I gotta admit I am disturbed by the intense rationalization that goes on among LEOs and those sympathetic to them on these boards. Sure, being a cop is a tough, dirty job, but guess what? No one is forcing you to do it. And if you CHOOSE to do it, you do so knowing there can be grave consequences if you screw the pooch. Innocent people can and do die. I don't think it's too much to ask that you be held to AT LEAST as high a bar as say a civilian CCW permit holder. I know that if a CCW permit holder shot an unarmed man that was not a threat, most juries would and should convict that CCW holder of at least negligent homicide. And supposedly cops are "better trained" and have a higher level of expertise than the civilian CCW holder.
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Diallo verdict
- Thread starter aztec777
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TOMBERGSTR
New member
If any one of you has been in the area of "friendly fire" in Country you know what the outcome was . A mistake in a hostile enviornment . I have seen more fire power directed at a wild boar than you could believe . I have been on the wrong end of a mistake and know it can happen . I think that these guys should not carry guns . Some things are learned the hard way . How about the reverse . The new replacement that gets into a firefight and can't shoot back . Just lays on the ground crying . The Company Commander will surely ship him out but his inaction may have cost lives .
You don't know these things until "it" hits the fan . Another thought . If 4 guys should go to jail for killing 1 person how much time should 1 person serve for killing 4 people while driving drunk ? If history of these things are any indication each guy should spend about a week in jail .
PanzerFuehrer : Sie sind richtig .
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TOM SASS MEMBER AMERICAN LEGION MEMBER NRA MEMBER
You don't know these things until "it" hits the fan . Another thought . If 4 guys should go to jail for killing 1 person how much time should 1 person serve for killing 4 people while driving drunk ? If history of these things are any indication each guy should spend about a week in jail .
PanzerFuehrer : Sie sind richtig .
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TOM SASS MEMBER AMERICAN LEGION MEMBER NRA MEMBER
Destructo6
New member
Well, I'm going to weigh in one last time on this.
The cops made a criminal mistake. Not premeditated murder, but a criminal mistake.
The prosecuters don't seem to have given the jury a reasonable array of charges. I don't know if they were trying to look tough by only allowing severe charges or if they were trying get the cops off the hook entirely. They made a huge mistake as well.
The only thing I have to say about Sharpton is that he's unnecessarily injecting race into this. It's a failure of LE tactics problem with wich every citizen should be concerned.
The cops made a criminal mistake. Not premeditated murder, but a criminal mistake.
The prosecuters don't seem to have given the jury a reasonable array of charges. I don't know if they were trying to look tough by only allowing severe charges or if they were trying get the cops off the hook entirely. They made a huge mistake as well.
The only thing I have to say about Sharpton is that he's unnecessarily injecting race into this. It's a failure of LE tactics problem with wich every citizen should be concerned.
Gwinnydapooh
Retired Screen Name
OK, I agree that we as civilians would not get away with this shooting. Rightly so, in fact. BUT we as civilians would also not be expected to accost the man. We would have NO responsibility to get out of the car, to approach him or to bring him in. They did. I can't count the number of times I've been told on TFL that you simply can't apply LEO force standards to civilians. I'm surprised no one has brought this up. As a civilian, I would not have to accost Mr. Diallo. If I did, and I thought he was armed, I would be considered perfectly reasonable if I ran away. Thus I would not have shot Mr. Diallo but the cops don't have my options.
As for all the other incidents, those of you who are thinking this through may remember from the famous LEO threads of week or two ago that I said that I don't generally trust cops and I never met a good one who worked for my hometown. I'm far from an LEO cheerleader. But if you want to hang these four over a justified shooting because you don't like a trend you see developing nationally, you should be examining your real dedication to truth and fairness.
Finally, I think we're being a little hard on Muscles. He and I don't get along very well but if what he's told us about his past is true, then of course he's going to be biased. Doesn't make it right but there's no call for too much flaming there.
That said, no one has told me yet how training should be changed so that someone who mistakenly pulls out a gunlike object in the dark won't get shot. Again, what sort of training will you give to cops so that they can tell two black, boxy objects of similar size apart in the dark, in a suspect's hand?
As for all the other incidents, those of you who are thinking this through may remember from the famous LEO threads of week or two ago that I said that I don't generally trust cops and I never met a good one who worked for my hometown. I'm far from an LEO cheerleader. But if you want to hang these four over a justified shooting because you don't like a trend you see developing nationally, you should be examining your real dedication to truth and fairness.
