a nonframe part). Shipping "parts" without declaring the frame as a firearm is a violation of federal law. Period.
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Ssgt Savage
New member
NOTE: This post suggests that certain illegal actions are legal. It is being left in place for all to learn from. Normally, TFL would delete such a post.
Hanno. Are you the over posting analytical type or just one to pick at every post? I am sorry but you are incorrect. I was not clear enough so to settle you down and save you some ammo let me clear a few things up here. Firstly, thanks for the warm welcome from your three weeks tenure here. So far it's been great! You seem to have the time and he upper hand on the posting. I don't even know how to use the cool quotes you did on me yet...perhaps it's a senior member thing or I need to use html. Let me clear you up a bit so you can go out and research this weekend.
PSP living in the same state as I posted; "My understanding is that the BATF only requires the pistol be shipped to an FFL, logged in and background checks made. Is there some requirement that a privately sold pistol goes through an FFL on both ends? Eventually I jumped through enough hoops that my dealer was happy and I got the gun, but the incident really pissed me off. Should I be pissed, or did I do something wrong that put the dealer in jeopardy with the BATF?"
His transaction was legit. I buy and sell on gunbroker as well. You have to complete the forms, that goes in the box as a packing slip, usually on the outside or in the form of a manifest read from a barcode on the package. He was asking if it had to go from one FFL to another, not one individual to another.
You said ~ "The only legal way to ship a firearm interstate to a nonlicensee legally is to declare it as a firearm. A person can break the firearm down and ship it if he declares the frame as a firearm but what is the point? It is still being shipped as a firearm and must be declared as a firearm."
My post said;
"Lastly, there is a way around everything, legally. Look at OJ! If you take your slide off and ship the slide in one box and the frame in another, even if both boxes are shipped within a larger box (SWOG) you can ship it as parts with almost all carriers. SWOG - Ship with other goods, is a way to manifest the contents of the box, e.g. put a packing slip on it folded up saying box #1 slide assembly for Hi Point (good choice for returns) and box #2 frame assembly. DO NOT SHIP LIVE AMMO, this is HAZMAT and you will get caught. Our facilities have dogs, detectors, guards, etc..."
You quoted; "It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped;" from 18 USC 922, do you know what a CN22 is? (search engine going)
Granted the OJ joke was bad, but it was that a joke. Point I WROTE , "a way to manifest the contents of the box, e.g. put a packing slip on it folded up saying box #1 slide assembly for Hi Point (good choice fo returns) and box #2 frame assembly..."
Manifests, BOL's (Bills of Lading), exposed packing slips and written labels are written declarations to the big carriers EXCLUDING the USPS, you have to let the FFL ship for you usually if you use USPS ad he uses a form he files and sends it certified or registered as WRITTEN DECLARATIONS. Ever fill out a three part NCR stick on form for an overnight? Shipped back to a dealer? WRITTEN NOTICE. We didn't get into ATF because I posted a link. Not to mention the ATF has their laws, the TSA theirs, then the DOT comes into play which you quoted and there's OSHA, a hundred other counsels and boards governing all of this.
I don't suggest breaking down a pistol to call it parts as I have seen many individuals do and FFL's because they are skipping out on a tarriff fee or a surcharge usually and if you ship it that way you can avoid the fee as parts but get hit on the back end. I also didn't suggest it because no one tore my post apart as you did. You won't see agents in black BDU's drop out of helicopters into your yard or bridge as it may be. This is regulated by the carrier. No one is going to the state farm for what I posted.
You said; "As regards, ammo, I said nothing about ammo. Just another of your many, many, errors that I analyzed since I have no life. Perhaps you need to spend some time getting help with your reading comprehension."
I believe CraigC shouted out that ammo was not considered a Hazardous Material but in fact it is as it falls under dangerous goods and explosives in some cases and must be treated as such. I don't even want to go into that, use Google.
I posted; " As far as shipping firearms back I simply let my family FFL do it for me when it's an entire weapon. If it's going back to the manufacturer or a private sale I break it down into parts, separate boxes, manifest the items in the boxes and ship them using almost any carrier. I would not suggest anyone doing the same.
You said;
"You admit to doing something dumb but then state you would not suggest "anyone else doing the same." Then why post it at all? Anyone who does this is looking at serious federal penalties. A frame is a firearm. Go ahead and break it down if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy. If you ship a frame (interstate, to a nonlicensee) you have to declare it as a firearm. End of story."
Nothing I do is dumb, just ask me. I would not suggest anyone use any other method than their FFL or if you open an account, gunbroker. Which this post was all about. I was not clear on the private sale, I have shipped as parts but guess what I manifested them, declaring to the carrier that there was a GUN FRAME inside one box.
I suggest you check out the websites for the ATF, FBI, DOT, DMV, TSA and all the couriers you can think of before attempting to discredit someone who has much more experience in this area.
I can't believe I wasted this much time replying to this but since you made it a point to attempt to discredit me I had no choice. Am I accurate in saying you are an active DCC member?
So, admin gods, is this is how it is at the firingline? Are there no troll patrols?
Hanno. Are you the over posting analytical type or just one to pick at every post? I am sorry but you are incorrect. I was not clear enough so to settle you down and save you some ammo let me clear a few things up here. Firstly, thanks for the warm welcome from your three weeks tenure here. So far it's been great! You seem to have the time and he upper hand on the posting. I don't even know how to use the cool quotes you did on me yet...perhaps it's a senior member thing or I need to use html. Let me clear you up a bit so you can go out and research this weekend.
