Did I have a pistol shipped illegally?

P

PSP

New member
I recently bought a used pistol from a guy on GunBroker. He is not an FFL. I went to a local dealer and obtained a transfer letter from him, mailed it to the seller and all is well...I thought. When the pistol arrives the dealer goes ballistic on me! He claims I can't do this unless the seller is a FFL, or the gun comes from an FFL. He refused to hand over the gun.

My understanding is that the BATF only requires the pistol be shipped to an FFL, logged in and background checks made. Is there some requirement that a privately sold pistol goes through an FFL on both ends? Eventually I jumped through enough hoops that my dealer was happy and I got the gun, but the incident really pissed me off. Should I be pissed, or did I do something wrong that put the dealer in jeopardy with the BATF?

FWIW, this is the first time I've used this paticular dealer to handle a transfer.
 
Shipping firearms

NOTE: This post contains erroneous information.

I may be wrong, but I think the only place a gun owner can ship to is to the factory for repair.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Some FFL holders have misunderstood the law, or have interpreted the ATF's warnings about knowing who is supplying the pistol very broadly, but it is legal for a non-FFL holder to ship to an out of state FFL. Some FFLs refuse to accept such shipments.
Out of curiosity, what hoops did the FFL on your end make you jump through to satisfy him? If it were illegal, you can't unring a bell.
 
Unless there's a piece of this story I'm missing, you've done nothing wrong.

Federal law states that out-of-state transfers between private owners must be conducted through an FFL (i.e. one private citizen can ship a firearm to a dealer who then officially "sells" or transfers that firearm to another private citizen). I myself have sold several firearms through Gunbroker in this manner and have never received any trouble/complaints.
 
Like others have said you did nothing wrong. Anyone can ship to: an FFL, manufacturer, or licensed gunsmith. You can directly receive shipments (including handguns) from gunsmiths and manufacturers.

Any time I have shipped a handgun to an FFL they have always wanted me to enclose a copy of my driver's license in the box.
 
A private individual can ship directly to an FFL. He should include a photocopy of his DL so that the weapon may be booked in properly.

Your FFL is wrong about the law. Some FFLs will, as a matter of company policy, require shipment only from another licensee, as this avoids the nightmare hassle of a firearm showing up on your doorstep with no book-in info inside and no return address other than "Fred's Pack 'N' Ship #328".
 
As the others have said, you were right and your dealer was wrong. Some FFL's just don't like receiving guns from individuals, others don't mind. It's a simple phone call for them to make sure they're not stolen. Some dealers are completely ignorant of how to do an interstate transfer. I had one tell me he had to collect sales tax on a used gun bought from an individual or he wouldn't do the transfer. Took my business elsewhere.
 
I have only found 1 FFL in Atlanta that will accept a shipment from a non-FFL. While it's legal to do so, many just won't - period. It's very important to know your FFL and how they do business - before you buy anything...
 
Follow up to my original post

Out of curiosity, what hoops did the FFL on your end make you jump through to satisfy him? If it were illegal, you can't unring a bell.
Click to expand...

This is really why I am so pissed off. The dealer did this rant and rave in front of a large number of people, which was quite embarassing. He then turns around and asks for "proof" the seller actually owned the gun via an email. The seller did respond quickly and professionally. The bell was in fact unrung.

Get yourself a new FFL; the guy is wrong. Any non-FFL can ship a gun to an FFL.
Click to expand...

I was using this one because the FFL I normally use was closed for a few weeks. Not only was it a pain in the ass, but it cost me more money. I'l not use them again.

It's very important to know your FFL and how they do business - before you buy anything...
Click to expand...

This is a very active dealer, transfering in many guns for people, and assumed (yes, I know...) he knew the regulations, but I've never used him because he charges more than another local FFLs. My only previous business was use of the range the operates.

Unless there's a piece of this story I'm missing, you've done nothing wrong.
Click to expand...

Nothing withheld. I asked him in person to do the transfer, he provided his letter for me to mail,, which I sent along with payment to the seller. I was shocked to get this tongue lashing from him when I returned to pick up the gun. As far as I knew I'd done nothing out of the ordinary. Another employee told me ALL transfers have an FFL letter coming in with them.

Thanks for the replies. The FFL I normally use is in the process of opening his own range and I suspect all of my business will go his way in the future. Had this dealer wanted more documentation and calmly explained that to me I don't think I'd have minded. It was his "you stupid moron" attack on me that left me a bit bitter and wondering of myself, "did I have a brain fart and forget something here?".
 