Finally, I think we're being a little hard on Muscles. He and I don't get along very well but if what he's told us about his past is true, then of course he's going to be biased. Doesn't make it right but there's no call for too much flaming there.
That said, no one has told me yet how training should be changed so that someone who mistakenly pulls out a gunlike object in the dark won't get shot. Again, what sort of training will you give to cops so that they can tell two black, boxy objects of similar size apart in the dark, in a suspect's hand?
panzerfuehrer
New member
Vielen dank, Tombergstr.
As one working in LE, I am glad I'm not in their shoes. Their careers and lives are effectively ruined. However, lets not get into the lynch-mob mentality gang until you have walked a mile in those boots.
Pig, I have been a soldier and store clerk, as well as LE, and am here to tell you that no job is more consistently dangerous. As a soldier going into battle, at least you have a pretty good idea of when things will turn ugly. Further, if "pigs" is your LEO label of choice, then it is no small wonder that you don't get along with them.
McGee, was the OC before or after you "restrained" this other LEO, or a separate incident entirely? BTW, it was only 19 hits; let's not exaggerate.
Ivanhoe - training does not end at the academy. Here as in most places, additional training hours are mandatory annually to keep one's certification.
I do not rationalize or apologize, ladies and gentleman. There was no criminal intent here. This was a tragedy, but those happen every day and are CIVIL cases. I am sure the grieving family will receive a fat settlement from the city, and their lawyers an equally fat cut.
I suggest that we try to separate emotion from fact here. Racism? Prove it, and let's do a little better than "cops were white, victim was black, so it must be so".
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Panzerführer
Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.
As one working in LE, I am glad I'm not in their shoes. Their careers and lives are effectively ruined. However, lets not get into the lynch-mob mentality gang until you have walked a mile in those boots.
Pig, I have been a soldier and store clerk, as well as LE, and am here to tell you that no job is more consistently dangerous. As a soldier going into battle, at least you have a pretty good idea of when things will turn ugly. Further, if "pigs" is your LEO label of choice, then it is no small wonder that you don't get along with them.
McGee, was the OC before or after you "restrained" this other LEO, or a separate incident entirely? BTW, it was only 19 hits; let's not exaggerate.
Ivanhoe - training does not end at the academy. Here as in most places, additional training hours are mandatory annually to keep one's certification.
I do not rationalize or apologize, ladies and gentleman. There was no criminal intent here. This was a tragedy, but those happen every day and are CIVIL cases. I am sure the grieving family will receive a fat settlement from the city, and their lawyers an equally fat cut.
I suggest that we try to separate emotion from fact here. Racism? Prove it, and let's do a little better than "cops were white, victim was black, so it must be so".
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Panzerführer
Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.
I am not rationalizing, making excuses or whatever for these fellas. They made a mistake, pure and simple. I have no tolerance for bad police. Zero. A mistake is not that. Most of the arguments I see against these fellas fall into the same category as the anti-2nd amendment croud, basically "I think it is this way so..."
The point of an incident like this should not be to attack these guys who made a mistake (Diallo made mistakes too), but to try to find a way to prevent this from happening again. No one is saying that a mistake was not made. I feel it was not a criminal mistake, and evidently at least one mixed race jury agrees.
Another thing that bothers me is the injection of race into this. Ones race (either Good Guy or Bad Guy) shouldn't matter. This was not a hate crime, it was a mistake. You have never read me mention any ministers names or any of that. These guys just made a mistake, their race is just an excuse to promote hate.
The point of an incident like this should not be to attack these guys who made a mistake (Diallo made mistakes too), but to try to find a way to prevent this from happening again. No one is saying that a mistake was not made. I feel it was not a criminal mistake, and evidently at least one mixed race jury agrees.
Another thing that bothers me is the injection of race into this. Ones race (either Good Guy or Bad Guy) shouldn't matter. This was not a hate crime, it was a mistake. You have never read me mention any ministers names or any of that. These guys just made a mistake, their race is just an excuse to promote hate.
Rob Pincus
New member
This thread is being closed.
Thew discussion belongs in the LEGAL forum and a thread was started there first.
Thew discussion belongs in the LEGAL forum and a thread was started there first.
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