PSP living in the same state as I posted; "My understanding is that the BATF only requires the pistol be shipped to an FFL, logged in and background checks made. Is there some requirement that a privately sold pistol goes through an FFL on both ends? Eventually I jumped through enough hoops that my dealer was happy and I got the gun, but the incident really pissed me off. Should I be pissed, or did I do something wrong that put the dealer in jeopardy with the BATF?"
His transaction was legit. I buy and sell on gunbroker as well. You have to complete the forms, that goes in the box as a packing slip, usually on the outside or in the form of a manifest read from a barcode on the package. He was asking if it had to go from one FFL to another, not one individual to another.
You said ~ "The only legal way to ship a firearm interstate to a nonlicensee legally is to declare it as a firearm. A person can break the firearm down and ship it if he declares the frame as a firearm but what is the point? It is still being shipped as a firearm and must be declared as a firearm."
My post said;
"Lastly, there is a way around everything, legally. Look at OJ! If you take your slide off and ship the slide in one box and the frame in another, even if both boxes are shipped within a larger box (SWOG) you can ship it as parts with almost all carriers. SWOG - Ship with other goods, is a way to manifest the contents of the box, e.g. put a packing slip on it folded up saying box #1 slide assembly for Hi Point (good choice for returns) and box #2 frame assembly. DO NOT SHIP LIVE AMMO, this is HAZMAT and you will get caught. Our facilities have dogs, detectors, guards, etc..."
You quoted; "It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped;" from 18 USC 922, do you know what a CN22 is? (search engine going)
Granted the OJ joke was bad, but it was that a joke. Point I WROTE , "a way to manifest the contents of the box, e.g. put a packing slip on it folded up saying box #1 slide assembly for Hi Point (good choice fo returns) and box #2 frame assembly..."
Manifests, BOL's (Bills of Lading), exposed packing slips and written labels are written declarations to the big carriers EXCLUDING the USPS, you have to let the FFL ship for you usually if you use USPS ad he uses a form he files and sends it certified or registered as WRITTEN DECLARATIONS. Ever fill out a three part NCR stick on form for an overnight? Shipped back to a dealer? WRITTEN NOTICE. We didn't get into ATF because I posted a link. Not to mention the ATF has their laws, the TSA theirs, then the DOT comes into play which you quoted and there's OSHA, a hundred other counsels and boards governing all of this.
I don't suggest breaking down a pistol to call it parts as I have seen many individuals do and FFL's because they are skipping out on a tarriff fee or a surcharge usually and if you ship it that way you can avoid the fee as parts but get hit on the back end. I also didn't suggest it because no one tore my post apart as you did. You won't see agents in black BDU's drop out of helicopters into your yard or bridge as it may be. This is regulated by the carrier. No one is going to the state farm for what I posted.
You said; "As regards, ammo, I said nothing about ammo. Just another of your many, many, errors that I analyzed since I have no life. Perhaps you need to spend some time getting help with your reading comprehension."
I believe CraigC shouted out that ammo was not considered a Hazardous Material but in fact it is as it falls under dangerous goods and explosives in some cases and must be treated as such. I don't even want to go into that, use Google.
I posted; " As far as shipping firearms back I simply let my family FFL do it for me when it's an entire weapon. If it's going back to the manufacturer or a private sale I break it down into parts, separate boxes, manifest the items in the boxes and ship them using almost any carrier. I would not suggest anyone doing the same.
You said;
"You admit to doing something dumb but then state you would not suggest "anyone else doing the same." Then why post it at all? Anyone who does this is looking at serious federal penalties. A frame is a firearm. Go ahead and break it down if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy. If you ship a frame (interstate, to a nonlicensee) you have to declare it as a firearm. End of story."
Nothing I do is dumb, just ask me. I would not suggest anyone use any other method than their FFL or if you open an account, gunbroker. Which this post was all about. I was not clear on the private sale, I have shipped as parts but guess what I manifested them, declaring to the carrier that there was a GUN FRAME inside one box.
I suggest you check out the websites for the ATF, FBI, DOT, DMV, TSA and all the couriers you can think of before attempting to discredit someone who has much more experience in this area.
I can't believe I wasted this much time replying to this but since you made it a point to attempt to discredit me I had no choice. Am I accurate in saying you are an active DCC member?
So, admin gods, is this is how it is at the firingline? Are there no troll patrols?
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TheBluesMan
Moderator Emeritus
Troll patrol has arrived. Adjustments made. Please, for all of you still able, continue.
Oh, and just so everybody is clear on this:
It is illegal for a non-licensee (read: non-FFL) to receive, via USPS, any shipping company or carrier, a handgun or handgun frame from another state. It is also illegal to ship a handgun to a non-licensee in another state. Exceptions may include shipping to: a gunsmith, the factory, yourself, etc.
Oh, and just so everybody is clear on this:
It is illegal for a non-licensee (read: non-FFL) to receive, via USPS, any shipping company or carrier, a handgun or handgun frame from another state. It is also illegal to ship a handgun to a non-licensee in another state. Exceptions may include shipping to: a gunsmith, the factory, yourself, etc.
Ssgt Savage, please do not PM me. Three of your insulting drivel filled PMs are quite enough. I have deleted them and will not respond to your PMs. If I have anything to say to you, I will do it in public on this forum.
Regarding your "comment" that you now have my email address (was that a threat?), emails are easy enough to block. It would be much better for you if you just moved on.
I imagine that most folks reading this thread have enough information to decide for themselves which, if any, "advice" to follow.
Regarding your "comment" that you now have my email address (was that a threat?), emails are easy enough to block. It would be much better for you if you just moved on.
I imagine that most folks reading this thread have enough information to decide for themselves which, if any, "advice" to follow.
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