18 USC 922(a) It shall be unlawful—

(2) for any importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed under the provisions of this chapter to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that—

(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;

I'm touchy enough about being insulted and berated by anyone that I'd have to resist the urge to shove a copy of this paragraph, highlighted with very stinky highlighter ink, right up his nose.
 
My guess is that The gun arrived to your FFL Vis US POST OFFICE ? that is illegal. dude sending is not a FFL, and if he used your FFL's FFL to send post office, that is not legal... only a FFL can send handgun via Post Office.
 
My guess is that The gun arrived to your FFL Vis US POST OFFICE ? that is illegal. dude sending is not a FFL, and if he used your FFL's FFL to send post office, that is not legal... only a FFL can send handgun via Post Office.
Click to expand...

That is a valid point and good question. However in my case the seller shipped via FedEX.
 
He then turns around and asks for "proof" the seller actually owned the gun via an email. The seller did respond quickly and professionally. The bell was in fact unrung.
Click to expand...
Not exactly. If it were illegal for the seller to ship the gun without going through an FFL on his end, it wouldn't matter whether or not the seller owned the pistol, it would have been illegal either way. Now, if the FFL's complaint was that he didn't have appropriate documentation to make a correct and verifiable entry into his bound book, perhaps the seller could have rectified that issue. However, his complaint was that the actual shipping of the gun was illegal.
My suspicion is that the FFL thought it was illegal for a non-licensee to ship the gun out of state. After he jumped on you with both feet, he did some research and discovered that it was, in fact, legal, as long as he could make an appropriate entry into his bound book. So, he asked the questions he needed to ask to make the appropriate entry, and completed the transfer. Somewhere along the way he should have figured out that he was wrong in his original assertion that the shipping was illegal. I gather no apology was forthcoming.
 
Shipping

NOTE: This post contains erroneous information.

I believe you can ship a handgun via U.S. Post Office - if you send it overnight delivery. That's all the ATF requires. All handguns must be shipped overnight and the receiver must have an FFL. That's my understanding.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I believe you can ship a handgun via U.S. Post Office - if you send it overnight delivery. That's all the ATF requires. All handguns must be shipped overnight and the receiver must have an FFL. That's my understanding.
Click to expand...

Handguns can be mailed only by manufacturers and dealers and only between themselves. This is a matter of federal law. If a person wants to mail a handgun, that person can take it to his FFL dealer and have the FFL dealer mail it to another FFL dealer.

The law:
Section 1715. Firearms as nonmailable; regulations Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable and shall not be deposited in or carried by the mail or delivered by any officer or employee of the Postal Service. Such articles may be conveyed in the mail, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe, for use in connection with their official duty, to officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps; to officers of the National Guard or militia of a state, territory, commonwealth, possession, or district; to officers of the United States or of a state, territory, or district whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitments; to employees of the Postal Service; to officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States; and to watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a state, territory, commonwealth, possession, or district. Such articles also may be conveyed in the mail to manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein in customary trade shipments, including such articles for repairs or replacement of parts, from one to the other, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe. Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail according to the direction thereon, or at any place to which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any pistol, revolver, or firearm declared nonmailable by this section, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
18 U.S.C. 1715

Congress gave the USPS authority to promulgate regulations regarding the shipping of handguns between manufacturers and bona fide dealers. The USPS did so with the Domestic Mail Manual.
http://pe.usps.gov/

The Domestic Mail Manual defines manufacturers and dealers as: "Licensed manufacturer and licensed dealer mean, respectively, a manufacturer of firearms or a bona fide dealer of firearms, duly licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury, under the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618), 18 USC 921, et seq."

Here is the language from the PS Form a person must sign to mail a handgun:

"The undersigned is a manufacturer of firearms or bona fide dealer therein, and the parcels presented for mailing herewith are customary trade shipments or other articles for repair or replacement of parts. To the best of my knowledge and belief, the addresses are manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein."
 
Just to clear things up: Hanno is absolutely right as pertains to the UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE.

It is not a crime for a private citizen to ship a handgun to a dealer via a private shipping company (ala UPS or Fedex. Though last I checked UPS was refusing to ship handguns).
 
Just to clear things up: Hanno is absolutely right as pertains to the UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE.
Click to expand...

Thanks, though I'm sure what needed to be cleared up since I responded to a post regarding mailing handguns and I specifically spoke to mailing a handgun via the USPS. I said nothing about shipping a handgun via UPS or FEDEX.

Shipping a handgun through UPS or FEDEX by a non-FFl, is a whole different thing.

Nevertheless, the important thing is for folks to be aware of the law as it pertains to mailing handguns. Time spent in a fed pen is not a good thing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top